my tune vs a custom hypertech

 

a/f ratio before and after

 

 

here is the best pull over all

 

This is my friends 383. It has a miniram/L98 heads(stock valves),GMPP roller cam, long tube headers. It has very high compression. We go 8 dyno pulls off today. It was hard to get the wot a/f ratio lined out because the hight load ve stuff was off. I made ecm changes between each pull. I got datamaster logs of each pull. I saved the bins for each pull. I can email you guys the stuff if you want a closer look. I will say that I learned that the ve tables must be lined out before you even think about wot stuff.

I did many changes to get the a/f lined out. But the timing was simple. You can see that the car liked 36* the best(run 7). 38* brought down power a hair. The a/f was so lean on the first pull I was afraid. So that is one reason I made it pig rich on pull 2. I shouldn't have made it that rich tthough cause it took awhile to balance it back out.

The log files are a little interesting. My friend put in a new o2 this morning. But you can see on all 8 pulls, the factory O2 is useless for wot tuning.

I also have the dyno sheets scanned for each run. So I have a nice little zip with the 8 dyno sheets,logs and bins. Might be fun for you guys to check out.

 

Very nice Tim. Looks like it is still a dash rich in the lower rpm.

However, not to be a bad guy. We would now like these posts over on the TPI board. I will leave your link so people over here can still see it and be directed to it.

 

Is that a chassis dyno and if so what type? also, could you go into more detail on the engine specs? what trans if applicable?

 

The reason I posted it in diy-prom is to disuss the prom changes that netted gains. That is why I saved all the dynosheets,bins and datalog. So that way we could look at what I did right and wrong. Have people give/take advice on what to improve(promwise). Cause I know that I would love to look over each bin and the resulting log and dyno, if someone else did this. There is alot to be learned by looking at the prom chanes and dyno sheets. I was planning on taking some snapshots of the tables I was working with. Post the changes I made in jpg form. But if you feel that it better in the tpi board then thats fine.

I know it was a tad rich. Did you see the original a/f ratio. It was like 17:1 in the lower rpms. So the richness was still an improvement. I had to juggle the ve numbers and the PE to get the a/f that close. I tried to get him to come over before the dyno.That was we could get the upper ve correct. Dyno sheet 8 lost a little power because of the 38* of timing. You can see in bin 8 that little else was changed.

 

It was a dynojet chassis dyno.

Specs:
miniram
L98 heads(stock valves)
GMPP roller cam
long tube headers
t-56 trans
4:56 gears
It has very high compression.

Would anyone like me to email then the dyno sheets and bin files. There is a bin for each dyno pull. You guys might have some advice or questions.


You can see that the custom chip that I beat out was JUNK. The only way to tune the ecm is to have the car in front of the tuner.My friend was soo happy he tried to pay me. But I told him to keep the money, I'm just glad his car is healthy.

 

You have to be careful with what the lower rpm stuff looks like, and VERY VERY conscience of how you apply the gas when you hit it on a power run. The TPS, and MAP AE can play havic with the AFRs.

It looks like you have a real good grasp on moving the AFRs around, to get what you want.

Email me with the final .bin

What brand WB are the dyno guys using?.
If they're using one that uses say a Bosch sensor, ask if you can bring your own so you know the sensor is the same from one session to another. If it's on of the bench gas types, they're not as prone to problems as one of the tail pipe sniffers.

 

it was a standard 5 gas wb,from what I understand. The owner put a fresh filter on it,if that matters. Terry has no converter and the borla straight through exhaust. So I would imagine it was fairly close. I think it's the wb that comes with the dynojet.

I over compensated for the first pull cause it was way lean. So the rest of the dyno pulls I was trying to lean it out. YOu'll see in the files I sent you that I had to really juggle things to get it lined out.

 

Nice numbers and good tuning!
I am really surprised that Mini Ram engine had more torque than HP. What RPM was the peaks?
That should make for a pretty stout machine.

 

4200/6000rpms was the peaks, I think.

Those heads are really choking the engine. Or should I say those heads are preventing the MR to really work. They are ported. But the l98's are 163 cc stock,so you know those ports could'nt be much bigger....

 

Could you define "very high compression"? what type gas was it using? Also, is that a hot cam? if not what are the specs? how the crap did it make over 350 fwhp with stock L98 heads? i assume they are ported......

 

Bear with me for a min here,
As I recall you have 2 sessions to get the car to this stage. Plus a fair amount of street time.

In less then 10 mins on the ecm bench I can tell you the following about your fuel (and for an extra min.'s worth of writting could have done the timing).

Pulse Widths in msec.

RPM In PE 20% TPS (non-PE)
6K 8.83 2.3
5.5K 8.71 2.3
5K 9.02 2.3
4.5K 9.48 2.41
4 10.07 2.65
3.5 9.9 2.76
3 10.27 3.11
2.5 10.15 3.1
2 10.39 2.85

And in less then an hour I could have set the PE DC for the 90% at max RPM and reverse engineered the 90-100 K/Pa values, at a commanded 12.5 or the oem +22.7% AFR, calc'd value.

Now who was it said ecm benchs are a waste of time?.
LOL
I bought the bench assemblied for $160 (and have done hundreds of WOT evaluations), and you spent how much in time and energy to get this car where it it?.

Don't take this wrong, and this isn't about me bragging, I'm just showing how effective ecm benchs and having a firm understanding of HOW the code works allow you to go fast with a min of wear and tear on the car.
And this is EXACTLY what I did on the 9 sec and 11 sec car I've previously discussed. 9-10-11-12-13-14 sec machines it all applies. And when you're dancing with 9 sec machines, it's sure nice to know where you're starting from, and what you can adjust how far before reaching something being dangerous.

Now if you look at the 90-100 K/Pa values you can see what needs changed to get the non PE mode PWs in line.
And it's those entries, that are what's critical, I'm sure your clear on how the VE entries effect WOT fueling. And as you go you'll see how those numbers move around, and that's a good and bad thing. It cuts down on how much chasing you have to do, but it shows how NON-TRANSFERRABLE .bin files are. And what good vs CORRECT really means.

This is why I was asking about how far along you were with the VE table, vs Peak Torque, once you have the VE entries right down there and know what max DC you want to use as a max, it all falls into line.

No this isn't something you can look at and understand instantly, it all takes work, ie tuning, and the ecm bench.

Hope this helps anyone stumbling into this thread.

 

Grumpy,

I totally agree with you about the ecm bench. It is a real time saver. The best thing is that you don't have to drve the ***** off the car to get the tune lined out. An ecm bench is where it's at. Thanks for running those bins though that bad boy. I'm going to learn how to set one up. I don't have a choice.

I do have alot of street time with the car. And I did take it to the dyno before. But my friend insisted on using the hypertech custom as a base. So I played his game. The car never responded to the changes in the hypertech chip. He had me transfering the timing from his mass air hypertech chip to the SD hypertech chip. Nothing really worked out. The whole time i was telling him that I need to start with a fresh OEM calibration and modify it from there. He just didn't want to because he "knew what his car could do with the hypertech". He admited that the hypertech chip didn't run good. So He finally gave in and I whipped out an axcn base. I set up the basic stuff and his car responded. So them I went to work.Got some timed runs in and knocke off .5 sec of the g-tech and datamaster. That is the base chip for dyno 1, in the scanned dyno sheets.

I do have the normal drive range of the ve correct. But I never hit those high load areas. So the ecm bench was correct, my upper ve was way off. I wish you could have sent me that bin file with the ecm bench'd changes. I wouldn't have looked like a tard, taking 8 pulls to get the a/f somewhat nailed.

I can get a car dialed in during one dyno session. But that ecm bench would have been sweet. That way I could have polished up the tune. Instead of taking 8 pulls to tune that beast.

Tim

 

Add one more to the list who've seen the light.


I really can't blame people for not seeing the advantages to the bench, it doesn't run on gas or make noise, so they just can't make the connection. In a way, I guess can be said for chip burning in general. BTW, that's not a slam, we all have our areas where we do well, and other areas, that we need help in.
But, given time the truth does get around. Consider it's been less then 5 years since prom burning started to get popular things have changed alot.

Now, get it to a track and see what ya do, LOL.

 

As long as he calibrates it once in a while, that's the way to go for dyno work. If ya think of it, ask him it it's Infra-red or Laser. Or does any one know if they've made the jump to Laser, and if so if they're still using chopper wheels and mass spectrometry? (s)

 

Am I the only one that sees 350 plus rwhp on stock L98 heads as odd? alot of miniram afr cars dont see that much. what does this car gtech at?

 

Ill bet those small runners really helped the torque, If you can get away with a small runner that flows well - go for it.

As far as the L98's being odd for that HP, He said they were ported and TPIS swears by them - but then again they also swear alot of false things.

 

for some reason i was thinking that he had stock "iron" l98 heads in it. duh. i have seen the al ones ported work really well.

 

11s said that they were ported but had the stock valves. He didn't mention if they were port matched to the Miniram & Felpro 1204. If they were, then they would be in the 180+cc range. I don't think he mentioned whether they were iron or alum.

And yes, Al L98 heads ported to a 1204 can flow quite well.

 

yes they are the aluminum l98's ported to hell. The thing is a monster. The launches are violen itt. We are hoping for 11.8-11.9 quarters. But the car has everything on it. Not to mention it only has air bags and stock suspension. The best he can hook is a 1.6 60ft. I'm trying to talk him into some v6 springs. I also want to weld up his LCA's and panhard. THen he'll just need to set the pinion angle. If he did that then he might get 118-120 mph. Hell, he might be close to that right now. With the hypertech he ran 12.3 @ 113 at the track . I'm sure he'll be faster than that. I have some timed runs I'll dig up.

He had the entire drivetrain in a 87 IROC (383/-T56/dana44 4:56 gears). He had that car for years. Went through many, many combos. He also is the type of guy that lives at the track. So his best time with the 87 with MAF and hypertech was 11.9 @ 115 . The car dyno'd 370 rwhp and 390 rwtq. He had to jack the fuel and distributor timing to get those numbers though.

The only difference between the drivetrain was the iroc had a digital ignition box and the v-belts with only the alt/water pump was ran. THe 92 SD has ac, smog and everything. And the other thing was that his rims are 18in chrome slugs. Trust me, wheel weight effects the dyno. It might be slight but I think it is correct because lighter rims at the strip will do the same thing.

When he puts a digital ignition box, high output coil short S-belt and lighter rims then it would be about where the MAF car was. I'm going to get some more timed runs in and it WILL exceed the maf figues. We both know it'll run a 11.9 or better at the track right now. Not to say the maf was a bad setup but the way he got those numbers with maf made the car undriveable on the street.

. It's not that. I think the sound of an ecm bech scares the average tuner. Some people are lucky to get driveability issues lined out. Others will just want to tune their car and forget about it. All four of my f-bodies are fuel injected. I dont think I'll ever have a carb. SO, I can see where an ecm bench will save time. Just like my car, I could have it nailed within a very short time with an ecm bench. I dont have one so I'll have to manually go through the tuning process. Hey, I though they was taking the tuning process too far. But I don't know everything. It took me a long time to really understand the maf system. If I was a really good tuner I would have had the a/f lined out in 3 pulls instead of 8. Heads milled= 11.5:1 CR
hot cam is way to mild
It's a GM performance parts cam. The biggest roller they have for the gen 1. Check the site for the specs

Oh, I forgot to add the injectors was slightly static. He's getting some 30lbers soon.

 

could you explain, me confused

 

this is the best we could do with the hypertech with my tuning on top of it.

 

tune that he pulled into the dyno with.These are not scientific but timed runs are important for the ecm tuning process..

 

Nice work Tim .

Me too.... So those PWs (the second column of numbers?) are what that bin is commanding? Is that end result PWs with VE and PE both engaged?

Not only that, how does tuning WOT fuel via PW work? Seems that the commanded PW would be very dependent on things like rail pressure and injector constant vs. actual injector flow (not the same from one mfg to another). I dunno.... Seems odd to me to look at it from that angle. Then again, I know next to nothing in comparison to many on this board.

I am currently working on my 383 PROM but have taken to tuning the part throttle VE tables via BLMs "method" for tuning... I have used VE Master to identify trends and have extrapolated from there using logged data and used the graphing function of TC to create my VE tables. I have AE and PE disabled entirely so VE is the only thing running the engine... Things have gone well so far. BLMs are coming online nicely and the engine definitely likes the results.