Hi guys, I have been working with the low mileage, forged internals 2 bolt 327 that my Camaro came with for a while, but I think I will be sticking it in my 83 Firebird (85-90 TA clone) now that it has been painted and I'm already tired of the 305.
New combo: 2nd Gen camaro, Holley Stealth Ram, 350 4bolt, 30 over w/ cast flat tops, looking at using Dart Iron Eagle 180cc heads, with whatever chamber size gets me around 9.5:1 (probably the 64cc chambers).
I am going to use a roller cam w/ retrofit roller lifters. No more hydraulic flat tappet cams for me. I am going to start out with 1 5/8" long tubes because I already have them, but I will go to 1 3/4" soon.
3.73 gears, T5 world class trans.
I burn my own chips and datalog so I can get the EFI dialed in happy happy.
Pick a cam! A car like this is obviously not my daily driver. However, I got annoyed driving my 327 making peak hp at 6200-6500 and needing to be revved a ton to get anything out of it. I want this thing to still make top end power, but have a lot of mid range and a very acceptable amount of low end. It's a stick so having to worry about stock torque converter stall speed and all that crap is not a problem. I'd like to use 1.5 rockers, so I need to get enough lift without having to swap to 1.6s. I don't like the valve train geometry getting screwed up, which happens a lot using 1.6s or higher on SBC heads (pushrod holes having to be ground out is a no no, I don't want to screw with new heads). The car will be taken to the track occasionally, but I want a cam that will be a great street performer. I cruise at very low highway rpms due to my 0.6 overdrive in the T5. 65-70 mph is about 1800 rpms. My current lopey hydraulic cam was perfectly happy lugging along at those low rpms (55 mph is about 1500-1600 rpms) so I don't think any reasonable roller cam will have any difficulty at low R's even if it's pretty aggressive.
Thanks!
New combo: 2nd Gen camaro, Holley Stealth Ram, 350 4bolt, 30 over w/ cast flat tops, looking at using Dart Iron Eagle 180cc heads, with whatever chamber size gets me around 9.5:1 (probably the 64cc chambers).
I am going to use a roller cam w/ retrofit roller lifters. No more hydraulic flat tappet cams for me. I am going to start out with 1 5/8" long tubes because I already have them, but I will go to 1 3/4" soon.
3.73 gears, T5 world class trans.
I burn my own chips and datalog so I can get the EFI dialed in happy happy.
Pick a cam! A car like this is obviously not my daily driver. However, I got annoyed driving my 327 making peak hp at 6200-6500 and needing to be revved a ton to get anything out of it. I want this thing to still make top end power, but have a lot of mid range and a very acceptable amount of low end. It's a stick so having to worry about stock torque converter stall speed and all that crap is not a problem. I'd like to use 1.5 rockers, so I need to get enough lift without having to swap to 1.6s. I don't like the valve train geometry getting screwed up, which happens a lot using 1.6s or higher on SBC heads (pushrod holes having to be ground out is a no no, I don't want to screw with new heads). The car will be taken to the track occasionally, but I want a cam that will be a great street performer. I cruise at very low highway rpms due to my 0.6 overdrive in the T5. 65-70 mph is about 1800 rpms. My current lopey hydraulic cam was perfectly happy lugging along at those low rpms (55 mph is about 1500-1600 rpms) so I don't think any reasonable roller cam will have any difficulty at low R's even if it's pretty aggressive.
Thanks!
Senior Member
Pick a Hyd roller with intake and exhaust duration at .050 between 220 and 230 with a 112 lobe seperation and lift around .520 to .570 ans you will be happy. My 219 cam and my ZZ-409 cam both have numbers between what i mentioned and they will pull fine at 1600 RPM to 6000 RPM.
If you have one of the newer StealthRams that can seal on a 1206 port,,, and you're not going to pocket port those 180 Iron Eagles (running the heads right out of the box),, and set on iron heads, go with the 215s. If you'll consider aluminum,, even if the intake is an older version and all you can go is 1205,, save up the extra $200 and change for a set of 195 Canfields. I used to own a speed shop and delt with a lot of people,,, and I'll just about guarantee that you'll be pulling those 180s off to get them ported and have more money and time invested in them than the Canfields and they still might not perform as well.
The 215s will really wake up with higher lifts and if you're not going to be driving it much, and running them out of the box,,, get Comp to grind you the 3192 lobe for the intake and their 3194 lobe on the exhaust on a 111 degree spread with 3-degrees advancement in the cam. That'll give you 275/281 - 224/230 - .567/.584 (1.5 rockers) - 108IC/114EC. The Canfields can get by with a single pattern using the 3192 lobe and tightening the lobe spread to 109 degrees and 2 degrees advancement. With a free flowing true dual exhaust the Canfileds combo would peak around 5800 rpm and shift around 6200 rpm with the stick,, the 215 combo would peak about the same rpm, be a little less less responsive, and be about .15 seconds off the Canfields, but would be considerably quicker than the 180s. You'll need to get valve springs to work with that lift,, or if you get the heads with .550 lift springs,,, go with the new XFI lobe 3015 on the intake which is a similar 224 lobe with .537 lift and the XFI lobe 3016 on the exhaust for the 215s,, which is a similar 230 cam with .543 lift. There will less power difference in the Canfileds by going with the slightly lower lift cam than you'll see with the lesser lift on the 215s.
The 215s will really wake up with higher lifts and if you're not going to be driving it much, and running them out of the box,,, get Comp to grind you the 3192 lobe for the intake and their 3194 lobe on the exhaust on a 111 degree spread with 3-degrees advancement in the cam. That'll give you 275/281 - 224/230 - .567/.584 (1.5 rockers) - 108IC/114EC. The Canfields can get by with a single pattern using the 3192 lobe and tightening the lobe spread to 109 degrees and 2 degrees advancement. With a free flowing true dual exhaust the Canfileds combo would peak around 5800 rpm and shift around 6200 rpm with the stick,, the 215 combo would peak about the same rpm, be a little less less responsive, and be about .15 seconds off the Canfields, but would be considerably quicker than the 180s. You'll need to get valve springs to work with that lift,, or if you get the heads with .550 lift springs,,, go with the new XFI lobe 3015 on the intake which is a similar 224 lobe with .537 lift and the XFI lobe 3016 on the exhaust for the 215s,, which is a similar 230 cam with .543 lift. There will less power difference in the Canfileds by going with the slightly lower lift cam than you'll see with the lesser lift on the 215s.
Member
not to hijack, but ive got a set of dart iron eagle platinum series heads im trying to sell....theyre 200cc runners, 64cc chambers and should be perfect for what youre looking for....i had them on my stealthrammed 350 and made 415 hp with a .527/.537 cam. theyve got lunati springs good to .600 lift and only have about 3k miles on em, i just need bigger chambers so im trying to sell em. Looking for $800 shipped. these were $1000+ shipping new
Monte, thanks but I can get new platinum Iron Eagles on ebay for $729 plus $80 shipping in any chamber and runner I want. BadSS, I want this car to be well mannered a lot more than I need to push the 350 to insane HP limits. I also want good gas mileage cruising on the highway with it. AND it has to be happy with the EFI and idle well in traffic. I do indeed have the older stealth ram with the smaller ports.
You really think 180s will be too small? For a street car? I hate driving the car with the dirty idling hydraulic cam (it has enough overlap that it the narrow band O2 is not happy with it). I really don't want to overcam it and hate driving it.
You really think 180s will be too small? For a street car? I hate driving the car with the dirty idling hydraulic cam (it has enough overlap that it the narrow band O2 is not happy with it). I really don't want to overcam it and hate driving it.
Whether a head is too big has more to do with velocity than port volume. You can have a 242cc volume port that'll have more velocity at all lift points than a small volume head,, be more responsive and make a ton more power.
The 195/200cc Canfields are $1030 at Competion Products for cams up to .570 lift,, and would not be "too big"
Competition Products-Canfield, 200 Assemblies, Chev SB Street/Track, Angle, Pair
They sell a china made straight plug 2.02/1.60 aluminum head for $850 with hydralic flat tappet springs that I haven't seen personally, but a trusted friend thought they were great for the money,,, saying that they did need to be cleaned up a bit though. If you want to bolt them on,,, the Canfields are hard to beat for the money.
If you want a clean idle,, you don't have to go roller. You should be able to tune the same cam you have in the 327 in a 350 to be clean,,, I'm running almost the same cam in a 350 and it is smooth at 750rpm. Anything without cats is going to give off more of an "exhaust" smell,, so I don't know how "clean" of an idle you're looking for. If you're going bang for the buck,,, you would be better off spending money on a set of Canfields and a custom X-treme grind flat tappet cam compared to cheap heads and a retro hydraulic set up.
The 195/200cc Canfields are $1030 at Competion Products for cams up to .570 lift,, and would not be "too big"
Competition Products-Canfield, 200 Assemblies, Chev SB Street/Track, Angle, Pair
They sell a china made straight plug 2.02/1.60 aluminum head for $850 with hydralic flat tappet springs that I haven't seen personally, but a trusted friend thought they were great for the money,,, saying that they did need to be cleaned up a bit though. If you want to bolt them on,,, the Canfields are hard to beat for the money.
If you want a clean idle,, you don't have to go roller. You should be able to tune the same cam you have in the 327 in a 350 to be clean,,, I'm running almost the same cam in a 350 and it is smooth at 750rpm. Anything without cats is going to give off more of an "exhaust" smell,, so I don't know how "clean" of an idle you're looking for. If you're going bang for the buck,,, you would be better off spending money on a set of Canfields and a custom X-treme grind flat tappet cam compared to cheap heads and a retro hydraulic set up.
Member
wow didnt know they could be had for that...id do 730 shipped then
BadSS, the idle quality is perfect, it will idle steady all day long in traffic, I drive the car across the GW bridge in NY in traffic jams sometimes. However it smells strong, which annoys me. I have had a lot of old cars with aftermarket cams and uncatalyzed exhausts. This is stronger than acceptable, it's just the fact that the flat tappet cam can't ramp up fast enough and has too much duration and overlap given the lift it affords. A roller will clean this up. I'm not doing any more flat tappet cams.
The main advantage is the area under the curve as the tappet increase past the .050 tappet lift (or .075 valve lift). Depending on the lobe spread and how aggressive the exhaust lobe closing and intake opening is,,,, you can add more duration to the overlap period with a hydraulic roller. For instance, if you're like most folks and consider a cam based on the seeming industry standard of .050 tappet lift, the XE "224" flat-tappet has
268 @.006, 224 @.050, 137 @0.200 with .477 lift (1.5 ratio)
The standard "224" hydraulic roller gives you:
276 @.006, 224 @.050, 145 @0.200 with .503 lift (1.5 ratio)
You'll have a worse idle with the roller than the flat-tappet.
To get the idle quality of the hydraulic roller equal to the flat tappet,,, you'll have to drop down to the 3313 or 3306 lobe which are (respectively) - since Comp doesn't have a "222" lobe:
269 @.006, 218 @.050, 139 @0.200, and .495 lift
269 @.006, 220 @.050, 138 @0.200, and .474 lift
So where is the advantage now? Mainly in frictional differences which at the power level and RPM you're wanting to run has more to do with how long the cam lasts.
However,, you could get a sligtly better idle and make similar or better power depending on the cylinder head's increase in higher lift flow (not the 180 Iron Eagles for sure) compared to the 268/224 flat-tappet with the 3190 HR lobe:
265 @.006, 214 @.050, 141 @0.200, and .530 lift
That's a lot of money for what you're going to get. Still,, there is not going to be much idle difference between the best for your application listed above compared to the 268/224/137 flat-tappet,,, especially if you cut it on a 112 spread.
That DEH cam you're running is slow,,, 275/219/125 with .462 lift,, slow split on the exhaust 283/229/137 with .482 lift and cut on a 110 spread. It's not a bad cam,, there's just better,, much better when it comes to idle quality and "loading up" vs power production. For example the 5442 XE flat tappet lobe with 262/218/130 and .462 lift is 13 degrees shorter at .006 (.009 valve lift) and while it might not pull as high at the top compared to the DEH you have,, but the difference is going to be toward your shift RPM which would be almost negligent (since you have more area under the cam now). The 262/218 compared to what you have now is night and day on idle quality and would make a little better power curve. Comparing you DEH 219/229 cam to a XE grind,,, you could run a 270/226 and 274/230 XE flat-tappet with 112* seperation and be able to tune it in better.
Now,,, I'm not saying there are not HUGE benefits to a hydraulic roller in the right application - there is,,, 60 - 80 horses sometimes in the extreme power builds - but not with what it looks like you're trying to do.
It's your money,,, but for what you want and bang for the buck,,, I'd go Canfields with a flat-tappet XE 5443 and 1.6 rockers (Canfields clear 1.6s) 268/224/137 - .509 on the intake and exhuast (since you're running a true dual set up) on a 112 spread. Actually a 110 spread shouldn't be a problem,, or even the 270/226 lobe on a 112, but I'd rather err on the safe side since idle quality seems to be your #1 concern. That'll run circles around the 180 Iron Eagles and any hydraulic roller you would be happy with on how lean you can get the idle.
If you have your mind dead set on the rolller,,, I'm not trying to talk you out of it,,,, either of the three lobes I listed above should be fine for what you want.
Good luck man,, I use to own a speed shop and I know how hard it is for folks to decide on a a combination with so many quick to give advise and all the stuff you read that can be misleading. Sounds like you've been around the block a time or two and this stuff is not new to you,,, so I hope I helped somehow.
268 @.006, 224 @.050, 137 @0.200 with .477 lift (1.5 ratio)
The standard "224" hydraulic roller gives you:
276 @.006, 224 @.050, 145 @0.200 with .503 lift (1.5 ratio)
You'll have a worse idle with the roller than the flat-tappet.
To get the idle quality of the hydraulic roller equal to the flat tappet,,, you'll have to drop down to the 3313 or 3306 lobe which are (respectively) - since Comp doesn't have a "222" lobe:
269 @.006, 218 @.050, 139 @0.200, and .495 lift
269 @.006, 220 @.050, 138 @0.200, and .474 lift
So where is the advantage now? Mainly in frictional differences which at the power level and RPM you're wanting to run has more to do with how long the cam lasts.
However,, you could get a sligtly better idle and make similar or better power depending on the cylinder head's increase in higher lift flow (not the 180 Iron Eagles for sure) compared to the 268/224 flat-tappet with the 3190 HR lobe:
265 @.006, 214 @.050, 141 @0.200, and .530 lift
That's a lot of money for what you're going to get. Still,, there is not going to be much idle difference between the best for your application listed above compared to the 268/224/137 flat-tappet,,, especially if you cut it on a 112 spread.
That DEH cam you're running is slow,,, 275/219/125 with .462 lift,, slow split on the exhaust 283/229/137 with .482 lift and cut on a 110 spread. It's not a bad cam,, there's just better,, much better when it comes to idle quality and "loading up" vs power production. For example the 5442 XE flat tappet lobe with 262/218/130 and .462 lift is 13 degrees shorter at .006 (.009 valve lift) and while it might not pull as high at the top compared to the DEH you have,, but the difference is going to be toward your shift RPM which would be almost negligent (since you have more area under the cam now). The 262/218 compared to what you have now is night and day on idle quality and would make a little better power curve. Comparing you DEH 219/229 cam to a XE grind,,, you could run a 270/226 and 274/230 XE flat-tappet with 112* seperation and be able to tune it in better.
Now,,, I'm not saying there are not HUGE benefits to a hydraulic roller in the right application - there is,,, 60 - 80 horses sometimes in the extreme power builds - but not with what it looks like you're trying to do.
It's your money,,, but for what you want and bang for the buck,,, I'd go Canfields with a flat-tappet XE 5443 and 1.6 rockers (Canfields clear 1.6s) 268/224/137 - .509 on the intake and exhuast (since you're running a true dual set up) on a 112 spread. Actually a 110 spread shouldn't be a problem,, or even the 270/226 lobe on a 112, but I'd rather err on the safe side since idle quality seems to be your #1 concern. That'll run circles around the 180 Iron Eagles and any hydraulic roller you would be happy with on how lean you can get the idle.
If you have your mind dead set on the rolller,,, I'm not trying to talk you out of it,,,, either of the three lobes I listed above should be fine for what you want.
Good luck man,, I use to own a speed shop and I know how hard it is for folks to decide on a a combination with so many quick to give advise and all the stuff you read that can be misleading. Sounds like you've been around the block a time or two and this stuff is not new to you,,, so I hope I helped somehow.
Senior Member
I have a 383 with 9.6 comp with the HSR running AFR 180cc heads. I am looking into trading up to AFR 195cc for it and a little bit bigger cam from mine right now. I think anywhere between 224-230 on the intake will be fine. I have plenty of torque through my stock stall and 1990 truck.
some 224/230 grind or near that should be a great cam for that car. Comps 503 grind is nice
Combination motorsports makes cams that fit LT1's but also can be used in the gen I's. i like there 227/233 grinds for a 355. should peak near 6000rpms
Combination motorsports makes cams that fit LT1's but also can be used in the gen I's. i like there 227/233 grinds for a 355. should peak near 6000rpms