This was before the engine was even broke in. His new dynos are running around 333!!!!!!! after only a lid and cutout.

Anyways, here's the flat torque curve I was talking about

 

you can hardly call that torque curve a curve! more like a plateau!

 

That torque curve is as flat as an Illinois cornfeild (all the IL guys will appreciate that one) not to mention proves the underrating GM gives them. Since when does 320 Crank HP = 305 RWHP? Either they have a magical friction free powertrain or somone is lying about HP! Isn't the general rule of thumb figure in a 20-30% drivetrain loss? At a 20% powertrain loss, 305 RWHP = 381 at the crank! Jeesh! Oh well makes for cheaper insurance. (Not that I'm complaining. Guys think about 10 years from now when you'll be able to be a used LS1 car for 10 grand or less!!)

 

that comes to about 350 hp at the crank. you figurea loss of 16-18% for manuals and 20-22% for autos. you have to remeber the new vettes are rated at 350 hp. the only difference between the 2 being ones a four bolt and ones a two bolt, and the exhaust manifolds bein different only cause of clearance issues. all the LT1, L98, and LS1 f-bodys are underated due to gms rule of "nothing can beat the vette." just look at a TTA.

 

Here's an old article of a 98 TA vs. a 98 Vette

 

ok, I swear I posted on this thread last night... If something is going on here I'd like for a PM or E-mail from the Moderators.

my buddie's 02 WS6 made 337/352 at the wheels w/ FIPK and cutout. That was a week ago. It's now got ARE Stage two heads and cam. Makes 460 something now. oh, and it's got 1100 miles on it.

 

Hopefully I can duplicate those kind of numbers in my '98. Im planning on going with a FIPK and SLP loudmouth at first. Maybe I'll have them toss a cutout on while I'm at it

LS1!! :rockon:

 

I thought I read somewhere(GM high tech performance?), that the f-bodys had a slightly better cam than the corvettes to make up for the lost power in the exhaust. It was only a few deg. of dur. and a tiny bit of lift.

nick

 

The FIPK really is something to be marveled at... that carbon fiber filer is INSANE.

 

i just wanted to let u know that there is nothing different about the blocks both are six bolt main.

 

From what i hear (GM high tech performance), the best (easist)way to gain HP in an LS1 is to let them break in. If i remember right, some people have seen 20 +/- hp increase w/o even toching the car, except for driving it. I think that the HP increase stops after around 10K or some insanly high mileage like that.

 

there has to be some kinda power difference between the fbody and the vette. GMHTPs Evan Smith tested a Z28 and went 12.89. He then tested a C5 and went 12.66. the mph on the Vette was higher too (i cant remember exactly what they were). both cars were 6 speeds. while ill admit the fbodys are VERY underrated, because of the Vette's intake and exhaust differences, it is slightly faster.

 

Correction. Because of the Vette's aerodynamics and lighter weight it's faster. BTW, my friend's SS hasn't lost a race to a Vette yet.....except heavily modded ones.

 

explain this then, why did GMHTP run faster with a base Z28, than the SS? because its heavier than the standard Z, and the ram air hood is not functional like the earlier LT1 versions. the 99 Z went 12.89, and the 99 SS went 13.27. the Vettes your friend raced obviously couldnt drive. if they could they should have been ahead of your friend. maybe his SS is modded?

 

stupid double post

 

TPI,

Granted, I don't remember the exact weather conditions for each test, but the weather has a huge impact on E.T.s. I know that for the Z28, the conditions were near ideal, leading to a then unheard of sub 13 sec run. I do have to agree that the ram air system on the ss sucks, very ineficeint design, but it is functional.

Also, there are car to car differences, tolerance stack ups can have a huge affect on what a car will run. I heard of one guy who had an anniversary edition TA and a regular TA of the same year (1999?). The AE TA was consistantly faster and got like 2mpg better economy out of otherwise identical cars.

I think thats enough out of me for now.

 

Number 1. You're sadly mistaken on the SS hood being non-functional. His 2002 SS's hood is FULLY functional.

Number 2. We're not talking about 99's here. 2002's have a different clutch and the LS6 intake. His STOCK (before lid and cutout) ran a 12.8X and with just lid and cutout he's at the 12.7's with no traction. He just now put some Nittos on it, and we're waiting to hit the track.

 

BTW...I hate this "My friend ran" w/o backing it up stuff. I'll post timeslips if you want.

 

every single SS or WS6 LS1 car ive ever worked on has not had functional ram air. there is no seal around the underside hood opening, or the air filter (like on the LT1 ram air system). not to mention, both LS1 fbodies have lids over the air filters! how is that ram air? and the SS hood duct doesnt even line up with the filter! the filter is at the front, and the duct is in the middle! if you look at the underside of the hood on WS6 cars, there is a very small hole where MAYBE some air can get through. for proof, GMHTP also states this fact... (july 98 issue) :"one of the possible explanations we uncovered for the difference in power is that unlike the 96' and 97' versions of the SS camaro, the 98' does not have a positive seal connecting the cold air duct to the air filter assembly. The cold air ducts pull air around the front of the hood and dump it off into the engine compartment just ahead of the filter, allowing it to mix freely with hot underhood air." and as for the 2002 comparison, if both the Z and SS got the new intake and clutch, the difference between the 2 should be the same as the differences in the 99 versions.

 

The vettes arn't faster because they have more power they are much lighter and more aerodynamic then the f-bodys. Gm wouldn't ever pubicly admit to another car they made being faster than the vette. Why do you think the grand national went away?? The vettes seem to be just a little slower than the f-bodys. I have seen the car ovrclck350 is taking about and it ran a 12.98@110 bone stock off the showroom floor. No mods were nessary to run that time. We checked the car out before it went on the track the only thing we did was remove the filter to get that time out of the car which didnt' matter because he had the stock lid on it. you can run no filter on the car and it won't make anydifference in the air flow of the assy. I have seen this car take out many vettes that have had good drivers.

 

Exactly, look at the TTA rated at 250 HP was BS. If there was no Corvette then all Camaros' Firebirds' would be soooo much better.

 

First of all, i think you guys are all biased on your opinions because you like the f-body more then the vette. Even though the vette is faster, it has more horsepower, and runs the quarter quicker. How can you guys match up an SS which is the camaros top of the line car, w/ the base model corvette? Get the vette's top of the line, the Z06, i saw 3 at the track run consistent 12.3's. Lets see a stock SS do that? And about the GN, the buicks were converted into front wheel drive, not because GM was scared that it was quicker then the vette. Didn't we already argue about this before? And that the Callaway was faster then th GN. So look at any year f-body vs vette, and the vette will always come out on top as long as every detail ( condition, driver, etc. ) is the same. You can't talk sh*t on vettes jsut because they are faster then f-bodies, f-bodies are quick, but they still have not caught up to the corvette yet.

 

I'd be the last person to say that any fbody is better than a c5 vette. Its important for everyone to keep in mind that the corvette was ment to be a car that will perform well in a straight line, or a nice twisty road. The rear mounted trans, independent rear, and over better suspension setup will destroy a fbody on a road coarse. And given a choice between the two, I think everyone here would take the keys to the vette.

 

Tuned Port, I'm not hating on the Vette. Personally, you're right, I don't care for the Vette's ver much. I can't justify the price for the Vette when I could go get an SS w/ the same power for less, not to mention I like the looks of the SS better.

But we're not debating personal tastes here. I'm basing my statements on what I've personally witnessed. My friend Josh has a 2002 Vette and a 99 WS6, and my friend JT has the 2002 SS. Who wins whe it's the Vette vs. SS? The SS edges out. This is after a lid and cutout which I think ran him a total of $150 for both. They never ran stock. Josh's 99 WS6 however blows both of them away. It's a bolt on LS1 w a stall and LS6 cam. We're thinking it's in the 11's, but his 99 is another story. I think the major things the Vette has going for it is it's lightweight and more aerodynamic. Even the power numbers above for the Vette vs. TA (granted it's not a 2002 graph) should show you that there is VERY similar power numbers. If you're asking how I can match a Vette vs. SS, it's simple. Same engine, lower price on the SS, so I figure it a fair match. You can even take a Z28 if you want. The Z's aren't that much slower than the SS. Just different air intake/exhaust.

I'm not being biased here, I'm just looking at the facts.

 

im still not understanding the results on this one. first thing though, the engine in the corvette is the exact same one as the one in the fbodies. there is no "detuning" as chevrolet and pontiac claim to be. but however, there is a significant difference in weight between the vette and the fbody. also, the vette has a less restrictive intake and exhaust system than either fbody. now that ive mentioned those facts, how can you guys say that the fbody will still win in a drag race? put it this way: if you had 2 identically performing cars, but put a cold air package and cat back exhaust on one, as well as removed some weight, which one would win? Tuned Port is right, the GN was killed due to buick converting to front wheel drive the following year. plus i believe sales of the turbo six were less than anticipated, and just like the fbody, the plug was pulled due to lack of profit. the corvette is a platform to showcase GMs upcoming advancements in auto technology (active ride, traction control, wireless throttle, etc), not to be the fastest. if that were true, the GN and TTA would never have been allowed in the first place.

 

I still don't understand how you can compare a vette to an fbody, yeah for the money, an fbody is a lot more practical, but ever hear the saying " you get what you pay for." So if you pay more, you get more. I don't get how you could say an SS is quicker then a vette, just by one race. I think your friend in the 2002 vette sucks at racing. A driver makes a big difference. I saw a Viper GTS at the track run a 13.1, the guy was so pissed at how badhe sucked, he left! So the car isn't what really makes it faster then another, its the driver. Personally i like the LS-1-TA's and vettes better then the Z-28's. But we are not talking about personal tastes right? I just don't get how a vette that has more power, weighs less, is more aerodynamic, couldn't beat a SS. On paper it doesn't make sense, but if you put that test to the street, there are too many differences to consider. I bet if your firned w/ the SS raced the vette, that he could get a better time in that, then his SS. About the GN, and the TTA, those cars were some of the fastest in their day, but they weren't killed off because thy were faster then the vette, I have to agree w/ tpivette89, they were killed off due to lack of profits. And if gm didn't want something faster then the vette, why did they release them to the public in the first place, id say tpivette89 has a good point there.

 

Sorry abut that last post by Tpivett89, that really was me Tuned Port, we both sometimes use the same computer. But sorry to cause any confusion, I forgot to sign off his name, and onto mine,

 

Number 1. An SS does have a less restrictive exhaust from stock and a better intake than the Vette. That's part of the SS upgrade.

Number 2. The guy with the Vette isn't a crappy driver at all.

Number 3. The 12.8X the SS guy pulled down was his first time at the track EVER, and he had just stepped up from a Saturn to the SS, so he was still getting used to it.

Number 4. The ratings on the Vettes are higher, yes, but take and compare 2 on a dyno, and I guarantee you that they're both within 5 HP of each other.

Number 5. I don't know how in tune you are w/ the newer LS1's, but for some reason, they seem to be either quick or slow from the factory. They're not all the same.....

Number 6. I don't believe anyone ever said that GM won't allow a faster car to be produced. GM just won't RATE a car higher than the Vette. The TTA's were rated at 250, but if I'm not mistaken (someone please correct me) they were putting out aroung 295-300 RWHP stock.

Number 7. I'm not talking about one race and the same driver. I said that he hasn't lost to a Vette YET, except the 11 second ones we have rolling around here. He literally has had Vettes try him on the street and get taken, and pull him over to ask him what he's done, and he tells them nothing except Lid and Cutout.

I'm not one to be talking bull**** on boards. I hate people that post blatantly false information. There's no point. If it wasn't for the hassle of registering, i'd have 30 people over here in a heartbeat to back me up. BUT, if you don't believe me, feel free to stroll on over to www.etfa.net and go to our message boards. They'll back me up over there.

 

I'm not going to say what my car puts to the rear wheels or how much I spent to put that much down, but I want to say, that dyno graph makes me sick that those things put out that much power stock!

/me saves for booster seat to be able to see over the dash of the LS1

 

lol

crazy though how flat that torque curve is and how much power it puts down stock


I want one




now how did you manage that?

 

Gm did kill the GN b/c it was faster, though you'll have a tough time getting a GM official to admit it. You have to remember that in a company as big as GM, the right hand often has no clue what the left is doing, plus the Turbo v6 took a few years to beat the 'Vette. As far as the TTA goes, wasn't that a one year think anyway?

As an interesting side note, Pontiac was going to put the 3.8 (N/A) in the Fiero. However, since it tore the Vette a new one in EVERY performance catagory except top speed, the Corvette guys were able to keep it from escaping into the public.

 

a fiero with a n/a 3.8 beating a vette? huh? what were those engines rated back then, maybe 170hp? the 2.8L fieros went 16s or so in the quarter mile. so how in the hell can a single liter of displacement bump up the fieros quarer mile times by over 2 seconds? ovrclck350, how in the hell can your friend go from a saturn into an SS and clock a 12.8 on his first run? i think he should seriously challenge GMHTP staffer Evan Smith for his drag racing title, because that (12.8) was his best time in one of those cars. Evan, by the way, got a 12.6 in a 99 Vette (by the way, he did this without the advantage of a cutout filter lid), and could probably go faster in a 2002. thats what those guys your friend raced should be running (like ive said before, they must not be that good at driving their cars). like Tuned Port said, plug the same drivers into both cars, under the same conditions, and the vette will come out on top. they wouldnt charge an extra 10k for the vette over the SS for nothing. you guys are just vette haters, admit it. but i guess this is an fbody site and no amount of facts or arguing is going to sway the fbody voice. im wasting my time.

 

whoever said the LS1s in the vettes have a 4 bolt and the ones in the camaros have a 2 bolts must have let some of his brain leak out his ear - Theyre both 6 bolt mains....ok Im done

 

just because your friend in his Trans Am bet a vette, doesnt mean that all TA's are quicker then the vettes. That just shows that there had to be some factors in there that favored the f-body. Because no matter what the dyno graph says, or what G says, it only matters what you run. And if you get the same driver, conditions, and every other little detail to be fair, and race an fbody against a vettes times, the vette will win 9 outta 10 times. Its pointless to charge people more moeny for the same performance, so why even bring up that arguement? I don't think that it really matters if the f-body passes a stock vette in performance, because there still is the Z06. If the f-body passes that, its still ok because have you ever heard of the tiger shark vette that might come out? Correct me if im wrong, but its a 427 supercharged engine rght? That makes 742 HP? I wonder what that dyno chart looks like Ovrclck350? You guys are still saying that the GN and TTA was faster then th vette, it was but those are special models, they weren't made as long as the vette was, and if you want to get into hat catagory, have you already forgotten about the Callaway twin turbo Vette? I think that will smoke the competition.

 

You guys are not seeing my point. All you go by is numbers, and not actual real world performance. Like I said, feel free to go to www.etfa.net and click on the message boards, and there will be everyone on that site who has witnessed what I'm talking about. I never said that all TA's were faster than Vette's. I said that his 99 has had extensive mods and that it's another story. JT's SS however was STOCK. You guys are so hell-bent on the Vette that you're not opening your eyes. I'm a fan of both, granted I'd rather own an F-body, but I'm always a fan of fast cars. And why would you pay 11K more? The look is different and the Vette's power isn't as raw as the SS. Plus the Vette has IRS, which could be why it's slower. It could be more drivetrain loss w/ IRS.

 

OK I am not here to back one way or the other, but let's make some sense here guys. First of all, about the GN and TTA vs. the Corvette. Yes, the GN and TTA had more power than the Corvette. But GM did not rate it with more power because no car has EVER been rated with more power FROM THE FACTORY with more HP than the Corvette. Simple. The only example I can come close to thinking about is the 70 Chevelle with the LS6 that they "claimed" had 450hp...what was a 70 Vette pumping out then? I can't remember.

Next, about a new Vette and SS. Stock for Stock the new vette will be faster than a SS. Think about it...less weight vs. better aero = quicker times. However, you have to look at it like this. You can go buy a new SS Camaro for what $35,000 with dealer markup? And you can probably be at that same dealership and pick yourself up a brand new Vetter for around $52,000 again with the normal dealer markup. Now what happens if you take the $17,000 you saved from buying the same engine just different outside...and a few other things are different. BUT you put that $17,000 that you just saved from buying a SS and now you have a car that will EASILY beat a Vette. Don't get me wrong, I am not bashing a Vette or a Camaro. I own neither and would love to have EITHER. BUT FOR THE MONEY you get better performance with the Camaro. Sorry, it's true.

OK after saying all of that...congrats on the dyno of your LS1...it is very nice. OK guys, enough of all this Vette vs. Camaro stuff...the guy didn't ask about that...he was showing us what his LS1 did on the dyno...give him props and go about your business. And I am sure some or most of you will disagree with what I said...but hey...that's your choice. And to tell you the truth I probably won't check this for a few days so don't expect another reply real quick...anyways, that should be long enough

 

Tuned Port, ths guy just doesnt like corvettes. hell do anythng to beat one. its his goal. they find one fbody that eats a vette, and hoist it up on a golden pedestal. all hail the one SS that took a vette down. well congratultions. good job. but guess what? the fbody is dead. you can sing all you want about the 2002 SS and such, but the vette is still here, after almost 50 years (i guess that pretty much says which car is better). and its only going to get faster. but, who really cares at this point? this is just a useless arguement. the one thing i am absolutely tired of hearing is that the corvette killed off the GN. the corvette team was preparing to unveil the ZR1, they didnt give a rats *** about the GN. the ZR1 was the whole thinking point behind the C4 (ever wonder why the suspention and braking system on the early C4s were a little to overkill for the L98 engine? it was really for the upcoming King of the Hill), the base corvette was there so they could sell the car in some sort of volume in order to keep the real vette alive. the Grand National was pulled for a few reasons... #1: buick converted to front wheel drive in 88' (remember who mostly drives these cars, they have to cater to old people) #2 : sales of the turbo six were dismal, i heard somewhere that about 27k turbo sixes were produced in the 86, and 87 model years (that number maybe off). so who is the real killer of the GN? the buying public. if no one buys them, GM will axe it. take the entire oldsmobile division for example. also, did you guys know that the C5 almost never came to be? sales in the final years of the C4 were pretty low compared to previous years, and GM strongly considered pulling the plug. so much for the vettes high place at GM. bottom line is that if a car, any car, isnt making a profit, away it goes. you guys are really too much, next youll be saying the corvette killed the fbody too.

 

What do I have to gain by proving that the SS is faster? Nothing.

It's not my dyno graph, so I'm not trying to brag or anything, hell, I drive a V6.

I'm just trying to sit here and have an actual intelligent conversation, but some close-minded people in here don't seem to get that. They're so stuck on the Vette it wouldn't matter if the SS had 100 more HP, the Vette would still win. I'm through with this conversation. I don't honestly believe that you two guys are capable of opening your minds up enough to take in all the variables.

 

one more final thing to say on this topic. the TTA is rated at 250hp, correct? well, in 89' the corvette was maxed out at 245. so, the General HAS rated a car higher than the vette. Secondly, Ovrclck350, why is this not an intelligent conversation? i never insulted you or called you names or anything. i just dont agree that stock for stock a SS is going to beat a vette. true, it may and probably has happened. but most of the time a vette is going to win. i only responded to this post to defend americas sports car. someone earlier said "if there were no corvette, the fbody would be so much better". how someone can say this about a car thats been around for almost half a century (and that practically defined american performance), absolutely shocks me. now that the fbody is dead, and if there were no vette, GM would have no performance cars. we'd all be writing about how cool our 18 inch wheels look on our cavaliers instead of how fast our superrams make our T/As. please dont interpret my writings to wage some war against you people. its just the vette has taken alot of sh*t in its 50 years of production, and someone has to defend it. oh, and just one more thing and then ill shut up : Ericmac, your pricing for the C5 is a little off... 50k will get you a Z06, the base corvette is around 40k.

 

The LS-1 'Vette motor DOES make factionally more HP than the FBody. It's intake and exhaust are LESS restrictive than the FBody, not more.

So whay does it dyno about the same? Drivetrain friction. Lots more drivetrain parts to rotate, lots more u-joints to send the power through. In short, more firction. So you end up with about the same power actually making it to the wheels.

BUT...........Not every engine is the same off the factory. Some make more power, some make less. It's just how toleraces are. My 94 LT-1 Formula with single cat and "dryer hose and duct tape" type mods runs 13.5 @ 105. It's dead nuts stock. No gears, no exhaust (stock muffler, stock cat). Only a piece of dryer hose going from the MAF to the stock airbox with a stock filter in it. And that shouldn't be possible either, right? Yet many people have seen me run that number at the track. I have taken out every other stock or near stock LT-1 I have ever run. They're called factory freaks. The laws of production tolerances smile on some cars and frown on others. That's just how it is.

 

the vette's a better car, no one can even put up an argument that the fbod is even close. the engines are exactly the same and as perviously stated, the vette has less restrictive intake and exhaust. The fbod's whole rear half of the car has been around since 82, it is dated and sucks compared to the vette at anything but a drag race. vettes ride better, handle better, have stiffer chassis. I would still love to have either car, just stating the facts.

I think the gn was killed because gm stopped making g-body cars, they were busy making everything front drive for the 88 model year(lumina, grand prix, regal, cutlass supreme).

new Z28s have the LS6 intake?

 

tpivette89, have you actually ever gone to a dealership? I don't believe you have...I went to a High Volume dealership, and they had a Z06, which if you go to Cheverolet.com you will see should be a max of like $51,000. There price at the dealership was approx. $59,999. Hum...that seems like my estimate of $55,000 for a Corvette including TAX, TITLE, and LICENSE DAMN CLOSE. So thank you for caring to reply but if you can find a brand new Corvette for 40K let me know Let this die...give the guy props!

 

I thought I would bring back this thread and stir things up a little bit...download this video clip

It is actual video footage in 1987 of a completely stock twin turbo calloway corvette against a completely stock buick GNX (this was done by car and driver) you'd be surprised who wins

http://www.gnttype.org/media/gnxvette.MPG

right click on it and choose "save target as"

 

Dude, is it just me or is that Vette missing the signature Callaway Turbo ground effects?!

 

Would you like me to bring up the magazine photos and articles of this exact run? It's funny how nobody else knows about this:lala:

 

Yes I would cause I would love to read it. You can send it to me by email if you would like too:

thirdgenfbody@hotmail.com

Thanks

 

emails sent :lala:

 

Back to the original subject...


You're right, the LS1 is an amazing and underrated motor. I can't wait to dyno mine, I expect (well, HOPE) to see 300+ to the wheels.