Ok so I took my car to be dyno'd today and I'm not happy at all with my results. My power curves were pretty good, just all too low......torque peaked at 323.7 at 3400 and horsepower peaked at 254.6 at about 4800.
Here is my setup.....someone please give me some ideas to bring my numbers up to atleast 400 ft/lbs. and 300+ hp.
383 cubic inches
Roughly 10.04:1 Compression
AFR 190 heads (58cc I think...have to double check)
Edelbrock Baseplate
SuperRam Plenum and Runners
58mm Edelbrock Throttle Body
24# SVO injectors
Comp Cam 210/220 .50/.510 114LSA
Ed Wright chip.....had the car on WinALDL and everything looked good with the chip for the most part.
1 5/8 SLP headers
3 in Dynomax cat
Flowmaster American Thunder Cat-Back

I would really like to hear from some SuperRam guys who are making over 300 horsepower. Here is what I'm thinking might help, but I'm not sure......remove intake and heads for porting and polishing, bigger cam (suggestions welcome), and an exhaust cutout before the cat.

Once again I feel that for the money I spent on this engine these numbers SUCK so any and all help would be appreciated.

Thanks

 

I'm a SuperRam owner, not pushing 300 rwhp, but getting close.
I wouldn't start pulling stuff off yet for modding. You should be making some really decent power with what you have.
Sounds like a tuning issue.
As far as a cam, the LPE 219/219 is about as tried and true as you can get with a 383/AFR/SR combo. can't go wrong with that.
Port the intake, especially the base.
Still, you should be much higher with your current setup.

 

Wow running a 383 through 1 5/8 headers AND a Cat!!!

well that explains a huge part of it right there. The exhaust restriction is probably making it run extremely rich in the upper RPM's. You should be looking for over 400 HP with the rest of your set up.

 

What kinda fuel ratio did have during the run? How much timing ?
what is the cranking psi ?

 

What FP are you running? What about your timing? I assume you've gone over everything (tune-up etc) recently. And important question too is: What elevation are you at?

I have a very similar setup with stock injectors, stock runners, stock TB and ported stock plenum. I have a 383, with AFR 190s (about 10.3:1 CR), ZZ9 cam, Accel base, Edelbrock TES headers and Flowmaster cat-back.
My peak RWHP was 283 @ 4400-4500 RPMs and RW torque was 367FT-LBs @ 3900-4000 RPMs. At that time I was running an MSD 6AL with Blaster II coil which has since been removed (acted like it was cutting out intermittenly). I am adding the following soon: 58mm TB and 24# injectors (in garage) and the SuperRam plenum and runners (haven't ordered yet).

Oh yeah, have you ran your car at the track yet?

 

Wow, those numbers seem very low. I have a SR/LPE 219/AFR190 combo on a 355, 1 5/8" Edelcrap headers, full exhaust, etc. and ran 109.53 MPH in the 1/4 in a full weight, fully optioned IROC. I'm guessing the raceweight with me in it was 3650-3700 lbs, I weigh 280 lbs. This is without tuning. Based on my MPH, I was thinking I had about 325 rwhp and a ton of tq.

Maybe your cat is clogged??? What type of tranny and tq converter are you using? My stock tranny and TC slipped once this engine was in, until it blew up a few weeks later.

Also, looking at the specs on that cam, the intake side seems small for this combo, especially on a 383. I'd opt for a LPE 219 or even a custom grind slightly larger, I'd like to see something around a 224/224 .575/.575 w/ 1.6 rockers in a SR 383.

 

Pig out that edelbrock base.

Maybe port the Plenum and the runner entrances larger to the same sizes.

You could also portmatch the runner's to the base.

I imagine that would show some substantial gains throughtout your powerband.

 

Two things.

(1) your cam is a bit small and not really matched to the power curve of a superram or the needs of a 383. The duration is a bit too short and the LSA is a bit too wide which overall means you don't have enough overlap for high RPM running

(2) time to do some real PROM tuning

the headers should be fine (check out traxions' results with 1 5/8 headers) and as long as the cat isn't clogged it should be ok too.

The lpe219/219 cam as mentioned above wuold be a much better grind, or sometihng similiar to it (someone makes a 218/224 i think that would work too).

 

They didn't do wideband readings today because it was a free day for testing. I had my car hooked up to WinALDL about 2 weeks ago and according to a friend my numbers looked pretty much correct. My throttle runs were pretty much close to correct in the A/F dept. according to the BLM's and O2 readings. I was a little rich at closed throttle. I turned my fuel pressure down from about 50 to 46psi now. Also eventhough I wasn't getting any knock he suggested I turn my timing back like 2 degrees so I now have it set at 4 degrees.
My exhaust should be ok....it's all new and the car ran through emissions testing cleaner than the day it was new. I do think it's a little restrictive though....I'm going to probably put a cutout in before the cat when I get my SFC's.

What other tuning things should I be looking at? I have had a vac gauge hooked up to it recently and didn't really see anything suspicious. The only thing I've noticed, which I don't think would be hurting me is that when I set my fuel pressure, as soon as I turn the key to on and the needle shoots up, it bleeds off pretty quickly, but when it's running my pressure it steady.
Should I run a compression test on the engine the next time I'm home??
Also the tranny is freshly built and isn't slipping at all. It's a 700R4 with a converter only a few hundred above stock.

By the way does anyone have an estimate on what it would cost to have an intake ported/polished and maybe heads milled and ported?

 

I'm also running a SR/219/AFR 190 setup but on a 350. I haven't dynoed my car but my guess would be around 315-320 rwhp based on my trap speeds. My heads and intake are straight out of the box....no porting at all. I agree with the others that your cam may be on the small side especially with a 383. You can't go wrong with the 219 cam or something similar (or bigger) that builds cylinder pressure early.

 

I'm not sure how much more work can be done to AFR's out of the box. But I imagine anything that assured decent improvements would run you between 350-600 bucks depending how extensive the work you want done is.

To port and polish the plenum and base around the same would'nt surprise me. Having a shope do it will assure you some of the gain you're looking for, but the labor costs might outweigh said gains. You might want to look into porting your own intake stuff, and let a shop take on the heads.

 

I just talked to my friend and he said that we might be able to pick up some substantial horsepower gains if we burn a new chip from scratch so I'm going to hope for the best. This is going to happen around the first of March so I'll be waiting eagerly. I'm also going to get an exhaust cutout soon and play around with the LPE 219 cam in DD2000.

If I can get to like 300hp and 380ft/lbs I can live with that for now and then do some porting work later.

 

this is just me, and i could be wrong, but i would go with a bit more head... how about some AFR 210's would bring in more air, and with a bigger cam, would deff. get u where u wana be... 383 does gobble up a lot of air... i would go with a little bit better flowing head then that... and deff. try to get the base ported as much as posible... with that u could probably clear 300... just thought i would throw in my .02 cents...

 

Yeah I've been starting to think I went too conservative with the heads. I should have gotten the 195's, but I've heard they have problems with oil leaks or sealing or something like that??

It would be hard for me to get bigger heads now cause I don' t know how much I could sell the 190's for and I'd definately be shelling out more money I don't have for bigger ones.

 

I just re-read your post. You have an 89? Are you using the stock computer setup (including a MAF sensor?)

If so, you very well could be maxing the MAF sensor out. The MAF sensor measures how much air is going into the motor. Once the MAF sensor maxes out (at 255 gms/sec), the computer is no longer able to add any more fuel, thus the further you go above this limit the leaner the mixture becomes.

Check out the DIY PROM board, there is some good solutions on how to solve this, including (if I remember correctly) using a fuel adder vs. RPM table, and simply switching to a '730 computer and speed density (get rid of your MAF sensor altogether and get an easy to tune computer and a cleaned up intake path, no restrictive MAF sensor). There's plenty in there to learn, I don't know too much of it because I already have a MAP car (91).

Either way - learning to tune PROM's will make things like adjusting fuel pressure and distributor timing a thing of the past. You just set fuel pressure at ~45psi, timing at 6, and you're done for good. everything else is done in the pROM.

Do you have any ALDL data logs? Can you post them?

 

Your heads are not too small and nor is the exhaust. Traxion has proven this in the past. Here's quotes from two of his posts, running AFR190's, SLP's 1 5/8 headers, ....... His results indicate an easy 350 RWHP, probably more.

 

The more I think about it, the more I think your cam is what is holding you back, it may be the only thing. The AFR 190's are fine for this setup, they flow more than enough. 1 5/8" headers may or may not be optimum, but they are not holding you down to 254 HP. The MAF may end up being close to being maxed out once you get the power up, but it will not hold you to 254 rwhp by any stretch of the imagination, assuming it is working properly.

I would definitely get a LPE 219 or little larger cam. No if's, and's or, but's. You will not make anywhere near the potential power w/ 210 duration.

I would also either gut the cat, get a high flow cat if you must, or put in a straight pipe.

PROM burning will optimize the setup and give you a lot better drivability. But I still think the cam is just not matched to your combo.

 

buckeyeroc, whats the approximate HP level that a stock MAF maxes out at? anyone know? I know it's a problem, but I don't know when it becomes a problem since I don't own one and haven't researched it.

If memory serves me correctly from what i've seen, a stock L98 can barely hit 200 gms/sec, which should mean you have 25% room for growth in overall HP. If the L98 is assumed to be 240HP, then theoretically you can hit around 300HP +/- on a stock MAF before maxing it, and maybe a bit more (325?) before you signifigantly alter the AFR because of it.

sorry, don't mean to hijack the post

 

Well, I don't know if there is a way to figure out the exact HP it maxes out at, it maxes at 255gm/sec. I've seen C4 Vettes with stock MAF's running low-mid 11's though N/A.

This is from a thread I dug up in the PROM section,
"Experience with a variety of setups. But, there is no "hard and fast" calculation because it all depends on airflow characteristics of the engine (and the MAF sensor itself - screw with the screen/heat sink affects the signal for a given flow).

Generally, the bigger the engine, the quicker you'll max the MAF. The more air the engine can flow, the quicker it'll max the MAF. Also, with TPI, if they CAN max the MAF, they will do it at lower rpms (because that's where they emphasize the air flow) than say a Miniram."

"it's definietely NOT an opinion. I have yet to see a well tuned 383 NOT max the MAF (they've all been 350+ HP)."

That was from this thread: https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...ht=max+out+MAF

 

Before you go and install another cam , and hope for the best check out this site . For $35 dollars , its cheapier than doing a cam, guess . even if it might be a well educated guess , its still just a guess . This site seems to have technology to do a 99% accuracy hit on cam selection . At the very least read his articale , then do a search for more info on this guy .

 

http://www.davidvizard.com/camshaft.html

 

 

Thanks for all the replies. I'm going to definately dial in a better chip first and maybe add a cutout and cut the bottom out of my airbox. I'll see where that gets me and go from there I think.

 

The cam in your car I would have to agree, it's to small, hell the cam I had in my car is 224/228 510 510 112 and I think it to small for my 408. Car is very streetable, almost as streetable as having a 305 or 350, very tame.

But what I want to know is what was or what is your total timing now?.........One thing I have learned and seen first hand is that my engine does not like a lot of timing. I'm running a total of 32* at WOT on the dyno and can probably/should have taken a little more out.

What ever you do, definately keep us posted on your changes. It's nice to see people share info back and forth and see what works and what doesn't work

 

I'm not much of an expert on cams. Although you would benefit from a bigger one you should have much more HP hidden in your combo.

I have the TPIS ZZ9 cam which isn't too radical (actually mild on intake side): 212/226 @ .050, .483/.520 lift, 112 deg sep. I am running 1.6 RRs though.

You never said what elevation you were at.

Check this page out too. LOTS of dyno results for different combos. Remember that these are done on the motor so deduct 20% to compare to your rear wheel numbers (for auto trannies):

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/7610/dyno.htm

 

I will definately keep you posted on my changes, however they will not happen for about a month. By the way I should be at pretty much sea level here in NJ.

 

Wow Paul.... you are from bound brook, nj? I am at rutgers in NJ. Not to far.

As far as the "wow" goes... "It went through emissions testing cleaner than when it was new." Cleaner than new with a 383 = WOW

 

L98 Rutgers is only 10-15 min from me...I'm in that area often actually. Yeah I couldn't believe how clean my car ran last summer when I got it inspected. Nice looking car you got there.....you should come to some of the meetings in Bridgewater once the Spring comes.

 

From tuning on my car, I see a couple of problems that you are having.

First, set your base timing back to 6*

Second, you should run NGK-R UR-4 spark plugs (higher heat range)

Third, turn your fuel pressure down 2 lb's.

Fourth, you NEED MSD ignition and good wires.

Fifth, you should switch to Speed Density (730) ecm. MAF setups kill power.

Sixth, no offense, AFR heads aren't the best like everyone claims. If you have to use AFR's, go with 195's. Even the 195's only flow 252 cfm at .600 lift.

Seventh, cam is wrong for your setup. I recommend Comp Cams XR268HR-12 I think thats the one. Specs are 218/224 duration at .050 on a 112 LSA and 108 ICA. Or go even bigger like the one I'm running (XR276HR-12).

Eighth, use 1 3/4 in. lontubes (383's like to breath!!)

Finally, more PROM tuning for your SD ECM.

I'm not by no means criticizing, the above is just what I'd do. Your tranny maybe robbing excessive power as well. I have no Rear wheel numbers yet, but I do know that I'm making more than 400 at crank and that's naturally aspirated. Before you go spending tons o cash, try one through four first and take her for a spin. I bet it will run ALOT better and feel plenty faster! I hope this helps.

Mike (1bad91Z)

 

look, paul.. no more meetings up north! JR.. next meeting were gunna have is in Red Bank at the bilards... (Paul,i hope your talkin about the meeting we had not to long ago) anyway.. next meeting we got is comin down south

 

I have an MSD box sitting at home that I've never installed.....maybe I'll throw that in when I'm home again. Also I can change the plugs too if you really think it will help. Currently I'm running Accel wires, do I need something better? As far as the headers being too small, I'm still not too concerned with them cause in the last few issues of CHP when they tested their 400hp 383 they actually got better numbers with the smaller headers. I think the exhaust cutout will help me get some more breathing and I still want to get another lower intake box so I can cut the bottoms off of it.
BigAl I was actually talking about the meetings that are held once a month at Car Parts on 22, not the one we had at Friday's. However that was a fun night too.

 

Not meant to be confrontational, but....

(1) I totally agree with you on the timing, go back to stock and tune it in the PROM

(2) Why would you need these plugs over, say, whatever AFR calls for? I've got a pair of fastburn heads on a 406 in my 71 camaro, using the plugs GM calls for, and they work fine. As long as the plugs aren't fouling out or getting buildup on them (too cold) or causing pinging/pre-ignition/run-on (too hot), they should be fine.

(3) This ones a toss-up. If someone set his PROM up to expect 24# injectors with 50lbs of pressure on them, then the calibration could be too lean. Better to monitor ALDL data and determine what to do with the fuel pressure (or set it factory stock and work only in the PROM, ideally)

(4) Why? MSD ignition isn't even "MSD" above ~ 3000rpm, and it really won't buy you any performance at all unless something is actually wrong with the stock system (in which case it's cheaper to fix the stock system). Plenty of people go wicked fast without MSD. I don't think it's needed at this power level - a 10:1 street motor is just no problem for stock ignition.

(5) I agree that 730/SD is the better system, but at this point the car needs to get sorted out first. He could easily get this motor going under a MAF system.

(6) If AFR heads aren't basically the best for this type of application, what is? Pretty much everyone who runs them has had great success with them, better than trick flow / vortecs / world products / anything else i can think of. If I remember correctly, the 195's need an intake manifold with bigger ports (they are designed for large single plane manifolds with larger ports).

(7) Totally agree the cam is wrong for the setup and the single biggest thing holding him back.

(8) longtubes are nice, but not really practical if have to deal with smog, and then the probability of needing a heated o2 sensor, etc. SLP's 1 5/8 shorties have been found to flow good enough to go deep into the 12's and push 350+HP. Again, a case of sort the car first.

 

I dynoed 300 rwhp at 4600 and 380 tq with 383, 9.1 comp, stock AFR 190's, SLP 1 3/4 headers, 58mm TB, edelbrock base with ported superram runners, crane 214-220 .452 .465 cam, and the factory 2 cats going into the SLP 2 on the left exhaust, 2400 stall 12" convertor and 3.27 gears.

The MAF sensor is not your problem. If you look at the pic in my sig, you will see I ran some 3" plasitc tubing with an open k & n filter instead of the stock round airbox. That will help some. I'm making 350 rwhp now with the wells maf sensor with major mechanical problems. The 165 code and the maf sensor are fine. SD isn't worth the swap to me and tuning the ve tables. Work with what you've got for now.

Did you record data from your runs? Without data, you are lost in the woods without a compass.

The cam is not your problem. You can make decent power with that cam.

Ed likes to run 13.2-13.3 AFR on his chips from what I've seen. Send me your .bin and I can see if I can find any big differences between yours and my superram bin.

 

I'm running the Delco plugs that AFR suggests so I'm guessing they are fine....no fouling or buildup on them. Also I didn't really think I needed the MSD box for this car so I figure I'll save it for the 69 I plan on building next.
I will send out my .bin in March when I do the new chip cause I don't have the software to read it. Right now I'm thinking chip tuning and airflow are killing my power....I think I should be at atleast 300 horse if not in the 325 range. Maybe over the summer once I've graduated and have a job I'll pull my intake for some porting, but right now it's my only car and I don't have any money to spend on it.
Keep the ideas coming though because I'm getting a lot out of this.

 

What did the data scans say your O2 readings were? E-mail Ed and let him know. I had to send my chip back 5 times and still ended up burning my own.

The MSD will help more than you think.

I ran the AC FR3LS plugs in mine with no problems. FR5's are a little hotter, and the FR2 and FR1's are colder if you can find them.

 

I don't have the O2 readings right now....I'll have to e-mail the guy who logged the data for me.

 

let me warn ya before try a cam change to be sure to try to turn it by hand say with a flexplate/flywheel turner.....

now with that being said, try this cam.....

it's a comp 282hr cam with a small base circle and a 112* lsa for better tunability.......

if ya want exchange the last 112 for 114lsa and you will have gobs pf torque... it's gonna lope but it's very streetable still......

grind no: cs3315s-3316s-hr112+4

its specs are

at .050

intake exhaust
230* 236*
.340 .347

dude, no offense, but you need a bigger cam, no reson to waste 1200$ heads.....

good luck and i hope it works out for ya......
lobe seperation 112.0

 

I think most people would agree other than tuning you need more cam, For those of you guys recomending the LPE 219, (while it is a proven cam selection with the superram) most likely with bigger headers. I think he would benefit more with a Lt4 Hotcam with its longer exhaust duration due to having the smaller 1 5/8 headers and would cost half the price. It appears that Paul is trying to keep his car emissions legal, People are getting their cars out here in California through smog testing with the hotcam so I would possibly try a little bigger than that even!
Good Luck Paul, Other than the cam, that is quite a nice package of parts you have put together.

 

I passed the emissions test with the combo I said above that made 300 rwhp and with the LPE 219 cam. The LPE 219 is way more aggressive than the hot cam.

As long as he can burn his own chips, he can get by the emissions test.

 

In everything that I have seen, the SuperRam prefers the single duration. That thing really likes the 219/219. Could it be that the same guy that designed the intake designed the cam to work with it?

PROM tuning and a 219/219 cam will not cost very much, you will get your power back. That cam is choking you out, the headers are no big deal, and the tuning should be set through the chip only. If you advance the timing, then it won't do anything, the computer will still only advance the timing through memcal at WOT. That little bit might be making it knock.

I have read alomst every single post, and I only have one question for Paul. Is your chip setup to run with those SVO injectors? If not and you are running at 50psi, then you are pushing 27# of fuel at the injectors. You need to remember that those injectors are rated for 24# @39.5psi. Check with ED, and see if he did that for you.

 

Yes the chip is set for the 24# injectors.
I appreciate all the cam suggestions....any cam change will not take place until the summer however because I don't have time to do it during school.

 

I highly suggest fixing the exhaust before even trying to tune.
Your exhaust system is an enormous restriction on that engine. What size are your collectors 2.5" ?? maybe a little bit less at the narrowest point? That's horrible.
I've seen a 383 pick up 40 RWHP by switching from 1 5/8" shorties with 2.5" collector
to 1 3/4" full length with 3" collectors.
The 383 was running extremely rich in the higher RPMs due to the exhaust restriction with the 1 5/8".

I can't believe you haven't cut your air boxes! The air boxes are a restriction on a stock 305, and the Y-air duct is a restriction on a stock 350. You really need to run at least a 3.5" air tube to a cone filter like the one guy suggested.
I have seen a SD 383 gain 20 RWHP just by removing the air ducting & running just an exposed throttlebody.... his air boxes had already been cut at that point & no MAF in the way either since it was Speed Density.

You have to fix those extreme restrictions in the system first IMO,
then maybe go from there with the tuning. The LPE219 wouldn't be a bad idea IMO.

 

For now I'm going to try keeping the stock y setup, but I am going to get another lower box and cut the bottoms completely off and use that in the spring/summer/fall. I would like to keep the old one for the winter so I don't pull tons of salt and sand into my filters.
I'm also pretty sure that the SLP headers have 3 inch collectors don't they? Either way if I put a cutout into the y-pipe before the cat, won't that help substantially?

 

The SLP collectors are indeed around 2.25". The 1 5/8 headers have also been deep into the 12's and made 350+ HP. The collector size isn't "great" but it's not all that bad.

Folks have also gone well into the 12's (and i think i've even seen a few 11's) on the stock camaro air intake system. have heard the firebirds are more restrictive due to the lower hood line.

A 230/236 cam? On a MAF setup? yikes. much more tuning is going to go into that and you might start to encounter problems with the MAF reading correctly (have read this is a problem with high overlap cams, reversion across the MAF sensor, etc.)

The LPE219 with a superram and AFR190's is time tested and proven like hot dogs, apple pie, baseball and....well, you get the idea. You really can not go wrong with this setup, tons of guys have built it (especially a lot of the vette guys on their forum) and it just flat works.

 

The others have said the same thing I would of.

Different cam, slightly better exhaust.

My superram'd 350 with a 219 cam, 1.75" headers and GM D-Port heads made 322rwhp and 369 ft/lb on the first try without any tuning and the stock 48mm TB. <shrugs> I also should mention it made over 300rwhp all the way from 4400 to 6300 RPM where I shut it down. I'm hoping to pick up a few more HP and a lot more TRQ with tuning.

A friend of mine with a slightly similar setup to you (very slightly bigger cam, 1.75" headers, canfield heads) made 379rwhp and over 400 ft/lb with his 383.

 

Scorp can you get me a way to contact your friend with the similar setup? E-mail or AOL screen name would be best.
Does anyone know what size the small extension SLP uses to go into a single cat is? I think 3in, but I'm not sure....I'm gonna guess this would be the best place to put a cut-out in??

 

Now, I dont know if everyone missed this, but you said your fuel pressure was quickly bleeding off. Thats a problem. the pressure in the rails should hold indefinatley. Check your FPR diaphragm for tears, wear, and such. If thats bad, it will let fuel through it, and be fired into the plenum via the vacum hose: hence running extremely rich. If its fine, the you need to check out the injectors for leaks. Also test the OHMs on them as well. The best thing I can tell ya is to do a full throttle run with the fuel pressure guage hooked up, look for a drop in pressure at WOT.

Good luck!

 

Yeah I'll have to throw a gauge on it the next time I'm home again. The regulator is brand new, but I guess it could still be a defect possibly, but I don't think I was running too rich up top.
I'll have to definately get some wideband tuning done on it after the new chip.

 

Paul...I see you have the Edelbrock TB. I had to put a spacer between the cable and gas pedal on my car. To open the TB all the way when the pedal was floored.

Thats interesting about the stock y airbox being such a restriction on that SD 383. I swapped mine out for one of those KN cone filters. And gained nothing on the dyno over my stock y intake with KNs and the buttoms cut out. The hood was up and the air was pretty cool so heat wasnt a factor. IM not sure how much the KN Cone filter I used flowed though. Maybe if I had ran some type of pipe. To get the filter away from the TB some the results might have been different. Might have flowed better that way.

I dont think the headers are holding you back that much if any. Before I installed SLP 1 3/4 headers. My car made over 300 at the wheels with a set of Edelbrocks and two blocked cats.

 

Hmmm......I thought I was having a problem with the throttle not opening because the car was hit in the front a few years back. Guess not. I shimmed mine up a little bit at the pedal.....it opens up to full now or damned close. It's going to kill me waiting a month to get this new chip burned, but hopefully it'll be worth it. Other than this I can't put much more money into it for now because I have to pay my parents back the money from my paint first.