I had my starter changed today. The old one was done. As well the distributor cap and a module.

Up until the starter died, the car ran like a champion. Not a single complaint.

I pick up the car and it doesn't start. It goes 'click'. I try another 10 or so times and it finally cranks and starts. Idles like crap, up and down...
Hit the road and the thing is bogging down like you wouldn't believe. Go around the block a couple of times hoping it will correct itself. It does, but not by a lot. That is probably not a good explanation, so I'll give some other descriptions. I can get on the throttle, watch the RPM's climb, I can hear the exhaust getting louder and meaner, but there is no pick up to go with it.
Up until the starter died, I was running with Vettes and putting down Beamers and most everything else. Right now, my 99 Corolla is faster...
So, back to the mechanic...I explain it to him. I also ask about the non-start problem. His expanation to me is that it is VATS related. Something about the chip in my key not making good contact in the ignition cylinder. I disagree as this issue never occurred previously. He swears that this is what it is. Then he goes on to say the key is causing the car to drive like garbage. However, he says it drove fine for him. I say fine, lets go for a drive. The car acts up and he explains to me that it is the key causing these new problems. Is he full of BS? Does the VATS not function as a simple switch? I mean, doesn't it tell the car to start or not start? What does it have to do with performance?
After I got back to work I called to say that we had to do more work, he stated that it could be my EGR as it is not hooked up.
Maybe I'm a complet idiot, but I thought I was told/heard somewhere that the Corvette engine has 'EGR Delete'? I'm probably so wrong, but I'm asking you guys because someone here will know.
After this long story, I'm just looking for a starting point to diagnose the issue so any input would be great. I'm posting this in the 'General Engine or TPI' board as well. Yes, I have been doing searches. Yes I have been getting some answers, but they aren't my questions and my exact issues.

Also, the tow company - Gloucester Towing - made a boo-boo while loading it on the flat bed. Because it is so low, it needs to go up in 'steps'. Pieces of wood to reduce the angle...anyway, one of the pieces of wood, as the car shifted weight, still lodged under the tire, but enough sticking out that it pushed up into my ground effect, cracking it, and pushing out the nose and creating a bend on the passenger side right where the seam is (the seam is about an inch apart now in the middle, but tight at the top and bottom. You guys know the seam, right in front of the front side signal light.
The owner tried to tell me there was not enough damage to warrant a repair...boy did we disagree there. Anyway, after some discussion, Gloucester Towing agreed to have their body shop guy - Lauries on Bronson - have a look. His quote was $700. I guess there was enough damage after all. They are paying for the repair. The tow was free as well.

Sorry for the long post. Any thoughts on the start issue and the running like garbage would be absolutely great.

Thanks,

Chris

 

I will have to say if the starting problem could be the VATS possibly yes, but it would not cause it to run as your describing. Now I am not sure where your going with the statement of the EGR delete on the Vette?? You car is not a Vette, and the ECM does need the EGR signal. The EGR could definately cause these runnablity issue, and will cause it to run very rough, and even stall alot at idle. Now you may also need to reset the TPS and IAC being that the Battery may have been disconnected for a long period of time, you can find the process for resetting the TPS and IAC in the TECH section on the main page here. Hopefully this can get you started off in the right direction???

Edit...
I did not notice your sig. describing the Vette Engine.. Sorry.. So the ECM is in fact a Vette tuned system then?? If so this leads me to beleive a TPS or IAC problem may be the cause.

 

That helps a lot.
I will look into the resets of the TPS and IAC. I will post with updates, because I really hate reading someones problem, but then never finding out what it really was and what/how the fix was done.
And yes, it is the Vette ecm.

Thanks again.

Chris

 

Glad to help Chris, sure keep me posted on how you make out...

 

If your turn the key and you hear the solenoid "click" then it has nothing to do with VATS. He may have a bad connection at the starter.

 

Not sure about the bad starter bit possibly a new bad starter bad connection or something could also be the ignition switch in the column.

As for running rough right after a trip on the wrecker and a trip to the garage who had it up on the hoist. The same thing happened to me when I had a front end aligment done. The car ran like garbage after I picked it up. The steering was a hole lot better but it ran terrible.

When they put it up on the hoist they broke off the oxygen sensor. Could be your tow truck ride or the mechanic when he put your car on the hoist broke or damaged the oxygen sensor just like mine. Car ran perfect again as soon as I replaced it.

 

Hey man, I have an OTC scanner (have to double check and see if it will work on a 91) and live in Ottawa if you're still stumped after giving the car a good once over.

Did you check and see if your exhaust got crushed or something so obvious you didn't look for it? If it is sensor related your check engine light should at least have come on and off again....??

What year is your ECM?

 

The click would certainly be the selonoid on the starter which would mean VATS has nothing to do with it. New starter/selonoid is bad or has a bad connection. VATS has nothing to do with how the engine runs once it's started. I'd tell him you are willing to pay for the vats work if it cures the proplem. If it doesn't then he pays after he installs a new starter. I would just bypass it if it was VATS but I really don't think it is.


He may have bumped a electrical connection lose or a vac line while working on your car. May be why it's running bad.

 

Dude your getting bent over and not even getting a reach around. How can ANY reasonably intelligent tech know the VATS is suddenly a mystery problem just after working on the ignition system??? Cant be that surely after all everything was fine until he messed with the ignition now it runs like crap so of course it must be the VATS....



If you want my advice dont EVER take your car back there. For the cost of the repair bite the bullet and take it somewhere reputable and get it fixed properly. This guy is deliberately ripping you off or far too stupid to ever leave his home alone. I wonder if he even changed the starter or just smacked it with a hammer to get you going and left it. Some cheap "white box" starters do that right from new. Your better off taking in your OEM one for a rebuild than running a crappy tire cheapo. They are "seller specials" not driver users.

As for the ignition... You dont change modules unless they stop working so you got burnt there. Show me one reputable source that can claim power increase from a module... Wont find one cause it doesn't happen. They either work or dont.

As far as specualtiing your problem? Dude its your ignition. It was fine before he messed with it so thats your problem. Check the timing and the plug wire firing order and for vacuum hoses off and those simple things. Thats where your problem is not the damn VATS. Man does crap like this ever plss me off. Jerk off mechanic should have his bell rung.

DONT GO BACK all you will get is more BS and headaches. Better off to call it a bad day and go somewhere else and bad mouth that **** to everyone you know and hope he goes out of business to never return. Good luck.

 

I agree, check the firing order. I have a light as well to check it for you.
Any chance the retard mechanic still has your old module to put back in? Don't those either work or not?

What are they like $50 for a Delco?
$100 says there is no silicon paste under it.

 

As soon as I read the guy changed the module I started getting pissed. What a jackass just gouging ya for dough. He may have installed the wrong type as they are different with regards to wiring. Some are only identifiable by the color of the wires so you should either get your stocker back or get a new one from the dealer. Fifty bucks or so is what they cost. First check for simple stuff like sugested above.

No power but running sounds like timing or vacuum related issue. Check you vacuum lines especially at the MAP sensor and that they are all hooked up and not leaking. Sometimes just messing around near those hoses cracks them so get a can of quick start and with the engine running and breather installed spray around all the vacuum hoses and base of intake . If the idle changes you have a leak where you spray. Works good and easy to do yourself.

Its possible that by working on the ignition one or more of these was cracked and is leaking but it still doesn't let the mech off the hook IMO cause hes calling VATS which is absurd. If its the vats your keys are usually worn out and the cylinder is 'jiggy' not so much a constant problem as you describe with no power. If its VATS usually it dont start at all.

He screwed up and is treating you like a chump. Dont ever go back.

 

So I'll tell you guys the dumb-*** story...

This was really strange to me, but seems to have been the problem. The major problem anyway...

It was the battery. I decided to park the car Thursday night, and went back to the Toyota until I could get the Z going proper.
So I get home Friday after work and decide I'm going to start my investigation. Go to start the car and the 'click' is back...but the issue is a dead battery? Strange...
So I boost it and it fires right up. Throwing codes galore. Let it run for a while to charge, shut her down. Restart to make sure its good. It does. Go about my business checking lines, plugs, firing order etc...
Everything looks good, correct. Go to start the car, battery is dead again. Don't even bother charging it this time...take it to Crappy Tire and have it tested. I tell them its not holding the charge. Battery tests 'good'. They tell me it must be something in the car draining it. Doesn't make sense to me...Take it home and put it on the 'trickle charger'. Charges fine. Put it in the car and it fires up good. Still running rough, throws codes again. I take it for a drive and to put some gas in (hi-test @ 91.1) because thats pretty cheap as of late...Go to start it up, the thing is dead again...I'm pretty angry at this point. Take a boost and get the car home. I'm positive I have a bad battery at this point.
Pull the battery from the Cadi, put it in the Maro and...
Fires right up, idles rough while the computer is searching and setting (I'm guessing that was what it was doing). Let it run for 5 minutes and it cleaned itself up. Perfect idle. No codes. Take it for a drive, all *****. Everything is basically back to normal. I'm pretty sure my timing is off a degree or two at this point, but thats an easy fix.
Take the crappy battery back to Crappy Tire and it tests bad. Not sure why it tested good the first time? Replaced under warranty. Get the new battery home and swap out the Cadi battery. Go to start - 'click'. Damn, they gave me a dead battery...boost it, let it run for about half an hour...running great. Shut her down. Next day go to start it again, dead f'ng battery. Call Crappy to enquire about the battery. It was 4:30 and they close at 5 on Sundays. I ask if I can get there by 4:45 if we can test and replace. They tell me no. I ask if I'm in the store, you are just going to turn me away? He stated yes, it takes too long to do the paperwork. I hang up. I'm pissed because I had to wait for an hour to replace the original bad battery only to get a replacement bad battery and now they tell me they won't service me. I'm going back today, and yes I will have a bit of an attitude.

Thats the story. Call me an idiot if you like, but I have never experienced the car symptoms that I had as a result of the battery. It was strange.

Thought you guys might like to know...
Thanks to 6speedIROC, who offered to come to my house and help me out with the trouble-shooting, even though we had never spoken or met previous to this thread. I love car people.

Good Cruisin...

 

Haha always the little things overlooked isn't it? Boy that mechanic was a genius eh? Car wont start with new starter and he never checked the battery but through his "car clarivoyance" (sp?) he knew it was the VATS eh? Too much. Glad to hear you got it figured somewhat. lets hope the battery is the only problem.

 

sorry to hear you had a bad experience with canadian tire, it seems like most of the Canadian tire stores no longer believe in customer service.

 

#1) The shop where you took your car is obviously incompetent (or at least the person you spoke with is).

#2) Don't use Crappy Tire batteries- they're almost all pieces of crap. From my experience with them on battery issues- their corporate philosophy is that a battery should last about 3 years (no matter what the actual warranty period is)- many people have long gotten rid of a car that is at least 2-3 years old when it needed a battery and then will be 5-6 years old when their unit fails. If you still have this vehicle at the 5-6 year point, you'll have to pay a pro-rating on the battery after the first (year?) I think- so they're not losing anything but minimum wage labour on the unit (i.e. the poor guy standing behind the counter). Use AC Delco, Interstate, or Optima batteries- anything else is basically going to be a cvrap-shoot.

#3) Are you sure your new battery issue is a battery problem and not a short in your electronics somewhere? Based on your mechanic's apparent lack-of-thought in general, and the fact your starter was just replaced- it might be wise to get under the car and verify the wiring to/from battery and alternator.

 

Yeah, so I guess I was too quick to pronounce the car back from the dead...
However, it is not quite as bad as before. It will act up for a few minutes at a time, but then smooth itself out and drive like its supposed to.

I am starting to get really fed up. Obviously I don't know enough about these cars or cars in general.

I have a new issue as well. The battery thing. I took back the replaced battery to Crappy and got another replacement. This one acted the same - Not enough power to start the car. All the accessories work fine, but I just get the click. Had to boost it. Went back to Crappy with the battery in the car, and they told me there is no possibility that I could get two batteries in a row off the shelf that were bad. So I went home. Back out a little later to the bank - come out of the bank and have to get a boost. Get the car home again. Let it sit for about five hours - try to start it and I get the click. Boost it, put it in the driveway as I am not intending to drive it again. This morning before work, I attempt at starting it. Click. Click again. Click again. I can see the power from the battery going lower and lower...try one more time and it fires up. The weirdest damn thing. Even weirder is that I had been driving around for a few days on a spare battery that I had, and it never required a boost at all. So how the hell is my car killing all of these new batteries, but not this spare?
Another weird thing going on...sometimes my lights are 'always on'. Sometimes they are not. Like as soon as I start the car, my lights come on wether I have pulled them on or not. Other times they stay dead until I pull them on. That has to be an electrical short right? And somehow that must be pulling power from the battery? I'm at a loss.
As well, it seems my manifold has come loose on the drivers side - I'm getting the tick tick tick...which could be part to blame for my intermittent performance loss. As well as the timing issue.
I'm going to try and take Thursday and Friday off so I have a chance to go at this myself. Hoping that I can get a couple of friends, with extensive knowledge, to come over and help. I'm terrified that I'm just making things worse by doing various things on my own. I currently have no confidence in my abilities as I am back at the start. Is it not weird that the car was good for two days? Then I replace the good spare battery with a crappy Crappy Tire battery and everything reverts back to garbage?
I might have to bite the bullet and take it to a Myers or some other Chevy specialist. Big bucks, but what else am I left with? Do I slit my wrists and call it a day? Some of my dads friends have been telling me to go see this guy - Larry Ingram, or something like that - I'm sure somebody in the Ottawa area on here knows him, any idea if he is any good? Trustworthy?
I'm not going to bug you guys over and over again. Just wanted to let you know I'm dead in the water again...

 

No problem I know what it is. Its the VATS

Sorry dude couldn't resist You got an electrical gremlin by the sounds of it and there is nothing I can offer over the net that will help. You need someone to check that thing over but I would start at the starter and make sure no wires are dangling or touching one another. Sadly these types of problems are typically the most frustrating and tme consuming of any you ever find on a car because of the floating ground autos use it can get hard to pinpoint the short with meters and whatnot ESPECIALLY if your not blowing fuses. Good luck man. Friends with knowledge in this area are highly recomended.

 

Ouch...I'm going to venture it is a bad ground. I had a single wire off my headlight circuit after the engine swap to the rad support and it messed all sorts of things up. Waaay more than you would think. Similar to what you describe with the headlights.

Start with the grounds..does your engine have more than 1 ground strap to the chassis? It should. These like to break.

Did you get a new starter or a reman? Next time go to the dealer/parts strore and get a new AC Delco!

If somehow your solenoid is making a bad connection inside it would not crank all the time...had that exact problem on a Nissan Stanza..aka the 'STANZAROC' the solenoid internal contacts were worn out..would work fine for a long time, then just crap out. Would usually go if you keep cycling the key..like 10 or 20 times.

 

Do you have a voltmeter / ammeter?
Put the ammeter in line with the battery +ve or -ve and see if it is pulling current with the key off if you think there is something draining the battery. Make sure the doors are closed and the underhood light are out so as not to mess you up.

 

Yeah, I have a couple of grounds that I can see, but I'd just be guessing if I said those were the only ones. I'll start checking every wire I can find and trace it from start to finish.
I'll update whenever I can. I'll try not to post though, until I have a solution.
I'm sure you guys are getting frustrated just listening to my story...

On another thought, anyone know a good place where I could take the car and ask them to go through it front to back, up and down, testing everything electrical, pulling all engine internals and tranny and verifying good or bad?
I know that is way costly, but it might save me a mental breakdown...I'm used to spending every cent I have on my car, so its not really a big issue going broke trying to get this fixed properly.

Late.

Chris

 

It certainly sounds like you have a draw/short even if it seems intermittent, or simply a poor connection that isn't allowing a good enough current to the starter for start up (it could be the new starter itself!). Definitely check your connections at the starter and make sure it's not something simple like a melted cable and bare or exposed wire or poor contact.

Most important, I would strongly recommend you do not patronize Larry Ingram, I don't want to open a can of worms here but Buddy is still chasing the gremlins (and spending a pile of cash) from his experience with the "Vette Man" from like six years ago. I don't partake in slander but it has taken a lot of my time as well as that of a good friend (gm tech/electronics guy) just to make his car driveable.
He is the self proclaimed master...of his own little world!

...It took me so long to hen peck my little note I missed the boat. It sounds like Neil is getting you on the right track now... good luck.

 

6SpeedIROC is right about the grounds. 99% of the time its a ground problem when dealing with auto electrical problems. Its finding it thats a biatch.

 

Don't freak out yet, it's barely even summer yet..still time!

Start with the major circuits..everything from the battery and the starter as that's where your problems are. DOn't start de-looming the harness quite yet. After that, follow the largest wires, check the C100? connector at the firewall beside your brake booster..is it loose? There is a bolt that holds it together.

 

Parasitic draws are a mechanics worst nightmare. I deal with them on an almost daily basis. They can be very hard to track at times, and the sometimes it is found in seconds. One question... this was a common problem for GM radios in this era. Does the radio clock stay lit up with the ingnition off??? If yes, the radio would be your cause. If not we have other problems. Something simple to start with. But like already mentioned, start with the wiring at the ingnition system, grounds are 1st thing and move on from there. Also and this is a primative way to test this. You will need a test light for this. Remove the ground cable from the battery, connect the test light to the ground cable and the test end of the light to a ground, does it light up??? If yes, you for sure have a Parasitic draw somewhere. Also if yes you can start by removing one fuse at a time and recheck the test light to groun for each fuse till your test light does not light up. Once it doesn't light up you have found the curcit causing the problem. I hope I haven't confused you to much???? If so, just ask about where I have stumped you.

 

I have voiced my opinions on here before about LARRY INGRAM.
I must first ask you, DO YOU WANT TO DRIVE YOUR CAR, or do you wish to keep the miles off and keep it as a show piece? If you don't care whether or not your car runs properly, by all means, take it to Larry. Your current problems won't be a problem any more, that's for sure. Does that mean it will be fixed? Of coarse not, but it will run SOOO bad, that you will forget all about your current problem. I gave larry ALOT of $$$$ a couple years ago, and was given a car you couldn't drive. He had my car more than I did for this time (summer) I speak of. After he couldn't fix it, he basically told me at the end of summer "I don't know what to do. You take it, I have no ideas, and don't know who you should talk to, bye". WELL IT FUC*'IN RAN FINE WHEN I BROUGHT IT TO YOU AT THE FIRST OF SUMMER!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Years of hating my car because it ran so bad, I let Rick Leary look at it. He was amazed at how out of whack everything was. The timing was WAY WAY OFF, the idle screw was so far out, it was ABOUT TO FALL OUT. The NEW EGR Larry had me to buy, because my old one was ceased, causing the problem (1 of many times it was at his house) WASN"T EVEN HOOKED UP. Rick got the car running as good as it could get, this was confirmed a week later, by chance, by a GM big-wig trouble-shooter from Oshawa. (I was working at a GM dealership at the time, cornered this guy who was brought in by GM for the day) That summer my father saw Larry, told him about how F'ED up the car had been when HE gave it back to me years earlier, how it was FINE now. He just shrugged, said "yeah, I goota get a scanner and some of that type of equipment" THE GUY WAS WORKING ON MY CAR LIKE IT WAS CARB'ED. He KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT FUEL INJECTED CARS compared to so many others out there. It's not just me, (and that wasn't the only WRONG thing he did to my car either) go talk to some of the Corvette guys in Ottawa - SOME OF THE MORE PROMINENT ONES. They scoff at the name LARRY INGRAM. I should have listened to some of these guys (they do have more expensive cars than mine, won't let just anyone to touch them) years ago, and saved alot of headaches and $$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
We all learn a little as we go, I learned a good lesson. I like to think I can help others out from learning mine if they don't have to.
LARRY INGRAM MAKE YOUR INJECTED CAR RUN GOOD.......

 

i had a similar problem on a cavalier once, i replaced the battery cables and never had a problem with it after.(the negative cable was full of corrosion)

 

check your altenater i had the same problem ,put a new battery in n it was dead after a couple of hours, its the altenator get it tested

 

Alternator was brand new in August. Parked the car in November. So its really only got about 4 months of use. Its a heavy duty one as well, I think 160 amp...
I'm quite sure it is not the alt. At least not mechanically anyway, could be wiring somewhere. There is something else going on that I don't have an answer for yet. This weekend is the beginning of my search.

 

Kaz's test light trick is a great way to start.

 

the wire that goes from the battery to the altenater its not cracked or melted in spots