HI, just bought the Scroggin-Dickey vortec head and tpi manifold combo, to throw on my otherwise stock '87 350 iroc.

I need help choosing the right cam to best compliment this setup, and would like your input. Car is mostly stock, with TES headers, 3" flowmaster catback, and air foil. Chip soon to come (need input here also)

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks

 

Some Idea's that come to mind would be The ZZ4 cam ( mild )

Or the LPE 211/219* Cam (less mild)

Altho word on the street is the Stock L98 Cam is the best one out there for Vortech Heads ( LMGDAO )

 

ummm ok. thats the word on the street even though a dyno has proven the LT4 hotcam makes more power than a stock motor

 

Bort even on this post you manage to show how ignorant you are....

Bort is taking a discussion from another post and attempting to be sarcastic....what he doesn't realize is that he's an idiot....but I can help with that.

The LT4 cam makes 4-5 hp more according to desktop dyno vs. the stock 88-89 L98 cam with 1.6 rockers.

Now what he is taking out of context and applying to this post is that my opinion is that the stock L98 cam is actually a very good cam for the Vortec heads coupled with the 1.6 rockers and retarding it by 2 degrees. I by no means said it is the only choice, but for me with the car I am building it is the choice I have made for my combo. The vortec heads are a high velocity low lift head design so it would stand to reason that a high velocity low lift cam is a good match.

Here are some desktop dyno charts to demonstrate this....

 

that was stock L98

here is L98 with 2 degrees retard

 

and now the ever popular LT4 cam....wow

 

Wow, great! Thanks for the info Poncho!!!

Not that big a difference between the two cams huh?

Can you give me the correct gmpp part number for the L-98 cam?

Also, I purchased the upgraded vortec heads, that have been machined to handle up to .550 lift, did I waste my money here, cant the stock L-98 cam be used with a regular set of vortecs that are stock right out of the box, not machined? I think a set of unmachined vortec heads are good to .450 lift.

Thanks again

 

Oh My *** you have got to be F*cking Kidding me...

Desktop Dyno - Hell why even bother to build cars, Its so much easier to just put them in the computer. I think we just figured out why Poncho Thinks he knows everything.

Lokast - Poncho is WAY out of touch with reality. If you listen to him I promise you will end up with a 14 second Vortech Headed TPI.

 

I think Poncho is too into his video games. Bench racing is fun and all, but when it comes down to it real world experience is where it's at. Stock cams suck, plain and simple. It's been proven time and time again. Listen to Bort, he knows what he's talking about.

 

He Mr. Bort aren't you also Mr. Theory....what is wrong with Desktop dyno? Engines are all physics right? So it would stand to reason that an engine simulation software can compare to variables no? While I am not saying Desktop dyno is real world accurate in it's calculations,actually I have tested it and it's pretty accurate if you know how to use it, it is however a great tool for comparing cams.

Lokast as for the upgraded heads....that's one of the reasons I am using the L98 cam, I bought a set of used heads and aside from degreasing and shimming the springs to increase/balance seat pressure I will not be upgrading to HD springs for the increased lift cams. Since you already have the upgraded heads you are better off looking at different cams to see if you can find something better than an L98 or LT4 cam.

 

Desktop Dyno is a joke. Do me a favor and call all of the professional engine builders out there (Lingenfelter, Nu-tek Motorsports, etc). Ask them if they use Desktop Dyno for prototyping of their engines. Be sure to give them plenty of time to stop laughing.

Please, DO NOT waste your time with a stock L98 cam. The factory designs camshafts with emissions and fuel economy in mind first, warranty concerns second, and power concerns dead last.

 

I would call comp cams and feed them the info on your new combination and let them chose a cam for you.

Its going to cost a little bit but in the end you have spent a good bit on heads, and intake so far, why skimp on camshaft?

Good luck!

 

MY real world experience has taught me that some stock cams can produce good power....but you have to be able to see this. It's this quick to dismiss things and jump on the aftermarket band wagon when everyone around you is doint that isn't it? But if stop and think for yourself you'd be suprised what conclusions you can come to on your own.

I am by far not a bench racer, with over 10 years of actual bracket racing experience, and happen to have a circle of friends and family that combined have hundres of years of racing experience. I have been around performace and racing enthusiasts most of my life and have seen friends build record holding cars. I have access to an engine dyno, flow bench and the experitise of an experienced and proven engine builder were I have been witness to some amazing engines built over the years.

I have won most street races I've ever been involved in and have done quite well bracket racing.

The only bench racer here seems to be Bort.

 

While they might not use Desktop Dyno I guarantee they use some sort of software and/or calculations to help them build engines, and unless you are saying that the physics of engine building are dependant on the software you use then Desktop Dyno is a fine enough tool for comparisons. While Desktop Dyno's assumptions for intake and exhaust system might not be the most accurate that has little impact when doing side by side comparisons of cams, compression ratios, heads and the likes.

In the end Desktop Dyno is one tool that can and in my opinion should be used to help build a complete car. When you call a cam manufacturer I am sure they just don't rattle off a cam choice from the top of their head, but instead use developed formulas to determine the best cam for your combination. All Desktop Dyno does is assemble all the different formulas and along with some assumptions produce a graph of what this engine combination should make. He!! for $30.00 I'd say that's pretty good!

 

Thats Me, Ive Managed to bench Race Myself A Half second faster than you

I think the proof is int he pudding here -

Poncho's fastest car to date 12.7 out of a 455" Pontiac - With aftermarket Cam none the less.

Or

Bill's 10 Second GN

Brad's 500 + Hp 396

Guido's 10 Second ( at 5 psi of boost ) Iroc


Who's experiance are you going to take ? lol.

The Point is, THe L98 Cam is pretty anemic - and there are Lots of better Choices out there for even a otherwise Stock Motor.

Weather you want to belive Desktop Dyno, Or The real Dragstrip, Is up to you.

 

Yes, there are stock cams that make good power: Stock Turbo Regal Cam, Stock LT4 cam...these are good cams for their application. Stock L98 cam is NOT a good cam for his combo and what he is trying to achieve.

 

There you again using other peoples accomplishement as your own.

I happen to know people with 9, 10, 11 and 12 second cars, should I drop names to make my point? So what that my fastest has been 12.7, it's still faster than your 14 second car! What's your point? The original question was for a cam choice on a basically stock engine with Vortec heads....you made a statement and I disagreed with, the LT4 cam isn't significantly better than the L98, that's all...but you insist on challenging me at every corner.

 

You Rule Poncho !

I give up....

 

91 corvette L98 245 HP. 345 TQ
ZZ4 crate engine 355hp, 405 TQ

Differences: cam, intake, headers
Same: 350, heads, 9.75:1 vs 10:1 (close enough)

Now, who thinks 110hp and 60lb-ft of torque were gained mostly through the exhaust and intake?

The stock L98 cam is not a magic low lift high velocity cam. It's a low lift, low output cam with lazy ramp rates. The ZZ4, or any modern performance grind will offer more lift at all points in the curve for a given amount of duration. And more lift with the same duration means more flow AND velocity.

 

BTW. Kevin91Z makes 320hp and 410 TQ AT THE WHEELs with an LTR setup and vette AL heads using an LT4 hot cam. So desktop dyno is underestimating the potential of that setup by a lot considering that vortec heads outflow AL vette heads out of the box.

 

You guys are all haters. Long live the stock TPI cam! Check my sig for details!

 

Wow!!

 

While I don't doubt the power Kevin91z is making with the HotCam the original discussion was between the LT4 cam and the L98 not the LT4 HotCam.

And once again I never said the stock L98 cam is the best, all I said is it isn't as bad as people make it out to be. Can you make more power with another cam? Yeah I am sure....but a stock L98 cam will have a smooth idle and pass emissions much easier than a wilder cam and if I am not mistaken the original poster of this question happens to live in California, so this should be a consideration no?

Listen Ed, obviously you and Bort are stuck on bashing stock setups, fine....It simply ins't true that you can't make power with stock equipement though, otherwise why would NHRA have a stock eliminator class? If you read the NHRA stock car engine blueprint guide you'd see that you are "limited" by stock specs...for cam, heads and intakes along with a host of other rules.

 

Blockhead that's pretty funny...LOL

 

Where's the stock Eliminator L98 Class ?


lol

 

Btw if you scroll up you will Notice your the only one who mentioned the lt4 Cam - Everyone else was talking about the LT4 HOT.

Why don't you take your little program and put this into it....


211/219* @ .050
.533/.560" lift
112 LSA

 

lets calm down fellas.....

lets take a look at this for a second.......

so far from my understanding the debate is the stock factory l98 cam is making more power than a lt4 cam.....

now i'm sure desktop dyno can pretty accuratly predict hp for certain givens...... but as mentioned there just not alot that destop dyno can acuuratly compensate for......

if you notice take any motor and put a 100hp shot of n20 on it..... it gives 100hp more hp than it gave before at the same rpm...... now i know for a fact the peak hp isn't going to occur at the exact same rpm and by the exact nuber hp shot of n20 like it says........

it going by what was programed into it...... everyones combo isn't going to be the same.... it's like if you take a modified 383 and build another just like it in every manner i gaurentee it will have to be tuned differently and will not make the same hp.....

thats like saying just because we have the exact same cars we have the exact mpg and economy as each other.... thats just insane.... yeah it will be close but not the same....

thats why alot of people have strayed away from programs like this...... because when accuracy is the game nothing can be left to questioning.......

yes i used dd2000 for my 383... and yes it gave a certain hp and tq number, but i don't belive it.... in fact everything i have read in magazines has showed that dd2000 havs always been shy of the actual numbers the motor put out.....

now anyone thats been around automotive stuff knows that if you take 2 cams and one is bigger in every way then its going to make more power...... yeah not at the same rpm but more duration and lift will allow more fuel and air which means more hp.......

the stock l98 cam was made in mind of emmisions and economy..... gm was happy with what the tpi put out as far as torque, and to me didn't much bother with a hotter cam because emissions would come into play again.......

it's like the rustangs of the late 80's.. if they had the standard 5.0 they wouldn't be as popular as they are now... but they had a 302ho which was nothing more but a hotter roller cam....... thats what made em fast..

 

You telling me that L98 Fbody's and Vettes are not part of the stock eliminator class racing in the NHRA? Wow now that's pretty naive isn't it?

My 1989 GTA with a 350 cu.in engine has a NHRA stock classification of 13.53. I am not sure what class this puts my car into because I don't have a 2003 NHRA rulebook handy but my car is listed in the classification guide....hence it is part of the NHRA Stock Eliminator class racing.

 

I am pretty sure that is done purposely to allow people to feel pleasantly surprised if/when they actually build something.

Imagine if it put out a rating of 400 HP and 450 ft.lbs and then the engine only produced 350 HP and 380 ft.lbs....out of disappointement most people wouldn't use the software again...but if the opposite happened most would use it and factor in that's the software is lowballing the numbers....

Again, this isn't the only thing needed to build an engine, I was just using it to show something....others seem to put words in my mouth, so please read what I say and then respond...not what others misquote mo on!

 

At the risk possibly helping the original poster, I'll offer up these calculations...

SDPC Intake + Vortec heads + Visual inspection + Fremont, Ca. = Do Not Pass Emissions.

Back to who's is the longest.

 

Why did no one mention the ZZ9 or the ZZ9x or the ZZ409 ( tis a more improved ZZ4 grind ) and they carry proms to support the cams

BTW .... the L98 cam isn't made for that higher revving setup. It would fall on its face after 5000 rpm ( not litterally) . If you have had all this work done ( I.e Upgraded heads from SDP ) I would say go with something more suited for that

BTW i am not as skilled as these guys haveing the pissing contest:sillylol: But I think that someone mentioned speaking with comp cams :rockon: DO IT!!!!!


Hay guys ....if you put your heads together ............ sounds like you could rule the motorsports world ....... I actually mean that!

 

I just hate to see somebody invest in a set of heads only to have them go to waste using a stock cam. A ZZ4 cam can be bought for chicken scratch in any good classified ads or ebay. And it will far and away outperform the stock L98 cam in any application. Not because it is a wild design with compromises. But because it is in fact so mild it is basically carrying stock duration numbers while offering incredible increases in ramp rate, which increases airflow across the board, which increases power.

This isn't about what can be accomplished if you're trying to run stock eliminator. Of course those guys run great numbers, they spend more time and money researching and perfecting that one combo than most would in a lifetime. And THAT is why they go fast. Not because the stock parts are so good, but because they tried so hard, put in the time and made it perfect. How else can a stock eliminator 305 get over 300hp out of something that came stock with less than 200. If the stock parts were good as it was, all of 'em would go that fast.

 

Ok seriously. You can buy a ZZ4 cam and a set of springs to handle it for less than a set of 1.6 rockers. Why wouldn't you swap is beyond me.

 

i have a question... will edelbrock e tec 200 heads bolt up to and tuned port...

 

No, they have a vortec bolt pattern so you need a vortec specific intake like teh SPDC base, miniram III, etc

 

ed can you explain the difference between the two patterns please

thanks

 

OMG! I was just reading to see what was a good cam for that setup. I could not believe the pissing match I had to read through. Anyways I will ask the question again, as I have a similar affair. What was a good cam for it?

Oh I do have a stock L98 cam..

I will sell it for $5,000,000 USA.. any buyers?

 

I've had the exact same question for the longest time now. originally i was going to go with the zz-9, however i think i'll go ahead and go for the zz-409. All the mods are in the signautre, cam is all thats left to buy. I've just been a little reluctant to drop $400 for a cam to have not heard anything with those who have it. Of course I know I'm not a third gen owner, but hey, a TPI almost makes me one of the bunch

 

Less lift, less duration.. and it makes more power. Rocket science!

As to the original question, it cannot be answered. You left out a variable or two, the important one being, what do you want out of the car? I wouldnt even pick one without knowing that first.

 

The first thing you need to test when thinking of using a stock L-98 cam is it's durability. First you need to take the stock L-98 cam and raise it over your head. Next you throw it across the room. If it does not break, then use it.

I would never even remotely recommend using the stock L-98 cam for any setup, considering there are better choices that make more power on a bone stock engine, let alone one with better flowing heads ect. . The only real exception is forced induction on stock heads, and even here the only reason would be for a budget setup ( just add rockers for more lift). There are cams that can also pass emmisions and have great drivability, yada yada ...and make much more power than a stocker L-98.

Please also do not quote the DD software as being anything more than a seriously generalized ball park figure of h.p. and tq. DD will not prove anything one way or another and it's data should not be taken for anything more than a serious general guesstimate..

 

Thanks.

 

Not to start a new pi$$ing contest but why do you guys say this about desktop dyno...I ask because I have had some nominal success with it but want to know whether you all speak from experience or what you've read or heard.

Also I saw in another post on this message board that people were using EA. What is that and where can I find it?

The way I look at things is the more tools you have at your disposal the more accurate you can get with your engine build ups.

So if you guys don't use Desktop Dyno(to help) then what do you use? Afterall it is 2003, there must be something available to help people make choices of components for an engine buld up. Now obviously these can't take everything into account, but can't they even be used as a guideline? Engine building has a lot of variables, air/fuel, static compression, quench area, combustion, friction from piston/rings/cylinder walls, weight of rotating assembly and others but what the software can do, I suspect is help to baseline an engine build up.

It will definately tell you if the cam you choose is way off, at the least!

 

Other Peoples Sucesses and Failures. There isnt likely to be an engine combination You can think of that hasnt been tried by someone else first. You just need to find those people and get their results.

Having Spent 3 Years on this board, and In the local Scene - You see a Lot of stuff Get tried. Some of it works great, Alot of it Doesnt. Learn from other's mistakes.


Desktop Dyno Is IMO rather useless - I have a Copy of it on my computer someplace someone gave me, and I havet even botherd to Install it.

Sure It may give you a Ballpark Figure that is accurate +- 50 HP - But honestly what good is that ? I can give you that Figure off the top of my head on Most Common Combinations. That Margin of error is completely useless for compairing anything useful - like wich Cam will make more power.

Sure if One cam made 320 HP in an engine on DD and another made 450, It would have told you something. But you don't need Desktop Dyno to Show you that. You can look at a Cam with a 206/209 @ .050 and one with 230/236 @ .050 And Come to that conclusion On your own.

When your talking marginal HP gains +- 20 Hp Wich you are often faced with when debating slightly differant cam grinds in the Same "Class" of Performance - then its totally useless.

Compare a Lpe 219/219 Cam to the LT4 HOT Cam In desktop Dyno Using the same engine, And see what you get. Similar Cam's as far as Duration is concerned, but subtle diferances Wich will decide if the motor is just okay, Or outstanding depending on other factors.

Desktop Dyno Won't help you decide one bit. The only Thing you can Do is look at what other people have done in the past, and Learn from them.

 

Here is what DD2000 shot out for a stock L98 with the Hot cam

 

And here is the LPE 219:

 

Is this what you expected? Obviously the setup(stock) is not ideal but for our discussion hear it may help. How far off is this?

Oh and hear is a completely stock setup. All these are with the Aluminum L98s by the way.

 

Ok let me try here. I am wondering the same thing. what cam would give the best overall HP and torque through the entire powerband? I had plans to do the HSR but I thinks its gonna be too exspensive after I find the right heads and stuff. So,, with the vortec tpi setup and a car that I will drive everyday and race on accassion, what cam will benfiet this setup the most. I am running a t56 and 3.73's and may go back to nitrous. I feel the HOT cam makes good power past 5000 but the stock tpi setup runs out at 4500 or so so whats there to gain from the HOT cam? I am not disputig the HOT cam just asking a question.

 

The hot cam is popular because it is cheap IMO. Compared to the LPE grinds it might as well be free, and is even a good amount cheaper than an off the shelf comp grind. And then factor in how many go up for sale used when LT1 guys decide to move up to something bigger, and you can usually pick these up for nothing.

But other than that, it works pretty good anyway. The best LTR example of the hot cam on this site is Kevin91Zs car. 320ish HP and 410ish TQ at the wheels, 12.9 @ 110 (might be 112, i forget exactly) with a bad 60' as well. But that's true LTRs with ported vette heads that probably flow what vortecs do out of the box. IIRC, if you look at Kev's dynos, you can see the LTRs really choking the combo off the top as again, IIRC the power just flattens out past 4500 where it should keep climbing. So while this choking might seem to imply less cam would be a better idea, it's not like you could really expect much more out of a NA 350 anyway.

You definitely wouldn't want to run more than the hot cam with an LTR setup on purpose. But the hot cam would offer you room to grow down the road if you do ditch the LTRs, and can probably be had for less than some of the other options like the LPE 211 or ZZ9, etc.

 

LTR mean Long tube runners. IF so then where does the edelbrocks fit into this?

 

Right, LTR = long tube runner. If you buy the edelbrock base and put a form of LTR on it then you have an LTR combo. Or you could run something like the AS&M semi siamesed runner, or port a set of SLPs yourself and be a little better off on the top end.