Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Although I'm happy to see another Third Generation project from Car Craft... I was a little disappointed to read that their goal was to reach 13's in the 1/4.

I mean, there are people on here for crying out loud, that are running 13's with their 305 TBI's! A 13 second L98? Booorrriing!!!

Still though, it is nice to see a Third Generation grace the pages of their magazine... any magazine, for that matter!

Enjoy

Click Here

burnout88

I liked the article. It's nice to see a basic build up like this and I like that they started with a car that needed some basic trouble shooting work before they began the mod's. Very common on most the third gens out there.

I think the car probably represents a large number of the cars on this board and a lot of the basic goals most of the third gen.org guys are after.

I also liked the detailed parts list that even included the cost of the hood and hatch shocks. A very realistic expense on a third gen car.

305RSlc

well a 13 second L98 is an easy goal, that's for sure. Um, full exhuast and some stick rubber under the rear will get a 91-92 L98 in high 13 second territory, provided it is in good tune and not ragged out. You're right, boring, but at least it's a thidgen.

vortec77

Man!! I was looking for the new issue of car craft two days ago and they didnt have it. I was already annoyed i didnt get to see it yet now Im really annoyed that i also didnt get to see the article with a 3rd generation in it. Ill get it next week i guess.

Mkos1980

iTrader: (8)

Its nice them showing how to trouble shoot as well. Although I dont have any of those problems it was nice reading them for info.

firebirdjones

Ya I saw that, I subscribe to the mag, was surprised to see a write up on a tuned port car since the LS-1 is all the craze right now.
I am interested in the article, may have some tips for me since I am a non computerized kind of guy and my L98 does not feel like it would run 13's if it fell out of a tree. and no it's not ragged out, its a very well maintained all stock 50,000 mile car. Just does not feel that impressive to me. I plan on running it at the track shortly to get a baseline, probably run somewhere in the high 14's if I had to guess. It will be interesting to see what gives them the most gains and what turns out to be worthless. Looking forward to next months issue. Larry.

speed88

I think it is great to see a thirdgen in a car magazine regardless of what their goals are. Even though I have gone far beyond the basic "bolt on" mods I still fnd these articles interesting. Especially when they have to diagnose problems, you can never learn or re-learn enough about a computer controlled car.

13's are a pretty simple feat for a 91-92 L98 but it will be interesting to see what works for them and how they get there. "Bolt on" parts don't always give the same results to every car. I'm going to have to go out and find that magazine.

3.8TransAM

This will be their second thirdgen in recent memory(remember the red bird that was getting vortec tpi'ed?) for doing a tpi buildup.

Lets hope they actually stick with this one :-)

Same with GMHTP, Blue Thunder as going good until they puked it and its still gone. I want to see what they do there and what Car Craft ends up doing here.

later
Jeremy

brutalform

Yea, I believe they were calling it "fireturd". Funny how they never refer to a mustang like that. Now that you mention it, I completley forgot about both of those articles.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

I'm also glad to see them feature a third gen. I still see a lot of them on streets here in SoCal. So the market is still there. Allen

rgarcia63

I was surprised to see 2.5volts as acceptable for closed throttle, that's only a span of about 2volts.
Is that normal for a 91', my 88' has a span of 4v which is twice the resolution.

Dustin Mustangs

iTrader: (1)

That looks like a good article for 'The List'...


*start shameless plug*

If you don't know what 'The List' is click here !

*end shameless plug*

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

I was literally rolling on the floor laughing when I bought the magazine... only to read the following (below). I'm sure almost all of us here can relate with their experience;

"We made it about 15 miles before the car began to lose power. Uh oh. We shifted down and increased the revs but we knew we were in trouble and looked for a place to stall. We found a closed off-ramp and pulled to the side just as the car died".

"and it only took this long to make us start to hate the car..."

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

firebirdjones, you will never hear it on these boards, but most L98 cars are running mid 14s at best. so i doubt your car is below average. There are a few freaks out there, but overall i would say 80% of stock 350 cars are in the mid to high 14s. i am sure no one on here will agree with me but I am listing real world times here.

RS Chris

I have seen several completely stock 100,000+ mile l98s running low 14s.

I personnaly would like to see them go for a little more than just 13s.


Anyone else notice they said the car had a 4l60e tranny?

DON 88T/A

I agree with you 100% 1MeanZ...
Most of these cars are getting 15+ years old....while there are still good running examples of L98's out there,the bottom ends on these motors are starting to get a little tired,and just don't run what they used to. Mid to high 14's is still very respectful for vehicles that are 15+ years old,most of which have had there fair share of thrashing over the years.

DON 88T/A

I agree too that its time a mag sat down an put together a budget 350 TPI that ran solid 12's....N/A. Its not that hard and would really generate appeal for the thirdgen model.

DAVECS1

iTrader: (2)

Do not get me wrong, I like the down to earth nature of Car Craft, but when they start trouble shooting computer controlled cars such as a thirdgen it reminds me of cave men around a fire, they have a good idea of how it works but they still get burned.

firebirdjones

I know what you mean 1meanZ, I found my Iroc with 50,000 original miles on it a few months ago. It has done alot of sitting and I can tell from driving it,,,,it is a very tight driving car, no squeaks or rattles, drivetrain feels tight, not wore out by any means. Most people here base there times on cars that have 100,000 miles on them so that may not be totally accurate given they have some wear and tear on them. I just didn't think mine was that quick based on the butt dyno but the car feels like it is coming around, I found the timing retarded, tuned it up etc...new fuel filter blah blah blah, it sat for 5 years before I found it. My daily driver for years has been a little monza with a 406, so when I plant my butt in this Iroc it is a huge drop in performance from what I am used to. All of my other cars have 454's in them, so I am used to large torquey motors. This Iroc just runs and drives a little different than the older cars I have so it is hard for me to tell how quick it is. I plan on taking it to the track possibly this weekend, I suspect the car will run somewhere in the 14's as you mentioned, that is just a little slow from what I am used to. I am hoping this magazine article will give me some tips and ideas to tweak on it. Eventually I want to learn to burn my own chips as I know there is alot to be found there, I just wonder if the mag will tinker with that or just buy a store bought chip? Some of their tricks might keep me from wasting money on things that don't work. I imagine alot of the old school tricks I am used to would still apply on this computer controlled car too. Can't wait for next months issue, and thanks to all here that have helped me so far, it will be a learning curve for me. Larry.

JP86SS

iTrader: (1)

would be a great idea as long as it doesn't start with the new crate motor, SC, and $2K worth of other parts that most bugets don't support.

I haven't read it yet, is there any mention of how they tuned for this?
Or was it the standard "we bought "this" chip from "here" garbage.

firebirdjones

Well they haven't begun to tweak the car yet, they were too busy fixing drivability problems with it first It's high mileage and appears to be well used hopefully next article will have some quarter mile times and some tuning. Larry.

fixin87formula

I see a few of you guys say that it shouldn't be a problem to get a 91-92 L98 to run 13's. Whats the difference between these and say a 89-90 L98

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

The 1989 is a MAF car the other 3 are MAP cars. No problem getting a 1989 to run 12's even a fat GTA. Hehehe. Allen

Damon

Rgardia63- yeah, I caught that, too. TPS should be WELL below 1V at idle- I forget if the spec is .50 or .75, but it's way below 2.5V. Wide open it should be around 4.5, giving a spread of about 4 Volts, as you say. I'm assuming misprint or lack of careful note taking during the repair process.

I think it's pretty cool to have another 3rd gen project car. Let's face it, it's the last F-body you could open the hood and get to everything under there! GREAT cars for modifying. I've never gone more than a few years without owning one.

I like that they run into the "weird" problems I do when trying to get these things working right. Fubar'ed EGR valves, "flaky" ECMs, THAT's what it's really like. You can't just pick one of these cars up any more and expect to start modifying it from day one. You usually have lots of broken/rigged stuff from previous owners to fix first! I mean, come on, some of these cars are more than 20 years old.

firebirdjones

That is the exact reason why I went on the hunt for a very low mileage Iroc L98. I wanted something unmolested. I am not a big fan of cars that have been messed with especially when someone does a poor job. Mine has only had a battery change, new tires, and a few oil changes. It still even has the original radio and still works perfect. Now I can modify the way I want to and not have to fix silly things first. Although I don't plan on getting inside the motor I would like to see how quick it can go with simple (outside) bolt on stuff while still keeping the overall stock appearance of the car. I hope this article has some usefull mods I can use. I hope they do some bolt on stuff with quarter mile times so I can actually see what they are worth. It will be interesting to see how good they can make it run with so many miles on it. I wonder if they will have to do a transmission or get inside the motor for one reason or another once they start beating on it. Can't wait for the next issue, Larry.

Mkos1980

iTrader: (8)

Best I could ever do was a 14.2@98 with my bone stock 89 350 TPI. 60 foot was a 2.1

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

I received a response from Car Craft not too long ago in reference to this very question. The article was meant to see if people would be interested in such a build.... which is why they didn't make it a cover story at first.

From the responses they received, they see that the people are interested. Hopefully they'll try and take it a little further than the guys over at either Chevy High Performance (or Super Chevy, I don't recall at the moment, but I have the mag if anyone's interested).... who I believe just finished their Stealth Ram swap not too long ago on their own Third Generation Camaro project (and who are also shooting for naturally aspirated 12's, and not 13's).

bnoon

If I were those guys, I'd be putting in a 2500-2800 lock up converter and slap some better trailing arms on the rear to help get the power to the ground. Along with the headers and cat back that CC is almost sure to be planning, they should be solidly into the 13's very easily. Honestly, with goals of only 13's with an L98, I'm not sure how they plan to make it more than a few more articles at most. Unless they add goals such as corner carving to 1G, or seeing how easily they got 13's and go for 12's in the end or something...

firebirdjones

I am a little skepticle as to making an L-98 run 13's easily. Although I am a fairly new owner of an L-98, I am not sure it would run 13's with a few simple mods. I think it would take a little more elbow grease and some money. Of course thats just me talking, I am used to driving older muscle cars, I have not had the chance to run mine yet, so I don't know how far away from the 13's it really is, that would dictate how many bolt ons and how much money I would have to spend to get it there, especially if this thing barely runs 14's, then there would be alot of ground to cover. I won't know for sure until I run this thing and get a good baseline. Hopefully if the weather is good this Saturday I will hit the track with it and see just how far away it is from 13's. If it is close then minimal bolt ons might get me there, only a pass down the strip will have the answer. I hope this car the Mag is running is slower than mine, they will have to work harder at getting to the 13's which means more usefull info for me I hope this thing runs high 14's and they have to work for every tenth they get, that should make for some interesting reading. Larry.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

More of the former (elbow grease), than the latter. Porting out you're plenum, intake and heads.... and swapping the cam (something that Car Crafter's have been doing for years), along with a good exhaust, should put you in the 13's.

Although after all this time I still feel that a thirteen second car is pretty quick for the street, with today's technology, it's just flat out boring. I mean yeah, hey, 13 seconds, it's nothing to sneeze at. But when you have totally streetable, everyday, LT1's & LS1's running low 11's....

rgarcia63

The article doesn't specific the year, but it's a fourth Gen Z28 LT1.

The car is fully loaded, air/power brakes/power steering...etc., and still get 20mpg.

firebirdjones

Yep I agree with you Street Lethal, 13's make a respectable street car even today. In the late 80's I had a 12 second car I drove everyday, back then that was almost unheard of, now it's not a big deal. Although I do have a Chevelle that runs low 11's and I can drive it anywhere, it also has working A/C etc...and I have tried very hard to keep the stock appearance of the car, Even with all that, it is not that uncommon anymore, there are many new cars that can run that number. The chances of actually running into a car like that on the street though is slim, most hot rods you come accross at a red light are your typical 13 and 14 second cars, the really quick cars are usually driven sparingly anyway. If you drive a 13 second car, chances are you can hold your own most of the time.
I am guessing getting an L-98 car into the 13's will take alot of work as suggested by Street Lethal, Porting cylinder heads though is something I would pass on, atleast on this particular engine anyway, since the heads are an old design and there are far more better heads to buy that will flow better numbers right out of the box, a cheap alternative would be a set of vortec heads, although it would require a different intake base, that is the route I would probably take. I agree cam changes are pretty common anymore, not sure I would bother with a stock L-98 head though. Maybe the Mag will do a cam change with stock heads, that would be interesting. I would like to see how quick the car could go without these changes (without getting inside the motor) maybe some custom computer tuning, headers, cat back, free up the intake system like you mentioned, throttle body etc...rearend gears is always a good one, but I would also like to see what a looser converter and a set of sticky tires would do for a stock
L-98, maybe it would not run 13's, not sure, depends on how slow it was to begin with I guess, can't wait to run mine to find out just how slow it is I don't really want to get inside my motor unless something catastrophic happens, since the car only has 50,000 miles on it anyway. I need a better reason to open it up than just a quest for speed, I have other quicker cars I can jump in to satisfy my taste if I have the need, and spending money on those to keep them running is never ending it seems. I don't think we are ever done with this stuff are we? I can't leave anything alone for very long, Larry.

TPI-Formula350-

I havent seen the artical yet, but I agree they should be looking for better times then 13's. My L98 is ran a 13.21@104.6 with the bolton in my sig(havent gone into the motor). They could make it more interesting if they swapped in a LPE 219 cam and set of AFR heads. I'd like to see a build up artical of a L98 3rd gen running 11's. There are guys running 11's here with proven setups. That would be less boring, but like said before I to am happy to see any write up on a 3rd gen.

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

I just wanted to reply by saying that I was mad when I finished reading that article. A couple of reasons. They set the bar low, too low. These engines are capable of 11 seconds. They do nothing but complain about how the sensors are horrible and this fuel injection is soo much trouble for them to deal with. They are going to use some horrible chip and try to compensate for it by jacking with base timing and the AFPR. They will say how that "black box" is expensive to tune and act like it requires a masters degree to tune. I agree that any publicity is good publicity. but I forsee this as being a failed attempt without guidance of people who do this stuff. IE guys like us on this website!

firebirdjones

Hey TPI Formula 350, I see you have quite a few bolt ons in your signature. I am curious if you did these one at a time with drag strip results or if you did that all at once. I noticed your MPH is 104 which indicates the car is actually capable of easy 12 second times with a good 60 foot, it shows you are making decent horsepower for what you have.
Anyway, I am curious about the 1.6 rockers. I know there has been alot of talk on here yeh or neh about them. I am going to do valve seals on mine soon and am going to switch to a full roller rocker mainly to cut down on valve guide wear, not for performance reasons. But I was thinking of jumping to a 1.6 rocker for a bump in lift, I am curious if you saw any improvement with this using a stock untouched cylinder head.
Maybe with any luck the Magazine will try this mod since it is an easy bolt on, I would be interested to see if it yields them anything, especially on a high mileage car, probably run into valve float problems with the old valve springs on the car.
I agree I like the AFR heads myself, I use them on my Chevelle, but for my Iroc, if I was going to spend that much money, I would yank the entire motor and start from scratch with a 383 and AFR's, nice size roller, some sort of custom fuel injection setup etc...because once I have to get inside the motor I would get carried away so I might as well just do the whole thing. That is why I am shying away from a cam change in a basically stock motor otherwise. It will be interesting to see where this car leads them in their quest for better quarter mile times and how far they actually get into the motor to do it. I also agree with you, I am surprised to see a write up on a 3rd gen since the
LS-1's are all the craze now. Should be very cool. Larry.

bnoon

Heck yeah, down with 13's (starts to chant) down with 13's, down with...

My '99 Contour SE with a 3L v6 swap ran a 13.8 at 99-100 on 235/40/17" street radials with a 2.09 60'. 13's used to be impressive "back in the day" on old bias ply street tires, but on a modern day V8 muscle car? puuuuuulease.

formul8!!

Don't forget these guys are in California also.

It is very easy to make an L98 Formula run 13's. If these guys take the right steps and the motor doesn't puke like every other high mileage magazine project car, then this one may be interesting.

firebirdjones

I am waiting for Saturday, I will take my Iroc to the track and see how far away it is from 13's. Hopefully the weather will hold out,,right now they are talking rain, pretty typical around here. Mine is very near stock and low miles but I do not expect miracles from it. Other than a muffler only change (still all original pipes) K&N filters, and a cooler thermostat, it is bone stock. I know some headers with good Y-pipe and a mandrel bent intermidiate pipe would do wonders but that is not on the priority list right now as I have other cars with very expensive needs. I am hoping the magazine plays with other things first and see if it gains them anything at all. I would guess the exhaust manifolds will be the first thing to go though. I am glad they are not shooting for too much, speed cost money, how fast do you want to go. I mean I am sure they could go even quicker than 13's if you throw enough money and parts at it but if I wanted to take it that far I think I would just yank the 350 in favor of a 383 or 406 and make the job easier. I guess what I mean is if they start getting inside the motor for the quest of more speed then at that point I think I would just want to start with a larger motor, reason being is I just have other cars that require alot of my attention and I don't care to get that far into the Iroc other than simple outside bolt on stuff. Hopefully that will be enough to get the my car into the 13's and make it a somewhat respectable driver, soon I will find out how far away it is, then I will know how much work is required.
I have a question, not sure if the Magazine is going to do this or not but I want to start burning my own chips eventually rather than aftermarket. Has anyone had any experience with burning chips on a relatively stock L-98 and seen any improvements? If so I am wondering how much improvement? Are we talking 2-3 tenths with chip mods on a stock L-98? Just curious how much GM left on the table. Larry.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

To be honest, they don't even need the extra cubic inches. What's funny though, is that in this very issue (cover story), they build a 500HP 350 with a stock bottom end (the heads they used are unreal).

If DF really wanted to, he could drop that creation into this Third Generation project... and get it to run with the Tuned Port Injection. Tuning it to pass emission's shouldn't be too difficult (they could always hire JPrevost, then call it a day).

Now that would be an interesting build. But would they do it? Probably not. Why? Who the heck knows. Maybe if we all started to e-mail them at once, they'd soon get the message...

firebirdjones

I realize quicker times can be had with a 350, lord knows I have done that in the past, I just meant if I were to have bigger goals than the Magazine does, I would just install a bigger motor from the get-go and make my job easier to abtain.
I seem to remember an article from way back where a fellow bought a white Formula 350 new (L-98) and started modifying it little by little and had that thing going pretty quick and he always bragged about still having a stock short block, although everything else under the sun has been replaced. I remember that being a pretty good article with good info, wish I could find that mag, I know it's here somewhere. I believe the guy still owns and races the car today. Maybe this new project will turn into something like that with any luck. One can only hope I guess. Larry.

5.7 iroc-z28

yea i was glad to see that,
i was thinking thats a lot of car for 1500$

why cant i find good deals like that

DAVECS1

iTrader: (2)

I hope they do some original things (Vortec Holley Stealth Ram would be cool). I would not be opposed to them pulling the engine. The car is 13-14 years old. These were designed as price point cars. If milage has not got to the engine then I imagine age has affected some of the seals. There may be some rare cases were this is not the case, but this car is not one of those cases. They bought it for 1500 dollars, off of someone who had no idea why it would not run right. I think it would be neat though if they stuck with some of the parts that differentiate a thirdgen from other cars on the road, Like TPI or a dirivative. I would like to see them keep with the roller block and maybe show cheap ways to create a killer valve train, that cooperates with multiport fuel injection. The possibilities are endless. I think the defining factor will be if they can "NERD UP" and become familiar with the electronics.

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

Setting the goal low at 13's means that the magazine is verifying that they think these cars are slow, which in fact they are not. Just yanking a 350 for a 383 or 400 means they are alsoi saying that without a bigger engine these cars on this FI setup are slow. Either is a bad move for them to make.

They have to stay emisions legal remember? The HSR is out of the picture. I think that they eluded to a Super Ram set up, or at most a mini ram. Someone should e-mail this thread to them. Any one agree out there?

DAVECS1

iTrader: (2)

Well we will never know if the Vortec Holley stealth Ram is not emmisions compliant. It was supposedly suppose to be out already, but as for right now it is like a mythical beast everyone has heard of it but no one has seen it. HELLO HOLLEY! were is our speed parts.

firebirdjones

Hello Tibo, I agree somewhat with what you are saying. I guess when you say these cars are fast I am not sure if you mean bone stock or heavily modified. I personally feel if the car is a stocker then yes they are a little on the slow side, but I know they can be modified to be pretty quick. When these cars were new they ran okay but most people compare cars anymore with new stuff nowadays and if you do that then by comparison, yes these cars are lacking, and on the slow side, if they are stock. Just depends on how you want to look at it I guess.
I am not sure if you guys understood what I meant by dropping in a 383/406. I was referring to myself in particular. I have nothing against the 350 at all. I meant that if for some reason I had to get inside the motor for the quest for speed or for some unforseen problem where I had to mess with the short block, I would probably just stab in a 383/406 and start over as far as the short block in concerned. Would be a nice boost in power and I am a fan of larger cubic inch motors anyway. But as far as my car goes right now, with 50,000 miles I think the 350 will be in there for a long time, I have no interest in opening it up unless something breaks of course.
I don't really think the mag will go that route, even if they have engine trouble I think they will stick to the 350 for cost and emissions reasons, or just park the thing and forget about it I am hoping they will see how fast it will go with the original TPI setup before going to another setup as mentioned above, mainly because I plan on keeping my intake setup, not interested in the aftermarket intake systems at this time.
Man we can go on about this forever before next months issue comes out all we can really do is wait and see. I just hope I can get some usefull tips out of it. Larry.

DAVECS1

iTrader: (2)

Well I am also a fan of TPI, but I have found through experience that TPI (even HEAVILY modified) can be a limiting factor for a 350. There are only a couple of cost effective ways to get horse power.

Displacement
High RPMS
Nitrous
Forced Induction

If you stay with a 350 that rules out displacement. If you stay with TPI that rules out high RPMS. That leaves you with the last two items. I have ported SLP runners until they were almost un able to bolt up. I have matched the plenum to the SLP runners and I am using a heavily ported SDPC base. The highest I have been able to make power is approximately 5800 rpms. You can make good power at 5800 RPMS with a 350, but from what I know and have done it takes thermal coatings, ported heads with a good valve train, and oil windage considerations. So unless I am missing something all of those things will mean cracking the engine.

So that leaves the last two options if you want to keep a realitively stock long block. I guess that would be OK, but even the last two options will be severly limited by that high milage engine and chances are if they cant handle tuning the computer when it is stock,,, they will definetly grenade the motor when on nitrous or forced induction and then declare there is no way to make a thirdgen fast.

formula350sd

iTrader: (2)

Vortec stealth ram is out I have one.

And I really have a hard time believeing all of you that say you have low 14 stock l98s I cant even get my rebuilt 350 5 speed vortec to cut faster than a 14.45 at 97.9

vortec77

Maybe you need some more tuning there Formula350sd. I heard of a few guys on this board that say they went from 14's to 13's just by adding a vortec base and stock vortec heads. One guy on here ran a 13.4 I believe on a non roller 350 with an lt4 hot cam and i think 1.5 stock rocker arms and a stock tpi. Not bad for street. What kind of set up do you have Formula?

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

You gotta bang those gears bro!

formula350sd

iTrader: (2)

I have to get out my time sheets and stuff but my 60 fts were a mess, and the guy I got the car from put in a stock lt4 cam with 1.5 rockers which works out to be smaller than an l98 cam.