Need your help guys! I'm trying to get the most out of my engine an clearly I can't get there with the superflow heads I have, judging by your replies about them. So here are my options buy a set of Trick flow heads from ebay or buy a completely new set of AFR heads for $1295. There are a couple of Trick flow heads on ebay right now the Kenny Duttweiler Signature Series 23 Degree heads and the Twisted Wedge heads.

My question to you is which is better? Flow numbers favor the 23 degree on intake but favor the Twisted heads on exhaust. Should I just kick out the extra money for AFR? Is it worth it? A tech at Summit Racing said he believes that the Trick flow heads out performs the AFRs on street engines. Also the AFRs have 68 chambers which will lower my compression and the TFS have 64 which will keep me at 9.6.1. I'm running a hyd flat tappet cam 244/244 .512/.512. YEAH YEAH I KNOW a hydraulic roller is better but I don't have the money for a roller set up yet.
I just need to know which of these heads will give me the most bolt on HP.

Thanks for any help you guys can give me.

 

AFR 180's out perform TFS 195's or twisted wedge heads. They flow more air with a smaller port and would be a great bolt on for your 327 with big single pattern flat tappet because of their excellent exhaust port. Is it worth it to save two hundred $'s on a head with a bigger intake port that flows much less air? You know what they say....... the one place to spend money is HEADS.

 

But will the heads work well with a HSR intake? Also will the loss in compression lose hp? Do you have any gear suggestion? I do want a streetable car but not a total gas hog.

 

I love my TFS 23* heads. I got them for less than an AFR head, and by the flow numbers, they flow the same if not better than the AFR heads. I had them flowed before I installed them and they beat the AFR 180s and 195s at every point. ALSO, my friend who owns Total Engine Airflow said that TFS heads are a lot more consistant than AFR heads. Said he has seen a variation in AFR heads up to 20 cfm, ON THE LOW SIDE. Said he has only seen a handful of sets flow above. Funny that happens though b/c they are CNCd. Figured they would be very near their advertised...

Still a good head, but I am kinda partial to my TFS heads...

 

Chris89GTA,
Could you post your flow numbers on your TFS 23* heads? I would like to compare them to the advertised ones.

I know the TFS heads put up some great numbers in the mid-range lifts.

 

I to would be interested in seeing your flow numbers. I'm getting very close to ordering Trickflow heads. What head number did you go with? Were they CNC'd by Trickflow?

Thanks

 

I was stuck on AFR 195's but then after looking over some flow numbers I have decided on the 180's. They flow just the same as the 195's and have a smaller port. So the same flow with lots more velocity=torque. I think for a basic 350 a 170cc or 180cc head is plenty unless you have a huge cam or are planning on some kinda of a power adder.

 

if you can spend the money to have the competition port, the 180;s are a great choice. they flow a ton and have a great velocity. but i am not sure its worth all that extra cost. the trickflow 23* is a great head. flow is on par with the 195 AFR's only being slightly behind by advertised numbers. but as chris89GTA said, his flowed more than both. thats awesome. for the price you cant beat the trick flows.

except if you find some Pro topline 180's or 200's and port them up yourself, they will out flow both of the above mentioned. stock they are about the same flow as trickflow and afr. but i believe they are as cheap as trick flow if not cheaper

 

I always thought that spending money on a competition level porting job was stupid if the rest of your intake setup can not handle that much flow.

On the intake side, the comp AFR 180's flow 260 cfm at .500" lift. Most tpi intakes can't use this much flow. Also, that is also only 5 cfm more than the street package. High flow at lifts near .600" and above are not that useful for the typical street/strip engine.

There is a greater difference between the street AFR 195's and comp AFR 195's in advertised flow. Still I would go with the street package.

 

AFR's are a good head. They are more expensive, usually have a few months waiting list, can nickle and dime you to death and do not have as much room for porting gains.

My TFS 23*'s were ordered and less than 1 week later I had then. They are less expensive and have every accessory hole and passage drilled and taped. They also have a reputation of delivering better results after a home port.

The TFS twisted wedge are a big gamble. The first set they made had big problems. The second set had (supposedly) been fixed, but people were still having major problems. Summit bought the company and discontinued the line for SBC's and replaced them with the new Kenny D. line up, that I now own.

 

Thanks for your replies!

Oh an about the Pro Topline being a better flowing head thats
total BS at least from the results I found. I seen magazine articles using both 180 and 200 runners and flow numbers weren't any where near what Pro has advertised. Also I seen them dynoed on 350 and 383 engine with good size roller came an those engines barley broke 400hp. AFRs and TFSs can make that hp using a smaller flat tappet cam, hell I got a article showing the TFS making 436 hp on a 327 straight out of the box!

Well I've made my choice I just order the Trick flow heads because its $300 cheaper and I can take that extra money and buy a cam. Trick Flow can make 460hp right out of the box on a 383, all I have to do is upgrade the springs which will only cost me $50.

Thanks again guys!

 

I'd go AFR's all the way.....they have better low to mid lift numbers than the Trickflows. 20 more cfm from .200 to .400 lift.....awesome...

 

I will have to try and find those numbers. IIRC they were in the 255 range at .500 or so... after slight bowl work and a clean up of the runners they flowed 263 @ .500 and 265 @ .600 though. Mid lift on the untouched was about 2-3 over advertised and I picked up 5-10% everywhere w/ the cleanup...

 

I have the TFS 23 head on a 406hsr waiting for spring to swap. My machinist flowed them and they were dead on at 259@.600 and 193@.600. I found this link on a mustang site that does a good job of explaining velocity and port area. He even uses a chevy head as an example. Here it is http://www.mustangcentral.net/tech/port.html

 

Everyone needs to remember that the 327 engine is a higher revving engine that will need some larger heads. Personally, if I were building a 327 engine, I would purchase the AFR 190cc heads, that are cheaper, and flow a little more than the TFS 195 heads.

Keep in mind:
The intake is able to flow upper 200cc, so you might want to find a pretty wild cam and get the 200cc heads, high stall and tall gears. This will keep the acelleration and will be able to feed the 327.

The only thing that would have me worried with a harsher cam is the springs for the AFR heads. Purchase the upgrades if you get them, they are comp cam springs.

 

All in all the AFR's flow a lil bit more, but I would think that would equal out to five extra ponnies. You wont even notice it. But one thing that no one has said a thing about is you will need different springs for that cam. I bought a set of the Kenny D 23 tricks. They came with wimpy 1.25 inch springs, which I have now upgraded to 1.47 dual springs. I have read some posts and AFR will pull the same crap on you . The AFR heeads come with wimpy springs also . so by the time you order the correct springs for the AFR's your up to 1400 or so. I belive that you can find a set of the Kenny D 23* tricks with 1.25springs on the net for about 1000 or so. Then you get the right part number with the correct springs should bring you two 1300 or less. I have not installed the heads yet, but boy are they sexy! I would go with the 23* tricks IMHO. I paid like 980 new for mine. Then did some research on the boards here and came accrossed a fella named Artie that works for trickflow. He cut me a "good guy deal" on the proper springs for my cam, wich was 110 for proper springs, retainers, shims and cups. So for about 1100.00 I got some bad azz heads. The deals are out there so be and informed buyer. Do a search for "cheap trickflow" on the boards and you will find a place to get them cheap.

Good Luck

 

You will gain a lot more power down low and the mid range where it counts with the AFR heads b/c they flow well below .400 lift. Trickflow just can't compare down they....sure they almost equal out at .500 and .550 but any engine builder will tell you....Smaller port that flows just as well as a big port head, go small port b/c of the mid range benefits.

 

Low lift #'s are important but so is port area for the intended use of the engine,gearing, tranny and its ci. Ask yourself are you building a tow truck or a hot rod?

 

To compare apples to apples, you need to compare the AFR 195 Street heads to the Trick Flow 195 CNC heads. So...

Trick Flow advertised numbers

• .100 64.2 55.9
• .200 138.5 105.2
• .300 197.7 145.5
• .400 237.1 170.7
• .500 256.8 186.3
• .600 258.4 195.9

AFR advertised numbers

• .200 129 108
• .300 195 156
• .400 240 178
• .500 260 190
• .550 262 192
• .600 262 194

The AFR are a little better at low lifts but not by that much. With the AFR's most people buy the 74cc chambers and have them planed down. That's more added cost.

Chris89GTA's experiences are more than enough to sell me.

 

I bought my Trick Flows from Performance Cylinder Heads for $899. I found them in the Chevy Hi Performance magazine. I paid an extra $100 for exhaust port work. So shipped to my door was $1050.

 

 

Do they have an internet site?

 

I don't know.

 

I would order a set of AFR 180's from tenacious performance for $1275 shipped to my door.

 

How is that comparing apples to apples, wouldn't you need to compare the CNC version of both?

 

I believe it's a fair comparison. They have similar price and features. Earlier in the thread there was mention of AFR 180's, I did not want to confuse the 180's with 195's in comparing advertised flow.

 

Actually that is not apples to apples. AFR seems to be the only truthfull manufacturer of heads with their advertised #'s. Here are the results from www.chevyhiperformance.com AFR 180's intake port = .1-66, .2-137, .3-193, .4-230, .5-250 Trickflow 23's = .1-65, .2-133, .3-188, .4-226, .5-250. These tests were done on the same flowbench under the same conditions. The exhaust port was not worth comparing, nor was AFR's 195 cc head. Also, the low and mid lift #'s are not just important for "low end" or "midrange" power........ They are just as important to peak horseporer output, why? Because the valve is at that point of lift ( and every other except peak ) TWICE not once. The smaller port flowing more air at all points of lift will however make more peak torque. I suppose the trickflows are a allright head after a good clean up, but who wants to do that after spending $1145.95? (to get the same valve springs you get with the AFR's)

 

You mean this page here, Cylinder-Head Flow-Bench database ?

Okay guys, I'm back on the AFR bandwagon once again.

 

Guys thanks for all of your replies and your right AFR is the best choice without a doubt BUTTT!! Trick Flow also has great numbers compared to other heads flow numbers show they are the best only second to AFR. Well I got to thinking and looking at untouch trick flow heads on different engine combos they produce good power more than I'll ever need. I just bought a set complete with .520 lift spring shipped to my door for $1065 I got them only because I needed that extra $300 for other engine parts that my car really needs. I know my car isn't going to see any racing setting on 18 inch rims anyway. Plus I won't even get to drive it much because I got twin girl babies and a 5 year old.
With this combo I know I can get atleast 400hp out of the engine an that should make for a good street car.

 

I have a set of Trick Flow Twisted Wedgers on the Formula and CNC 23 degrees on the vette, I believe the are the best bang for the buck if you want to spend a little more and get a little more flow then get the AFR they are better heads but cost more. My CNC's where $1200 6 years ago and flow near the AFR numbers, the CNCing helps more on the exhaust side than the intake side.

 

I suggest that using dual springs on any heads will be better in the long run. These roller cams we use will break the single valve springs because of the ramp speed. I broke 2 springs and bent 2 valves because of the single spring that came with Trick Flow. Trick Flow repaired the damage to the head replaced the parts and gave me a new set of dual springs for free with little question asked.

So with that in mind, always order Trick Flow heads with dual springs.

 

Fevre, Sorry to be off topic here, but where did you get those chrome centercaps on your wheels? Thanks...

 

See this thread on Trick Flow results:
https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=282236

 

How much more power is 2-10 cfm going to get you, really? And remember we are talking about street cars. Not sponsered cars or cars that go to the track every weekend. Use the money to buy cruising gas or more parts.