I have an 89 formula 350... i had it stroked to a 383 w trw pistons. z gap rings. all forged and light weight bottom end. Afr 190 heads (2.02, 1.6). ZZ-9 cam. 1.6 rr. tpis bigmouth base manifold ported fully, slp siamesed runners ported and upper plenum also ported. BBk 58mm throttle Body. holley afpr, holley 255 lph pump. I got a probuilt 700r4 (probuilt automatics) with a vigilante 2800 stall nitrous ready. I took it to ccstuning.com shop and had them burn a chip for it. he ran it on the dyno and tuned. but he never even touched the timing. We set it to base timing before i got to the shop.... and i think that is where he left it. Well the car runs as if it were brand new but it only layed down 234 rwhp and 268lbs tq. what is up with that?? air/ fuel is 12.6 to 12.4 through the rpm band. Oh and my 91 eclipse gst with a big 16g, 255lph pump and 3in exhaust and south florida perf. header walked all over it. I have about 1k invested in the eclipse and over 7k just in this motor for the bird. What is wrong??????

 

There's either a large mechanical problem or his "Chip burning" was horrible! Well, judging by the 12.6 - 12.4 AFR, it was horrible. 13:1 is where you want to be, a little high, and a little low is okay IN SPOTS, but consistantly high tells me that the guy didn't know what he was doing. Also, no timing adjustments? I'd love to know how he could justify that. Vac leaks anyplace? Crossed plug wires maybe? TPS not showing WOT at WOT?? There's got to be something that this guy should have caught. What does the exhaust look like?

Don't blame the car - blame the tuner.

 

Hand on a second, are you sure he didn't change the timing in the chip? you don't have to move the dissy to change timing. There is nothing wrong with 12.4 to 12.6, some motors would puke a piston at 13/1, every motor is different. Thats why you use a dyno to find out what AFR makes max power. Plus being a half a point off won't kill 100 hp.

Power does seem low, was he using a mustang dyno? These read lower than the usual inertia dyno's, but even then it's still low. Most mustang dyno's read about 10% lower from what I've read. Did the tuner say why it wasn't making any power? He should have been able to at least point you in the right direction. If the timing and fuel was in the ball park, that leaves you with something mechanical. What kind of exhaust are your running? What did the graph look like, where were your peaks? Did it look smooth?

 

Whats the specs on that cam? Also what exhaust are you using?

 

Lean is mean

 

I have edelbrock 1 5/8 headers that run into 2.5 in on each side then y to 3 back and out the muffler 2.5 on each pipe. I dont think that is the problem though cuz it is the same exhaust i used on my 350 and that motor would stick side by side with an ls1 till around 90 or so...and i know this motor wont. All he said after the tune was it did "ok" He was using a mustang dyno and i checked the other runs ppl had... and my car didnt even make what a stock 2001 gt mustang makes... the cam is around 530 something with the 1.6 rr....he fixed all the mechanical problems vac leaks fueling and so on. I had that 255 put in when i got there and he checked all the lines and replaced my plugs with ngk for the afr heads and put msd wires. He said i had the short plugs in before and that was hurting the burn off in the cylinders. it picked up 40hp from that...i saw the dyno sheet from that....I will post the dyno sheets when i get off....

 

It should put out more then that on a stock chip. On mine with JUST basically a change to injectors it went 276/391 with a 13.1 AFR. Basically same setup too. Now that we have a real chip in there I'm hoping for better.

 

Sounds like he was chasing an ignition problem with the new plugs and wires. That might point to your problem.

Lean is only mean when it makes max power

 

He replaced the ignition wires because they burned up on the headers and while he was there he noticed the plugs in the car were the wrong ones so he replaced them too...I emailed him today about the problem and he called me but i missed it so now we playing phone tag i guess....here is the dyno graphs....oh and the air/fuel averaged 12.3 to 12.6 ....AND IT WAS A MUSTANG DYNO

 

blue test hp
green test ft lbs
light blue base hp
red base ft lbs


oh and i would just take it back but i drove 248 miles to get it tuned...so I am not really looking forward to another 4hour drive....besides if he didnt get it right the first time how can i expect it right the second u know...

 

meet the killer eclipse....

 

You should invest in a scanner. Maybe the computer is pulling out alot of timing, that will kill the Hp. The only way to really tell what the problem might be is to know what the engine is doing, via a scanner.

And, I agree that 12.4 is on the rich side as long as you are running a compression ratio of around 10 to 10.5:1.

 

Yeah compression is right at 10 to 1. I am not sure i know what a scanner is....Oh and just last night my service engine light came on. I checked the code and it was code 13....that is o2 right?? He replaced my o2 with a high heat o2 sensor($150 damn killing me) So i guess that sensor aint working right either.

 

He didn't even run it past 4500 on the "tuned" runs. Whats up with that? Something is deffinetely screwy. You may want to check your prom and see if he actually did any tuning on it. If it still has the silver tag on the chip he didn't do anything.

 

okay i will check it....I think he had to do something though cuz before it ran like crap and the air/fuel after the fuelpump install was 7 to 1. anyway i will check it. Does anybody have any ideas as to where i should go from here?? Like i said it runs smooth but i got that performance from my stock motor you know...

 

[B]

I agree with Doc, get a scanner, and you can see everthing that is going on. BTW, if you are that rich, with a weak SA, there is a bit of power not being realized right there. I would aim for an AFR of 13.0, with 12.8 being as rich as I would want to be. Then try to get the engine to tolerate some SA in the upper RPMs, and Kpas. You should look into doing your own proms. I believe the AFR heads will tolerate some decent SA.

 

Look at that chart - it's all over the place! I seriously doubt he did anything other than maybe a little timing and barely touched fuel adjustment. The "Tuned Test" torque line drops 30 or 40 ft/lbs in 400 RPM, and then climbs again? A little sudden "Shakiness" might be okay in the upper part if there's valve float, but that thing falls on it's face QUICKLY, and then starts making more power??? Get that guy the hell away from a computer, *** knows how many cars he's F'ing up!

I was just thinking, at 12.4-12.6, maybe this guy only works with R-1-C-E-R-S and turbo cars, and has no clue how to work with a 165 or 730? Maybe he thinks that the best A/F, since it would work well in a turbo application?

My final thought - your money was wasted - get into prom burning yourself, and leave you little Eclipse for your girlfriend Seriously, it sounds like the only chance you have to get it right if you don't have anyone capable of tuning in your area.

 

well actually the jump and fall in the beginning is due to the fact that the transmission was shifting to 3rd so he could tune wot. But it does drop off pretty quick...I am gonna check harmonic balancer and if it is on i check the timing. Maybe the tranny is not letting power to ground...well maybe not cuz it did lay rubber very easy. there is a dyno around here like 20 miles away with an air/fuel gauge. maybe i just set timing there myself.....i talked to the guy and he said check balancer / timing / and trans/ and consider a holley stealth ram intake....mine drops off way to early...and he said my cam should pull way into 6000rpm

 

[B]

HIT PAUSE. Dont buy a new intake. Look at the obvious stuff, you mentioned. I have to ask, who built the engine? Are the pistons down in the bores too far? Ive seen this happen, and the compression is gone! Was the cam degreed in, or just installed "straight up"? You really got to look at everything. Take my advice I sent you in the PM, and seriously look at a scantool. Maybe you can borrow one instead. Bottom line, if everything checks out, being too rich, with a weak SA, and you will be down on some power!

 

Also, dont get too impatient. You have a nice combo there, with some $$$ spent. Now you have to take the time to tune it correctly.

 

YES, do not get impatient (yea, listen to me). My biggest problem after installing my 395 was elimenating all vacuum leaks. The engine will do several screwy things if you have a vacuum leak.

About scanners: go over to the DIY board here on thirdgen, I think that board has scanner info. Personally, I have an Auto Xray 240. This is a hand held device that plugs into the diagnostic port. It will read in a second about 50 or so engine parameters.
All of the really important stuff is there, like engine RPM, injector pulse width, MAF flow, TPS voltage, O2 voltage, BLM, INT, coolant temp., timing, retard timing, etc. As you can see, this is very usefull knowlegde.

 

Randy's performance shop did the motor..and there was a guy who had his motor just like mine except it was carb and more agressive cam and it did 440hp and 402ft lbs on the engine dyno. the cam in mine is straight up is that bad??

 

Its not bad if you trust what the cam card says. Degreeing the cam ensures you that the valve timing events are what they say they are. Dont worry about that now though. Only if you have to check it down the road, if everything else checks out ok. alot of people install them "straight up".

 

BTW, was the Eclipse ever raced at the strip? If so how did it run?

 

oh okay....The eclipse was never run at the track but i have raced a few 01 gt's mustakes and whooped up on them. I dont have a time for the eclipse but if i had to bet money on it...it is in the high 13's... Even from a dead stop that eclipse will come up on my bird so fast...and all you hear is that turbo spooling then the bov...and that completly untuned....I have the safc2 hooked up but i am waiting for my injectors so i can install them and hook up my buddies wideband and set the fuel curves....

 

I went this weekend to check the timing and my timing light was broke so now i have to wait till fri when i get paid to get a new timing light....where should the timing be set at to start....??Anyone with similar setup have a good idea where would be good???

 

Set the base timing to 6* BTDC with the ESC disconnected.