but when GM argues with most of you guys, well, i just have to. first of all, before i start, let me say that none of you guys need to butcher me, im going to a 383 so i dont need any of the 305 bashing sent my way-ive been convinced. but someone needs to stand up for the "little guy" sometimes, right? well, i was lookin through my original 1991 Pontiac full line brochure and i found something that was straight-up surprising. GM DISAGREES WITH MOST OF THE CLAIMS ON THIS MESSAGE BOARD!!! almost
everyone says that the 305 TPI will get stomped by the 350 TPI EVERY SINGLE TIME HANDS DOWN. well im about to pee-pee in yo wheaties. and before im cut down and told to "check my facts"-i already have, many times over actually, ive read this WHOLE brochure many many times. the ONLY person you can argue with here is GENERAL MOTORS, they printed this, NOT ME.

 

Well with a stout tail wind.... and sea level conditions, I'd say that the lil' 305 may have a chance

 

YOUR A LOONEY!!!! Ive seen 350 TPI bone stock run low 14's all the way to low 15's.... ive seen stock 305 tpi 5 speeds run mid 14's all the mid to high 15's..... Always look to me like the were about a 1/4 of a second behind or so.....
'

 

Brand new, well tuned, I could see the 305 doing it with a 5 speed. the 350 never came with one, so the 305 had an advantage rite there. maybe that made up for 45ci

 

...and we all know that GM brochures are the best place to get accurate technical and performance information.

That comment in the brochure is so open-ended and non-specific that you really can't get anything out of it. It's just more advertising propaganda. I'll agree that the 5 speed cars were very close in performance to the L98 in many cases, but that ad really does nothing to offer proof.

What "raw performance numbers"? It didn't say "acceleration" it said performance. Skidpad numbers are performance stats, so are slalom, braking distance, etc. Due to the T5's lighter weight, it's definately possible that the braking and skidpad numbers are better. The specific gearing may help with slalom numbers. My point is, the quote doesn't say "faster accelerating than the L98" and leaves it open for interpretation.

"Nothing in this book"... what's that mean? Is the L98 even listed there or is it full of Grand Ams and Transports?

 

umm, no, it has all the "luxury" models too, ya know, the GTA and the T/A. i like the 350, i just think that it is so dumb that we as 3rd gen enthusiasts can't admit that the "wee lil 305" stole the 350's thunder in a lot of aspects. it wasn't right, it shouldn't have happened, and im not crazy. for all the 350's that you've seen that "stomped a mudhole" in the **** of a 305, im sure you've also seen vise versa, you just won't admit it for some reason. it dosen't matter, these are both excellent motors, and there all excellent cars. and, import, there is no need for that looney crap. personal cut-downs are not necessary. i didn't say anything about you and talk about an engine (of all things!) shouldn't cause that kind of badmouthing and i would appreciate it if it NEVER HAPPENED AGAIN unless you are given a reason.

 

I've always thought the L98 was a pig, to be honest. The 5-spd car should be quicker, especially around town. If you dyno'd both cars i'd imagine the torque/hp to the wheels would be about equal, and the ability to shift at will will make the stick car quicker.

The 700R4 eats up hp, and its heavy..

besides most of the GTA's/Z28s I've see at the track were pulling low 15's, not low 14's. And we're racing 90ft above sea level, so no corrections.

-- Joe

 

A factory 305 with a 5 speed. I can see it beating a factory 350 with a 700r4 maybe... But once you start modifying the 350 and the 305 with equivalent mods the 350 is going to win.

 

The T5 generally makes the big difference in his initial point,
besides obvious gearing differences of the T5 vs 700R4.
(3.45's in T5's, 3.27s or worse in the 700R4s).

But the "with equivalent mods the 350 is going to win"
statement is not true at all. It can go both ways.

My _EXACT SETUP_ on a 305, same C/R, and so on, just the 3.735
bore would make about 20hp more than the 4.030 bore I'm running now, but looses about 75lbs of torque.

But taking just the Supercharger out, and the 350 is on top again by about 27hp.

Part of the reason is the smaller bore allows more timing in a supercharged or nitrous application, less heat, and less chance of detonation.

 

Cube's win the battle... My new 5.7 goes in place of my old 5.0 with a few mods. However, I bought brand new,a 1990 Formula 5.0 - 5 Speed - WS6, ect.. .. A good friend bought a new 1990 GTA 5.7 available only with an automatic. I never ran him in an actual quarter mile but in a stop light to stop light.. Around town driving I'd blow him off so quickly and so badly that he would just would shut it down. It made him so mad he went and bought a paxton for it when it was brand new.. Later I found that the 5.7 and the 5.0 used the same cam. I hear the PCM is the same. It was the first year of MAP on these and I am very intrested in knowing what all they did share. I ran up against many 3rd generation firebirds and Camaro's and in the first few years I owned it and I never lost to any of them. Everyone always wanted to know what I had under the hood. It was a bone stock 5.0 liter.. I wonder if these 90 -91 5.0's actually shared more with the 5.7's ? (Injecter size being one ) Or.. did I get one of those freak cars that runs better than it should ?

 

a correction if i may.

you are about 1/2 right. the standard TPI 5.0 with automatic used what everyone refers to as the infamous "peanut" cam. the part you are right on is the 5.0 H.O. with the 5-speed only uses the better L98 cam.

also, i don't know about any other stuff, but i DO know that injector size was different on the 305 and the 350. its like 19 for the 305 and 21 (?) for the 350.

 

Yes I did mean the 5.0 with the vin code F

 

That doesn't really clarify anything. The automatic and manual-equipped TPI 305s both had the Vin code F, but the motors had different cams. Like mentioned above, only the 5-speed TPI cars got the L98 cam.

BTW, the L98s used 22lb/hr injectors.

 

oh i knew it was in that area. thanks for the correction, Jim!

 

Remember, they were interested in selling cars, not the truth.

 

May I offer a little bit of the knowledge I've accumulatd off of this site for the past many years....

Fact: I am aware of the many "freak" L98's of the SD era running in the 13's...bone stock

Fact: No 305 of the SD era has ever made that claim...either 5spd or 700r4.

Another item to note, without taking a scientific poll, I'm willing to say that 90% of stock SD L98's run low 14's to mid 14's, altitude corrected. I've never seen a sig line or timeslip from a stock 305 better than a high 14..and even if there are some in the mid 14's..they are still slower than 90% of the L98's of the same era.

But the real arguement/question/thought-to-ponder, is this...

Since all of these cars are at least 10 years old and are nearing time to rebuild engine, etc...the question now would be, which engine has better performance potential for the intended application? The question of how they compared 10+ years ago is a moot point, regardless of what the brochure said.

 

I am glad someone else noticed this. I rememember when 4 wheel disc brakes were the hot item on the Regals when they first came out....yeah....mine get changed once a year (if I'm lucky...usually more). GM's claims carry no weight in my opinion. I only consider what I see firshand when it comes to their products.

 

i have a LIL 305 of my own that sits in my 89 trans am
i have a time slip of 14.86 but that is with a lot of tire spine and feathering the gass because my posi is shot and my car was running like crap that day
and all i know is i have beaten my fair shair of TPI 350s and LT1 350s
dont ask me why i beat lt1 camaros and firebirds because i cant believe it sometimes myself
i have raced 3 lt1 camaros on the street and all of them had some exhaust work that i can see i dont know about intake wise but i took them all off the line and from a roll
they are very imbarassed afterwareds because i tell them all i have a 305 before i race them and then they wont talk to me
like i said dont ask me