85TPI400

I thought I would bring up an interesting subject to see what eveyone thought about this.. If the LT1 intake is a superior flowing design, How come Lingenfelter made a superram for the LT1 engines.

Opinions Please!

I can probably guess what people are going to respond but
this brings me to the next question, Seeing that LT1s and minirams are similar, How can people say the Miniram or LT1 is superior to the superram? (Prices aside).

Ed Maher

If the LT1 superram is so superior, how come i have never seen one installed on an LT1 except maybe in a lignenfelter catalog.

If i'm not mistaken, there are people running low 9s, maybe even 8s on stock Lt1 intakes. It flows pretty well.

85TPI400

Not that it means or answers anything but here is somone who went for it!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...&category=6168

Iroc n roll

Correction, this guy went for the LPE power package which just happend to come with the intake. LPE likes to sell "tuned" packages, you see the same stuff with the TPI Super Ram. Just because the package is good doesn't mean that the parts can hold their own individually. Also you can't assume that the LT1 SR and TPI SR flow the same. Its very possible that LPE purposely made the LT1 SR much more high flowing than the TPI SR. I think the true tests of performance are the facts that 4th genners like Ed said, hit times under 10's with the stock intake.
It's an interesting way of looking at the intakes but it's really apples to oranges.

Ed Maher

Right. They're both options, and both different. Depending oin what you're looking for, they both can go fast.

MikeH

iTrader: (10)

I will tell you why he made a SuperRam for the LT1. Torque and drivabilty thats why...I know of one LT1 owner who did this very thing and thats why he was installing the SuperRam. He wanted to increase torque and drivabilty. The LT1/Miniram design is all about topend power. Thats great for the track.. but not always the best for part throttle responce and street manners. Peak numbers are not always the best thing for a street car. Area under the curve is more important for a fun street car. Thats what LPEs packages are designed for. The LT1 was designed to fit under a low hood line. GM didnt get it right till the LS1 came along.
Why do you think they added the runner length?

The Plenum for the LT1 SuperRam had to be cut down about 5/8 of an inch to clear the lower hood line. This resulted in a 10 horsepower loss over the TPI design.

scorp508

The TPI and LT1 superram lower intake manifolds are cast from the same molds. After this is done the correct intake bolt holes are drilled into each.

85TPI400

MikeH,
I am willing to bet the guy you know who did this was not at all dissapointed with the end result. We seem to be the only ones so far with this point of view, your message pretty much sums up my take on this subject. Even the numbers in the TPIS insider hints book show the superram pretty much working the miniram throughout the powerband in TQ and HP up until 5500 RPM where the MR starts to make 7 more HP than the SR. This particular test was on a 383 engine, so it seems to me that a 350 would totally be lacking bottom end. It is kinda funny because the TPIS book is what actually sold me on the SR. In my opinion everything is about balance and I believe the Superram offers exactly that. I myself dont build my cars to live on the track and I dont think most of us on the board do, (I am not by any means saying it is wrong to do so), However, if I did I would save a whole lot of money and go with a carburetor set up.

Iroc n roll

Lacking bottom end?? Driveability problems?!?!? I don't know what the hell kind of LT1's you guys have been driving but I've never heard an owner complain of anything like this, myself included. And even if a different hp/tq curve is what your looking for you still cannot say that the LT1 SR is SUPERIOR to the stock LT1 intake. I can see where this is going, this is a good ol' MR vs SR debate (which is now a banned topic). Search the archives for every argument you can possibly dream of, just insert LT1 SR where you see SR or LT1 intake where you see MR.

MikeH

iTrader: (10)

I never said the LT1 lacked in anything....The LT1 has a nice flat torque curve. I never said it had drivability problems either. Yes it does flow well.. thats why it makes such good topend power. IM sure it blows the stock SuperRam out of the water in terms of flow.

But you cant change the rpm range where each was designed to run. Non tuned LT1 Short runner=TOPEND, Tuned length SuperRam longer runner=MIDRANGE power. Like ED said they both can go fast, each has its place. Just depends on what you are looking for out of the motor.

Have a nice day!

OMINOUS_87

I have a Superram plenum and runner setup that will be atop a SDPC base and E-tec heads. All parts are fully ported and polished from heads to plenum. I will tell you this however for the future, the SR plenum and runners do not just bolt up to the SDPC base. There is massive clearancing involved as one of the bolts on both sides for the base does not clear the runner because of the new intake bolt locations on Vortec/Fatburn style heads and intakes. FYI

John Millican

iTrader: (1)

Here's a dyno result comparing the SuperRam intake to a LT1 intake conversion. The dyno pulls were done on the same day and the only change was the intake.

http://www.lt1intake.com/PHR_Dyno.htm

tpi_roc

If you work in your engine bay, you'll become a quick fan of the LT1 intake.

You can pull an engine with it completely in place instead of spending all the extra time to disassemble the TPI or Super ram intakes.


John:

Interesting dyno results, what was the cam and heads on the engine?

OMINOUS_87

Agreed! Great info in the dyno charts John!

Please post the full engine details as we wait salivating for knowledge of the whole package.

OMINOUS_87

tpi_roc

I just installed my new SR motor with the intake completely assembeled on the motor and the trans bolted up as well. It dropped right in with no clearance issues at all. I imagine i could pull it in the same manner, but I would still spend time tearing it down in the stand. Assembling the SR while on a stand is very easy! Although it is still more then 12 bolts and has a bunch of gaskets. Nothing will ever match the ease of of removal involved with a miniram or LT1 setup.

tpi_roc

After a couple years of TPI I'll never touch it again unless boosted. For more than one reason, a major one being install/disassembly time.

The super ram is obviously a different animal, but you're right, it doesnt' get much easier than LT1/mini.

John Millican

iTrader: (1)

The engine belongs to Tom Casey, it was done on a chassis dyno in his beautiful '88 Camaro Convertable, his engine specs are:

379 CI (destroked 400)
9.3:1 CR
AFR 195's
Comp Cam 12-404-4
222/226 .494/.494 114 LSA
52mm TB
SLP 1 3/4" headers

ragtop88

Well thanks for the kind comments John.....;-) I'd be glad to answer any questions about the comparison in general, but I'd also mention that I wrote a complete article that is in the August issue of Popular Hotrodding. As John mentioned we did the swap from Super Ram to Lt1 intake in one day. I had dynoed at the shop when I first got there, swapped and then dynoed again afterwards......with some tuning as mentioned (we actually did a bunch of dyno runs, and at 2 am I'm sure the neighbors loved us). The goal of the swap was to compare just what the difference it was in intakes (understanding that the cam wasn't really the first selection for the Lt1 intake, although probably not the prime choice for the SR either, but it was a level playing field. I've since swapped in a much larger hydraulic roller cam and will be heading to the dyno tomorrow for some tuning to see if the intake likes this cam more.

John Millican

iTrader: (1)

Cool Tom, let us (or me) know how the new cam does on the dyno.

For those of you that can't see the August issue of PHR you can see Tom's perfectly written feature here. I scanned the pages and placed them online.

http://lt1intake.com/PHR2003AUG.htm

85TPI400

Excellent research guys, thanks for the info!

Spdfrk1990

any1 know where to get a used super ram

DannyT

eBay

OMINOUS_87

I got my SR plenum and runners for 500$ delivered off Ebay, they were dirty as hell but included all the bolts. Check at the corvetteforum as there always seems to be more SR parts for sale there Vs. anywhere else.

camarojoe

Just an observation, isn't the car that was dyno'd with both intakes faster in the 1/4 with SR? It definitely looks that way, since it has so much more avg. tq accross the curve. I guess the cam is kind of small though which would benefit the SR. It'd be interesting to see what would happen with a cam that has 230-240 dur. I'm planning on running a 236/236 cust. Comp cam with my 383 SR. I really don't think the SR is limited to short dur. cams contrary to popular belief, so I guess I'll post some numbers showing my dyno results in a few months.

OMINOUS_87

The SR isnt as sensitive to longer duration like the stock LTR setup is due mainly to plenum size. Sure the runners are 3 inches shorter but the plenum is near 3 times as large as a stock plenum. People have siamesed SR runners with no performance gain. My take on this is that the only reason a gain is made by siamesing stock runners, like modded SLP or AZSM, is that a larger plenum is needed to effevtively support a tuned runner under a condition of longer duration. Just my .02

Ragtop89

Tom, those are some impressive mid-range torque numbers for the SuperRam.

Keep us posted!

Knowledge is Power!!

ragtop88

I would actually say the car had the potential to be faster with the LT1 intake in this comparison. You'll notice on the 60' time for both the LT1 is about 0.065 seconds slower and on the top end the ET is only 0.047 slower. SO with a matching 60' the LT1 intake would have outpulled the SR on the top end........marginally. In all honesty I'd say I got the exact same place two different ways. SR did it with torque and the LT1 intake did it with HP. In terms of average numbers, they didn't plot the tables of numbers i had sent in but the here is the average and MAX values below, not a huge difference in the actual averages.
SR LT1
HP TQ HP TQ
Max: 335 392 343 361
Avg: 283 352 277 342

The biggest limiting factor for the car has been the driver I think. THe 1.962 60' represents my best thus far, I just need more practice and to maybe adjust the T/A a little bit more.

camarojoe

I actually just read the whole article. Wow, it's not everyday you find good thirdgen reading like this! I think the write-up on the intake swap was awesome! I see what you're saying, 88ragtop, about the potential of the lt-1 intake being able to produce quicker times if the car were set up for it. But right now if you put on a set of good slicks and with your current gearing the superram intake would beat the lt-1 every time in the 1/4. It's all about hooking up low-end tq. That's of course assuming that you're hooking both setups perfectly. You're not going to get the same 60ft. times with the two intakes. The superram 60ft times will always be better and it would shine even more with a higher gear like a 3.07. The lt-1 though would produce better 1/4 times with much more stall and say a set of 4.11 gears. But it's all about what you want of the car and how streetable you want it to be. Right now with your current setup, your car would run better times with the superram. All of this post relates to you running a set of race slicks of course, not streets, JMO.

MikeH

iTrader: (10)

Tom over what RPM range did you come up with those averages? Looks like there is alot bigger difference between them in the 2500-5500 range.

Thanks for posting the information about the swap. Those two curves are pretty much the norm for those two intakes.

ragtop88

The average was taken over the same range for both intakes which was 2500 to 6100. I'd agree that looking at the curves the averages shouldn't be that close but mathmatically they are I guess. Although peak HP is only up 8 hp I'm making 20 to 35 more HP and 20 to 30 more ft-lbs between 5700 and 6100. THe torque was fun with the SR setup and I won't downplay it, but I've gotten a liking to powershifting and winding it up so thats why I decided to keep the LT1 intake, there's no lacking of torque on the bottom end so the car is still plenty fun to drive.

fakezcar

Now I'm confused. I was told a HSR would be more benifitial on my set-up but I'm getting totally reworked set of iron heads to go with the cam. Check the specs in the sig. cause I'd like some opinions on which intake to use. My buddy has an LT1 he may get rid of, so I may go that way. What do you guys think?? HSR or LT1??

chris

Ragtop89

For my own personal preference I'll stick with the Super Ram.
All of this tire-blistering torque is wonderful.

Makes me smile!