what should be the first mod i should make
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Joined: Dec 2000
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From: houston,tx.usa
what should be the first mod i should make
i have a 85 305 tpi stock camaro the only thing that i have done to it was a tb bypass and borla exhaust system with 3" pipes and i wanted to know out of expirence which is the best mod to make first to start me out with and i don't have a lot of money so it ca'nt be a supercharger or an engin swap o ya the engin has 107k mlles on it
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From: Mesa, AZ
Why don't you check out the free mods section in the tech articles. There is some good stuff in there. Before you do anything major to your car its always best to just do a tune up. New cap and rotor, plugs, 8MM wires, filters, etc. You know, just the basics, you might be suprised on how much that would help out your car, not to mention maybe gas mileage among others.
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350 TPI
Flowmaster Cat-Back exhaust
Performance Chip (am trying to find out which one)
Modified MAF
Smog equipment removed
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350 TPI
Flowmaster Cat-Back exhaust
Performance Chip (am trying to find out which one)
Modified MAF
Smog equipment removed
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Joined: Jul 1999
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From: The Bone Yard
Car: Death Mobile
Engine: 666 c.i.
After the exhaust, IMO, heads are your best serious mod. Everything else will benefit so much more with better flowing heads and one of the few mods that helps ALL engines regardless of its mods.
Immediately with the heads or after the heads, the intake.
To do a full intake (base, runners, tb) you'll spend just as much, (if not more) than some decent heads. And the heads will give you more than the intake. After the heads, then the intake will really give you a nice gain...and all you have left is the cam.
For some reason, people do heads LAST as their serious mods...when I feel it should be the first.
[This message has been edited by Glenn91L98GTA (edited January 21, 2001).]
Immediately with the heads or after the heads, the intake.
To do a full intake (base, runners, tb) you'll spend just as much, (if not more) than some decent heads. And the heads will give you more than the intake. After the heads, then the intake will really give you a nice gain...and all you have left is the cam.
For some reason, people do heads LAST as their serious mods...when I feel it should be the first.
[This message has been edited by Glenn91L98GTA (edited January 21, 2001).]
Senior Member
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From: outerspace(maybe..pluto)?
first and least expensive a 160 thermostat, becuase it probably stays about 210 or 220 on a hot day! performance = tempeture! the cooler the better (well no where below 160 or so) the sensors have probs below that!
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1989 firebird formula
Mods: converted from T.B.I. to a carburator 305 to a 350. Flowmater exhaust,hedman shortie hedders,202 heads,350 horse cam,bored.40 over, Edlebrock torker2 intake.
Future mods performer rpm air gap intake (polished) and 600 edlebrock carb, comp roller cam, and way better headsa 400 defintely in the works!
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1989 firebird formula
Mods: converted from T.B.I. to a carburator 305 to a 350. Flowmater exhaust,hedman shortie hedders,202 heads,350 horse cam,bored.40 over, Edlebrock torker2 intake.
Future mods performer rpm air gap intake (polished) and 600 edlebrock carb, comp roller cam, and way better headsa 400 defintely in the works!
Banned
Joined: Jul 2000
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From: Columbus,OH
well Here is some advice you can afford. Heads are really expensive and they are a real serious mod. You can get a set of SLP Runners and a 52MM TB then Port evertything else to perform almost as well as an after market set up. Unless you are looking to spen around 3 grand on a 305. If so I agree whith Glenn
Where you should start would be with proven performance part. Doing the tune up always helps, Then do all the free stuf you can. Modify the MAF!!! then add some headers with aq good Y-pipe like the TES system, or the SLP headers. Also include a new CAT, it must be somewhat pluged up by now. A cold air intake of somekind is always good, eith buy one or make one, you have lots of options on how to do it. Then go to all the cheap stuff like a Shift kit, Air foil, Ignition box (MSD, 300+, Jacobs), and things to run cooler(160* stat and cool fan switch). After that I would goto Gears and better tires and maybe rims.
This will make huge improvement to you car without going internal, but if you want big performance you have no choice but to change the Cams and Heads.
Not Flaming on you glen, but the reason most people do heads last is because of money. It is going to be the last thing I do, but its ok because I planed it this way. I know what heads I am getting and already bought a Cam that will work well with the heads. When I get the heads I will port the intake to match them. Plus doing these mods takes your car off the road for a while, where as installin a set of gears or a shift kit takes a Saturday afternoon, and othe little things take a few hours.
Where you should start would be with proven performance part. Doing the tune up always helps, Then do all the free stuf you can. Modify the MAF!!! then add some headers with aq good Y-pipe like the TES system, or the SLP headers. Also include a new CAT, it must be somewhat pluged up by now. A cold air intake of somekind is always good, eith buy one or make one, you have lots of options on how to do it. Then go to all the cheap stuff like a Shift kit, Air foil, Ignition box (MSD, 300+, Jacobs), and things to run cooler(160* stat and cool fan switch). After that I would goto Gears and better tires and maybe rims.
This will make huge improvement to you car without going internal, but if you want big performance you have no choice but to change the Cams and Heads.
Not Flaming on you glen, but the reason most people do heads last is because of money. It is going to be the last thing I do, but its ok because I planed it this way. I know what heads I am getting and already bought a Cam that will work well with the heads. When I get the heads I will port the intake to match them. Plus doing these mods takes your car off the road for a while, where as installin a set of gears or a shift kit takes a Saturday afternoon, and othe little things take a few hours.
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Joined: Jul 1999
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From: The Bone Yard
Car: Death Mobile
Engine: 666 c.i.
Kyle, no flame taken. But, with TPI, after you add up ALL the costs of those "little things", they rapidly approach the cost of a good set of heads...but end up with less power.
The most common (yet poorest first mods IMO) is that damn intake. New base, $400, new runners $300, 52mm TB $300. That is assuming you port the plenum yourself. And this is just a LTR setup. A set of TFS 23* heads are only $900 and will give more HP by themself than the intake will.
People SHOULD give heads a lot more consideration and sooner in their build up; because they eventually end up biting the bullet anyways.
While a cam swap is cheaper, a good cam with stock heads will yield less HP than good heads with a stock cam. Also, you are most likely going to need a custom prom with the cam than you would with the heads. And lastly, a cam generally costs you low end torque for high end gain. You will either have to look at a higher stall TC or lower gears to compensate (add those to the cost).
Heads provide power through out the power band and can often suffice with a simple fuel pressure increase (though a new prom is preferable). You don't have to go to a higher stall TC or lower gears (though they will help).
Lastly, a 160* t-stat is a bad mod. I've done a lot of testing and found it conflicts with the eprom far too much. It makes the internals of then engine sloppier due to less internal expansion, makes the ecm think you are in "cold start" (which most eprom burners do not account for.. just the fans) and lastly ... they DO NOT add that much heat to the plenum (if you have the TB bypassed).
I have my TB bypassed and I recently monitored my plenum temperature with my stock MAT and my scan tool over the temperature differences between a 160* and a 180*. Difference in temperature...a couple of degrees. I can tell you that the HP gain from a 160* t-stat is minimal from a 180* based solely on intake temperature. But the power loss from sloppier internals is more with a 160* t-stat.
I only recommend a 160* t-stat to Ford owners now.
[This message has been edited by Glenn91L98GTA (edited January 22, 2001).]
The most common (yet poorest first mods IMO) is that damn intake. New base, $400, new runners $300, 52mm TB $300. That is assuming you port the plenum yourself. And this is just a LTR setup. A set of TFS 23* heads are only $900 and will give more HP by themself than the intake will.
People SHOULD give heads a lot more consideration and sooner in their build up; because they eventually end up biting the bullet anyways.
While a cam swap is cheaper, a good cam with stock heads will yield less HP than good heads with a stock cam. Also, you are most likely going to need a custom prom with the cam than you would with the heads. And lastly, a cam generally costs you low end torque for high end gain. You will either have to look at a higher stall TC or lower gears to compensate (add those to the cost).
Heads provide power through out the power band and can often suffice with a simple fuel pressure increase (though a new prom is preferable). You don't have to go to a higher stall TC or lower gears (though they will help).
Lastly, a 160* t-stat is a bad mod. I've done a lot of testing and found it conflicts with the eprom far too much. It makes the internals of then engine sloppier due to less internal expansion, makes the ecm think you are in "cold start" (which most eprom burners do not account for.. just the fans) and lastly ... they DO NOT add that much heat to the plenum (if you have the TB bypassed).
I have my TB bypassed and I recently monitored my plenum temperature with my stock MAT and my scan tool over the temperature differences between a 160* and a 180*. Difference in temperature...a couple of degrees. I can tell you that the HP gain from a 160* t-stat is minimal from a 180* based solely on intake temperature. But the power loss from sloppier internals is more with a 160* t-stat.
I only recommend a 160* t-stat to Ford owners now.
[This message has been edited by Glenn91L98GTA (edited January 22, 2001).]
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From: houston,tx.usa
well when i need a new prom should i burn my own by taking the time to get the hand held programer and the prom eraser and all that stff which comes out to be about 240 or 260 depending or should i just buy a hyper tech chip i heard the hypertech ones suck
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From: The Bone Yard
Car: Death Mobile
Engine: 666 c.i.
That is a tough one...your is th 85 tpi unit I assume...that unit is not well hacked so while you will benefit, you don't have the same abilities as us guys with later ecms.
But you will still be able to make mods to the common tables that most people just make anyways. You have to be kind of a fanatic "like myself" to go beyond all the normal tables. Hell, I am now using TunerCat's TDF Editor to define tables and constants that are not yet defined in their TDFs.
And if you have a carb, then you are really limited to just the Spark Tables...still worth looking at, but not much else you can do.
But you will still be able to make mods to the common tables that most people just make anyways. You have to be kind of a fanatic "like myself" to go beyond all the normal tables. Hell, I am now using TunerCat's TDF Editor to define tables and constants that are not yet defined in their TDFs.
And if you have a carb, then you are really limited to just the Spark Tables...still worth looking at, but not much else you can do.
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From: Columbus,OH
Well the hypertech chip sucks, They just have a cool name.
As far as the heads go, Yes in the end you do end up spending as much money as for a set of heads. Though I have never been able to save the money up to drop $1200 at once. Cause I will be damned if I will do all the work to switch heads out just to do it again so I will buy good heads first. Secondly You want to do mods to your car, and some people dont want to go that far. Thirdly you waqnt it now and not everyone can come up with that money right now.
Of course a 160* stat helps. Lowes the temp under the hood and that helps. Trust me there is enough expansion inside that you dont get sloppy internals. There is enough expansion to make a good seal in combustion chambers, unless your engine is aged and could use a rebuild or you are low on compression. As far as HP increase goes I guess you would be lucky to see a 1 or 2hp increase after the car is fully warmed up, THough if you are already sucking cold air from outside the car through some kind of cold air intake then I would say your looking at 0-1hp increase at full running temperature. Then you get maybe 1 or 2 hp from the Throttleboddy bypass. THough none of these mad much of a difference they do start to add up if you do enough small stuff. They way I look at it is the easy way to add 10hp to my car is to find 1 hp in 10 different places.
I guess what I am saying is every little bit counts and adds up in the end. I find the Glenn you know a lot about what you are talking about, though sometimes you forget that not everyone is going to spen big money on mods. SOme do and Some don't. I personally was on a ver restricted budget in High School when I got my car, I would have never been able to get heads or the stuff to burn Proms. Though I could afford other things like Fuel pressure regulator, exhaust system, Good Igniton system, and other things. Also since I am mechanically capable I could also do all the low cost stuff like Porting, Modifying the MAF, Tb by pass, shift kit, air foil, K&N, and othe little things. THough over time these added up into a very fast 305, and 80% of it carried over to the 355 that now shakes the beast.
Please do not take offence to this, I am not flaming(and I am getting tired of having to say that 'cause I remember a time when people could disagree on here in a constructive manner and not get personal about it)just making a point that consider what some people are aiming for. I don't think that everyone on this board is even after 300 hp , some are just wantnig to do what ever they can and still look stock. Some just want to know what free stuff they can do and still others want to know what I can make if I get these big $$$ heads, this awesome Cam, 4.56 gears and so on. I maen this post was for what my first mods should be, I dont think it should be heads or anything to expensive. He said he doesnt have a lot of money thats my point.
Kyle F
As far as the heads go, Yes in the end you do end up spending as much money as for a set of heads. Though I have never been able to save the money up to drop $1200 at once. Cause I will be damned if I will do all the work to switch heads out just to do it again so I will buy good heads first. Secondly You want to do mods to your car, and some people dont want to go that far. Thirdly you waqnt it now and not everyone can come up with that money right now.
Of course a 160* stat helps. Lowes the temp under the hood and that helps. Trust me there is enough expansion inside that you dont get sloppy internals. There is enough expansion to make a good seal in combustion chambers, unless your engine is aged and could use a rebuild or you are low on compression. As far as HP increase goes I guess you would be lucky to see a 1 or 2hp increase after the car is fully warmed up, THough if you are already sucking cold air from outside the car through some kind of cold air intake then I would say your looking at 0-1hp increase at full running temperature. Then you get maybe 1 or 2 hp from the Throttleboddy bypass. THough none of these mad much of a difference they do start to add up if you do enough small stuff. They way I look at it is the easy way to add 10hp to my car is to find 1 hp in 10 different places.
I guess what I am saying is every little bit counts and adds up in the end. I find the Glenn you know a lot about what you are talking about, though sometimes you forget that not everyone is going to spen big money on mods. SOme do and Some don't. I personally was on a ver restricted budget in High School when I got my car, I would have never been able to get heads or the stuff to burn Proms. Though I could afford other things like Fuel pressure regulator, exhaust system, Good Igniton system, and other things. Also since I am mechanically capable I could also do all the low cost stuff like Porting, Modifying the MAF, Tb by pass, shift kit, air foil, K&N, and othe little things. THough over time these added up into a very fast 305, and 80% of it carried over to the 355 that now shakes the beast.
Please do not take offence to this, I am not flaming(and I am getting tired of having to say that 'cause I remember a time when people could disagree on here in a constructive manner and not get personal about it)just making a point that consider what some people are aiming for. I don't think that everyone on this board is even after 300 hp , some are just wantnig to do what ever they can and still look stock. Some just want to know what free stuff they can do and still others want to know what I can make if I get these big $$$ heads, this awesome Cam, 4.56 gears and so on. I maen this post was for what my first mods should be, I dont think it should be heads or anything to expensive. He said he doesnt have a lot of money thats my point.
Kyle F
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13
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From: El Cajon, California
I'm still a litle new to this myself, I bought my IROC right before christmas. It was bone stock. The first mods that I have performed I removed the baffles from the Air Box, I removed the Throttle Body and the Plenum I ported the Plenum myself, totally cleaned out the Throttle Body & Plenum. I couldn't believe te crap that was caked up in there. I also put on a set of MSD 8mm wires, I'm still waiting for my Cap and Rotor from Summit. With changing the wires and doing the Plenum and Throttle Body, it woke my car up. The throttle response is awesome now. theres nothing like hearing that Tuned Port open up. BTW I will be changing my plugs this weekend.
Junior Member
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
From: El Cajon, California
I'm still a litle new to this myself, I bought my IROC right before christmas. It was bone stock. The first mods that I have performed I removed the baffles from the Air Box, I removed the Throttle Body and the Plenum I ported the Plenum myself, totally cleaned out the Throttle Body & Plenum. I couldn't believe te crap that was caked up in there. I also put on a set of MSD 8mm wires, I'm still waiting for my Cap and Rotor from Summit. With changing the wires and doing the Plenum and Throttle Body, it woke my car up. The throttle response is awesome now. theres nothing like hearing that Tuned Port open up. BTW I will be changing my plugs this weekend.
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'87 IROC
ALPINE 7839 head unit
ALPINE EQ
MTX & Kenwood Amps
Polk Audio EX Seperates
Alpine 6X9's
2 JL Audio 10's
Grant Steering Wheel
MSD 8mm wires
Ported Plenum
and lots more to come...
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'87 IROC
ALPINE 7839 head unit
ALPINE EQ
MTX & Kenwood Amps
Polk Audio EX Seperates
Alpine 6X9's
2 JL Audio 10's
Grant Steering Wheel
MSD 8mm wires
Ported Plenum
and lots more to come...
Supreme Member
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 1,196
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From: Fort Collins, Colorado
Here's a good mod list to follow:
1. Free mods (TB bypass, plenum port, maf screnn removal)
2. Performance tune up (accel or msd ignition, synthetic oil, K&Ns, air foil)
3. Exhaust:
3" Mandrel Bent Cat-Back (edelbrock, hooker, flowmaster)
Headers (TES or SLP) and high flow cat
4. Chip (performance resource, hypertech)
5. Gears (if needed) 3.42(5) or 3.73(0)s work best on most cars
6. Cam and 1.6 roller rocker arms
7. Heads
8. Intake
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1987 Chevy Camaro IROC-Z
L98 TPI 350 (5.7L)
TH 700R-4 Transmission
Borg Warner 7.75" 9 Bolt Rear End
Current Mods: LT4 Hot Cam, Comp Cams 1.52:1 Roller Rocker Arms, Edelbrock TES 1 5/8" Headers, Hooker 3" Aerochamber Cat-Back System, Gutted Catalytic Converter, Performance Resource Chip, Accel Ignition Coil, Cap, Rotor, 8.8mm Wires, K&N Filters, JET TPI Air Foil, Ported TPI Plenum and Base, All Free Mods, Falken ZIEX Z-Rated Tires.
Best ET (w/o LT4 cam): 14.32 @ 97.7mph
(corrected for elevation)
7.5" 10 Bolt with 3.42s soon to come!
1. Free mods (TB bypass, plenum port, maf screnn removal)
2. Performance tune up (accel or msd ignition, synthetic oil, K&Ns, air foil)
3. Exhaust:
3" Mandrel Bent Cat-Back (edelbrock, hooker, flowmaster)
Headers (TES or SLP) and high flow cat
4. Chip (performance resource, hypertech)
5. Gears (if needed) 3.42(5) or 3.73(0)s work best on most cars
6. Cam and 1.6 roller rocker arms
7. Heads
8. Intake
------------------
1987 Chevy Camaro IROC-Z
L98 TPI 350 (5.7L)
TH 700R-4 Transmission
Borg Warner 7.75" 9 Bolt Rear End
Current Mods: LT4 Hot Cam, Comp Cams 1.52:1 Roller Rocker Arms, Edelbrock TES 1 5/8" Headers, Hooker 3" Aerochamber Cat-Back System, Gutted Catalytic Converter, Performance Resource Chip, Accel Ignition Coil, Cap, Rotor, 8.8mm Wires, K&N Filters, JET TPI Air Foil, Ported TPI Plenum and Base, All Free Mods, Falken ZIEX Z-Rated Tires.
Best ET (w/o LT4 cam): 14.32 @ 97.7mph
(corrected for elevation)
7.5" 10 Bolt with 3.42s soon to come!
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 634
Likes: 0
From: Essex, Ontario, Canada
My next thing is a 2800 stall convertor, then a new intake and runners.
Think seriously about a convertor. Alot of guys say this should be the first mod!
Bob
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350 TPI, 700R4(rebuilt), K&N's, MSD 6AL, Headers, Flowmaster, 160* stat, airfoil, MAF screens cut out. 13.88 @ 101.18 mph
Think seriously about a convertor. Alot of guys say this should be the first mod!
Bob
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350 TPI, 700R4(rebuilt), K&N's, MSD 6AL, Headers, Flowmaster, 160* stat, airfoil, MAF screens cut out. 13.88 @ 101.18 mph
Member
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 204
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From: New Hampshire
Converter really shouldn't be your first mod if you are planning to heavily modify your engine. You'll end up with one of two situations likely.
You buy a converter tailored for what you PLAN on doing, and have the wrong converter for what you have until you're finished with your mods. (And also run the risk of not being quite matched to the engine after everything is done)
You buy a converter for what you have, and after all the heavy mods you find yourself needing something completely different.
This of course only pertains to plans for heavy modifications. If you're plans will increase your engine's torque and horsepower by more then 40-50% of what it currently puts out, it's best to upgrade the converter last.
For the mods 85f-body is looking for though, it will probably be ok to upgrade the TC early and not regret it down the road. Of course, he may have a 5 speed manual tranny.
[This message has been edited by jRaskell (edited January 24, 2001).]
You buy a converter tailored for what you PLAN on doing, and have the wrong converter for what you have until you're finished with your mods. (And also run the risk of not being quite matched to the engine after everything is done)
You buy a converter for what you have, and after all the heavy mods you find yourself needing something completely different.
This of course only pertains to plans for heavy modifications. If you're plans will increase your engine's torque and horsepower by more then 40-50% of what it currently puts out, it's best to upgrade the converter last.
For the mods 85f-body is looking for though, it will probably be ok to upgrade the TC early and not regret it down the road. Of course, he may have a 5 speed manual tranny.
[This message has been edited by jRaskell (edited January 24, 2001).]
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Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 10,907
Likes: 4
From: The Bone Yard
Car: Death Mobile
Engine: 666 c.i.
Good point on the convertor...the convertor you need when you begin modding is not the same convertor you'll need after modding.
Also, DON'T get a cheap convertor..get a good one like the Vigilante by PCI. But now, you are looking at big bucks (damn near as much as heads again). But, I believe Vigilante allows you a "stall change" (or use to allow one).
But for the money...again you may as well consider heads.
As for being a poor student, I recommend just saving your money to do it right. In all honesty, a lot of those "freebie/cheapie mods" are not so free or so cheap. And, inspite of the manufacturers' claims they honestly don't do much. You won't gain 25HP with a Hyperjunk chip, you won't gain 45HP with a new exhaust, you won't gain 35HP with headers, you won't gain 20HP with underdrive pullies, you won't gain 20HP with an MSD6AL, you won't gain 20HP with a K&N filter, and so forth.
The two biggest horsepower bangs for the buck is #1 NOS, and #2 heads...plain and simple. All the SOTP performance claims guys make about those "freebie/cheapie" mods are strictly the placebo effect. When you go to the track and quanitfy them, you'll be lucky to get .3 seconds (if that).
I went through all of those mods too, and THOUGHT I had experienced a SOTP gain...until I took it to the track...then reality set in. I truly wished I had just saved my money and bought heads as my first mod, because I've already spent more than I would have if I had just bought some decent heads...and I would have had a hell of a lot more performance.
It's your money...spend it as you wish. But in all honesty, they do very little UNTIL YOU CHANGE THE HEADS!
Also, DON'T get a cheap convertor..get a good one like the Vigilante by PCI. But now, you are looking at big bucks (damn near as much as heads again). But, I believe Vigilante allows you a "stall change" (or use to allow one).
But for the money...again you may as well consider heads.
As for being a poor student, I recommend just saving your money to do it right. In all honesty, a lot of those "freebie/cheapie mods" are not so free or so cheap. And, inspite of the manufacturers' claims they honestly don't do much. You won't gain 25HP with a Hyperjunk chip, you won't gain 45HP with a new exhaust, you won't gain 35HP with headers, you won't gain 20HP with underdrive pullies, you won't gain 20HP with an MSD6AL, you won't gain 20HP with a K&N filter, and so forth.
The two biggest horsepower bangs for the buck is #1 NOS, and #2 heads...plain and simple. All the SOTP performance claims guys make about those "freebie/cheapie" mods are strictly the placebo effect. When you go to the track and quanitfy them, you'll be lucky to get .3 seconds (if that).
I went through all of those mods too, and THOUGHT I had experienced a SOTP gain...until I took it to the track...then reality set in. I truly wished I had just saved my money and bought heads as my first mod, because I've already spent more than I would have if I had just bought some decent heads...and I would have had a hell of a lot more performance.
It's your money...spend it as you wish. But in all honesty, they do very little UNTIL YOU CHANGE THE HEADS!
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Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 10,907
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From: The Bone Yard
Car: Death Mobile
Engine: 666 c.i.
You are welcome. I WISH someone had set me straight when I first got into "modding" my car and just said "get heads first"...that is my first regret.
My second regret...is NOT getting into eprom burning much sooner. Eprom burning has taught me SO MUCH about who the GM ecm truly works and how it interprets the sensor readings.
You want to make some spare money? Learn how to burn eproms! I get at least 3-5 requests a week to burn people eproms. If I didn't live in Canada, I would seriously look at doing this as a sideline. But unfortunately, just sending me your eprom to be reprogrammed is cost prohibitive due to the shipping costs and the taxes I have to pay to the government to have the eprom clear customs. AND this is if I do it for free. So I have to decline anyone from the US just because they don't want to pay US$100-150 just to ship it and receive it back...let alone what it will cost them if I charge them to modify it.
But, for a young student, with plenty of access to computers...and some spare time on his hands can easily make $200-500/week just doing simple changes to people's eproms. Hell, once you build up enough of a database of mods, you can just burn off the past BINS you've made for others in 5 minutes and charge $100-200, that will put any Hyperjunk chip to shame.
Will pay for your future mods real quick
AND with every mod you make, you have an additional BIN to sell to someone. Might even pay for your college education...hell of a lot easier than flipping burgers.
My second regret...is NOT getting into eprom burning much sooner. Eprom burning has taught me SO MUCH about who the GM ecm truly works and how it interprets the sensor readings.
You want to make some spare money? Learn how to burn eproms! I get at least 3-5 requests a week to burn people eproms. If I didn't live in Canada, I would seriously look at doing this as a sideline. But unfortunately, just sending me your eprom to be reprogrammed is cost prohibitive due to the shipping costs and the taxes I have to pay to the government to have the eprom clear customs. AND this is if I do it for free. So I have to decline anyone from the US just because they don't want to pay US$100-150 just to ship it and receive it back...let alone what it will cost them if I charge them to modify it.
But, for a young student, with plenty of access to computers...and some spare time on his hands can easily make $200-500/week just doing simple changes to people's eproms. Hell, once you build up enough of a database of mods, you can just burn off the past BINS you've made for others in 5 minutes and charge $100-200, that will put any Hyperjunk chip to shame.
Will pay for your future mods real quick
AND with every mod you make, you have an additional BIN to sell to someone. Might even pay for your college education...hell of a lot easier than flipping burgers. 
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 677
Likes: 0
From: Danvers, MA, USA
lol *visions of dollar signs*
I think I may have to get in on this PROM burning stuff
but Glenn, come on, there is so much you can do besides heads. I did other stuff (more than what is in my sig) and dropped an entire second off my 1/4 mile time, and went from 87mph to 93.5 in the quarter. Tuning helped BIG time.. messing with the timing, in particular. As did the boost in fuel pressure (despite what you say is an overly rich PROM by design) and the plenum porting I did. All that stuff helped out big time, and made a NIGHT AND DAY seat of the pants difference, with the timeslips to back it up.
------------------
91 Trans Am WS6
Bright White
5.0 TPI auto
Flowmaster 3" 2 chamber catback
Trans Go shiftkit
2000 stall converter
Built on Wednesday
I think I may have to get in on this PROM burning stuff
but Glenn, come on, there is so much you can do besides heads. I did other stuff (more than what is in my sig) and dropped an entire second off my 1/4 mile time, and went from 87mph to 93.5 in the quarter. Tuning helped BIG time.. messing with the timing, in particular. As did the boost in fuel pressure (despite what you say is an overly rich PROM by design) and the plenum porting I did. All that stuff helped out big time, and made a NIGHT AND DAY seat of the pants difference, with the timeslips to back it up.
------------------
91 Trans Am WS6
Bright White
5.0 TPI auto
Flowmaster 3" 2 chamber catback
Trans Go shiftkit
2000 stall converter
Built on Wednesday
TGO Supporter
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 10,907
Likes: 4
From: The Bone Yard
Car: Death Mobile
Engine: 666 c.i.
Man oh man. Just WAIT until you get into eprom burning and start doing some REAL tuning. The eprom is the key to unlocking performance and making the most of your mods.
Besides getting your engine to work optimally with the stock mods you have, you actually increase your gas mileage to boot. And you can CHOOSE the grade of gas you want to run. Want to have as much advance as possible to take FULL advantage of 92+ octane...burn the eprom. Get a second eprom, and you can create a "highway" eprom, that trades a little less advance to save some bucks on a long trip...or invoke "highway mode" (GM's hidden option that was disallowed by the EPA) and further lean out your engine for highway cruising and choose at what the minimum speed you want it to work and not work. You can have your cake and eat it too.
Goto to Traxion's article
https://www.thirdgen.org/newdesign/tech/promintro.shtml
for "Prom burning 101"...and get the MOST out of your existing engine.
As for my next mods...heads and intake (I'm doing both together to save time). I currently have a line on a MiniRam, and will slap on AFRs. If the deal falls through, then RamJet and Fastburns. This is the initial reason I went into PROM burning, because I puke at the thought of paying TPIS $500 for a stupid eprom, and with the RamJet...there isn't any.
See you at the PROM Board.
Besides getting your engine to work optimally with the stock mods you have, you actually increase your gas mileage to boot. And you can CHOOSE the grade of gas you want to run. Want to have as much advance as possible to take FULL advantage of 92+ octane...burn the eprom. Get a second eprom, and you can create a "highway" eprom, that trades a little less advance to save some bucks on a long trip...or invoke "highway mode" (GM's hidden option that was disallowed by the EPA) and further lean out your engine for highway cruising and choose at what the minimum speed you want it to work and not work. You can have your cake and eat it too.
Goto to Traxion's article
https://www.thirdgen.org/newdesign/tech/promintro.shtml
for "Prom burning 101"...and get the MOST out of your existing engine.
As for my next mods...heads and intake (I'm doing both together to save time). I currently have a line on a MiniRam, and will slap on AFRs. If the deal falls through, then RamJet and Fastburns. This is the initial reason I went into PROM burning, because I puke at the thought of paying TPIS $500 for a stupid eprom, and with the RamJet...there isn't any.
See you at the PROM Board.
Banned
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Likes: 0
From: Columbus,OH
Glenn no flames intenended. You are basically tellin everyone in here that our mods are crap without a custom Prom. I will let you drive my car if your eve near Columbus Ohio and tell me that you need a custom prom to run well. Then tell me that you cant feel it in the SOYP. I know that tuning the Prom will give me more, and I dont doubt I could probably get 25HP more out of it. Especially if I change the fuel injectors and program for it. Though I feel that all the mods I did made a difference.
Just answer me this, if heads are so important how fast do you think a 355 w/ an SLP TPI cam, 1.5 Roller Rocker, and stock 305 heads can run with a 2.77 gear and a hyperjunk chip controlling it?
I ask this question not out of spite but just to see where you think power can be found.
Just answer me this, if heads are so important how fast do you think a 355 w/ an SLP TPI cam, 1.5 Roller Rocker, and stock 305 heads can run with a 2.77 gear and a hyperjunk chip controlling it?
I ask this question not out of spite but just to see where you think power can be found.
Junior Member
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
From: Marietta, Georgia, USA
Ummm... About aftermarket heads for a TPI 305, which ones do you all suggest? How much power do you all expect to gain from a head swap? Just wondering... I also would like to get some power out of the 305 I have...
------------------
1989 IROC-Z Convertible
305 TPI automatic
White with black top
Mods:
K&N Filter
Modded air box
My webpage: http://mindspring.com/~humvee
------------------
1989 IROC-Z Convertible
305 TPI automatic
White with black top
Mods:
K&N Filter
Modded air box
My webpage: http://mindspring.com/~humvee
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 637
Likes: 0
From: Littleton, CO
Car: 85 Z28
Engine: 305 TPI (dead) -> building 355
Transmission: 27 spline 700R4 (another one died) -> T5 goin in next
yeah, me too, what hummer said.
i have a beefy ignition(MSD & stuff), air foil, K&N(who doesn't), and a couple apearance mods.
I was looking at the Twisted Wedge heads, just have no clue on a cam for a 305 TPI.
Later,
Jesse
------------------
85 Z28, 305 TPI A4
pretty stock with MSD and a few other toys
15.2@91mph
http://photos.yahoo.com/j_hougnon
[This message has been edited by oldblueZ (edited January 26, 2001).]
i have a beefy ignition(MSD & stuff), air foil, K&N(who doesn't), and a couple apearance mods.
I was looking at the Twisted Wedge heads, just have no clue on a cam for a 305 TPI.
Later,
Jesse
------------------
85 Z28, 305 TPI A4
pretty stock with MSD and a few other toys
15.2@91mph
http://photos.yahoo.com/j_hougnon
[This message has been edited by oldblueZ (edited January 26, 2001).]
TGO Supporter
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 10,907
Likes: 4
From: The Bone Yard
Car: Death Mobile
Engine: 666 c.i.
Kyle, this is not a flame, but it is obvious I cannot explain "algebra" if the person is not good in math.
SOTP is not a quantifiable result. Its a placebo. I've done a lot of testing and quantifying of these "time honored mod" and noticed very little gains with these mods in all honesty. The BIGGEST difference I got was from how I launched my car and the tires I used to hook up...not the 160* T-stat, relocated MAP, cranked up fuel pressure, TB bypass, etc. And I have all those plus more.
It was when I got into eprom burning and learnt how to tune for it (and interpret all the Diacom data) that I saw the reality of all those mods...they ACTUALLY killed performance...not help it. I'm just trying to show people where they are better off to spend their money, than whittle it away on mods that do not work; which I wish I had someone do for me!
In all honesty, I think the first thing a person should do (besides buying a good shop manual and learning how to do their own mechanical work) is to learn how to burn an eprom. In the long run, if they plan to constantly modify their motor, they will benefit in the long run. I think a basically stock engine is the perfect place to begin because you have the stock GM memcal as a fall back if you make a mistake (and you will, its the only way you learn).
As for my cutting down these "off-the-shelf" eproms, take a little tour on the PROM board, and you'll notice a lot of people that are just learning did the same thing I did...compared their "off-the-shelf" eprom to the stock GM memcal...and they discovered what I discovered...they did NOTHING! A couple of degrees of spark advance in the mid-range...possibly lock the TC a couple of mph higer... but THAT'S IT! Of course I am going to warn people of this blatant rip-off!
But rather than argue with you, I offer this challenge...learn how to burn an eprom and tune it. Take your stock GM memcal and compare the BIN to your Hypertech and report to everyone EXACTLY what the differences are. Learn how to interpret the results of a Diacom scan and then start to see what these mods REALLY do. After you scratch your head and wonder why this mod is not giving you the results and try it without it and notice it runs better and behaves like it should, you will come to the same conclusion I did...they don't work.
When people crank up your fuel pressure, they are saying that your engine NEEDS more fuel. Exactly the same as going to larger jets on a carb. How many people on a basically stock engine makes one of their first mods...go to a larger jet size? No one. But with FI they do? Does this make sense? I understand the concept of better atomization...but you are also adding more fuel. If I was to ask "What makes you think that your engine NEEDS more fuel?", most people would have no hard evidence that they are running lean @ WOT. If you are not running lean, you don't need more fuel. Do you think GM made the engines run leaner than they should? Hell no, they made them run richer to avoid accidental detonation and warranty claims. Yes, the GM memcal is too rich, not too lean. That I have already discovered when I first got into eprom burning.
Kyle F, I personally see no reason for me to travel to Columbus, OH; but you can come here to Kamloops, BC. I'll put a scan tool on your engine and show you what it is REALLY doing...possibly burn you an eprom, maybe try removing some of those mods...and QUANTIFY the results. What you will find is that your car is performing BETTER and gets better gas mileage to boot. I might even be able to enlightening you and teach you some tricks. Then we can both talk about "algebra".
SOTP is not a quantifiable result. Its a placebo. I've done a lot of testing and quantifying of these "time honored mod" and noticed very little gains with these mods in all honesty. The BIGGEST difference I got was from how I launched my car and the tires I used to hook up...not the 160* T-stat, relocated MAP, cranked up fuel pressure, TB bypass, etc. And I have all those plus more.
It was when I got into eprom burning and learnt how to tune for it (and interpret all the Diacom data) that I saw the reality of all those mods...they ACTUALLY killed performance...not help it. I'm just trying to show people where they are better off to spend their money, than whittle it away on mods that do not work; which I wish I had someone do for me!
In all honesty, I think the first thing a person should do (besides buying a good shop manual and learning how to do their own mechanical work) is to learn how to burn an eprom. In the long run, if they plan to constantly modify their motor, they will benefit in the long run. I think a basically stock engine is the perfect place to begin because you have the stock GM memcal as a fall back if you make a mistake (and you will, its the only way you learn).
As for my cutting down these "off-the-shelf" eproms, take a little tour on the PROM board, and you'll notice a lot of people that are just learning did the same thing I did...compared their "off-the-shelf" eprom to the stock GM memcal...and they discovered what I discovered...they did NOTHING! A couple of degrees of spark advance in the mid-range...possibly lock the TC a couple of mph higer... but THAT'S IT! Of course I am going to warn people of this blatant rip-off!
But rather than argue with you, I offer this challenge...learn how to burn an eprom and tune it. Take your stock GM memcal and compare the BIN to your Hypertech and report to everyone EXACTLY what the differences are. Learn how to interpret the results of a Diacom scan and then start to see what these mods REALLY do. After you scratch your head and wonder why this mod is not giving you the results and try it without it and notice it runs better and behaves like it should, you will come to the same conclusion I did...they don't work.
When people crank up your fuel pressure, they are saying that your engine NEEDS more fuel. Exactly the same as going to larger jets on a carb. How many people on a basically stock engine makes one of their first mods...go to a larger jet size? No one. But with FI they do? Does this make sense? I understand the concept of better atomization...but you are also adding more fuel. If I was to ask "What makes you think that your engine NEEDS more fuel?", most people would have no hard evidence that they are running lean @ WOT. If you are not running lean, you don't need more fuel. Do you think GM made the engines run leaner than they should? Hell no, they made them run richer to avoid accidental detonation and warranty claims. Yes, the GM memcal is too rich, not too lean. That I have already discovered when I first got into eprom burning.
Kyle F, I personally see no reason for me to travel to Columbus, OH; but you can come here to Kamloops, BC. I'll put a scan tool on your engine and show you what it is REALLY doing...possibly burn you an eprom, maybe try removing some of those mods...and QUANTIFY the results. What you will find is that your car is performing BETTER and gets better gas mileage to boot. I might even be able to enlightening you and teach you some tricks. Then we can both talk about "algebra".
Member
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 436
Likes: 0
From: Ft. Worth, TX
Car: 89 Turbo Trans Am and lots of non-3rd gens
Engine: 231 SFI Turbo's, LT4, LT1
Transmission: 2004r, 4L60E
To get the most out of any mod, you need to burn a new eprom. If you make a mod to allow more air intake, easier exhaust exit, more fuel, a new eprom prog should accomany that mod to get the most out of it. Sure, you can bolt on parts and get more hp sometimes, but you can get even more if you make the changes to the timing, injector pulsewidths, duty cycle, etc in the eprom. In Turbo Regal world, if you can't burn your own, you list every mod to the car, and someone can burn you a custom chip for your mods for usually about $50, then use your scan tool, and thats where you can really tell the difference. You'd be surprised just how much hp is robbed from you if your running rich. You get your eprom burned so that your running right on the edge of lean without detonation all the way thru the gears, and look out, great hp all the way thru the rpm range.
Just my O2's...
------------------
Rob
High Performance & Party page
Pics of my rides past & present and recent party pics!
89 TTA #426 20th Anniversary turbo 3.8 bone stock
94 Silverado Tuned Port Injected
87 Grand National- lil' ole V6, highly modded
95 Trans Am Conv.- LT1
Just my O2's...
------------------
Rob
High Performance & Party page
Pics of my rides past & present and recent party pics!
89 TTA #426 20th Anniversary turbo 3.8 bone stock
94 Silverado Tuned Port Injected
87 Grand National- lil' ole V6, highly modded
95 Trans Am Conv.- LT1
Thread Starter
Member
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 204
Likes: 0
From: houston,tx.usa
i was thinking about buying all that prom burning stuff but i have to scour up 240 dollars and even then i am not really sure what i should change because i am not that familiar with the pulse and spark stuff i need some help with that and if i can figure that out i can burn my own proms and make some money doing other ppls
TGO Supporter
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 10,907
Likes: 4
From: The Bone Yard
Car: Death Mobile
Engine: 666 c.i.
Thanks for those words Quik, I completely agree with you. In fact, what you are saying is the real problem with the stock eprom and those "aftermarket" eproms...they error on the side of too rich to avoid potential warranty claims from detonation.
I have found that INITIALLY giving a little shot of fuel and spark WILL give you that "trigger like" part throttle response...but part throttle response has nothing to do with WOT. This can be accomplished with a "pump shot" and then you have to lean it out if you want to get maximum power. When someone coined that expression "Lean is Mean"...they really knew what they were saying.
I have found that INITIALLY giving a little shot of fuel and spark WILL give you that "trigger like" part throttle response...but part throttle response has nothing to do with WOT. This can be accomplished with a "pump shot" and then you have to lean it out if you want to get maximum power. When someone coined that expression "Lean is Mean"...they really knew what they were saying.
TGO Supporter
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 10,907
Likes: 4
From: The Bone Yard
Car: Death Mobile
Engine: 666 c.i.
85-Fbody, before you begin to change things, you need to know how your current setup is running. Is your car consistenly running too rich through out the entire power band at all rpm/load ranges, is it mixed all over the powerband, do you have knock retard occurring and where, do you have a stumble or flat-spot somewhere, etc.
You have to find out how your engine is currently running and then you can determine what changes are necessary. Once you determine how your engine is behaving, then you can come over to the PROM board, explain your problem and then you'll get some of the guys to give suggested changes.
For myself, initially I found richness was my problem and my engine was mechanically setup to run as lean as possible (I had lowered my fuel pressure as low as possible and STILL I was too rich). I had taken off the majority of my "time honored mods" in a quest to get leaner...and STILL I was too rich. That is what made me come to the conclusion that the only way to resolve this rich problem was to get into eprom burning.
After I started to tweak the eprom and got myself to a closer "128/128 perfect" eprom, that is when I went back to my mods and noticed their effect...and noticed that they contributed to my richness problem. But NOW I was able to compensate for it. This is when I noticed that some of these mods made it MORE DIFFICULT to program around (a relocated MAT in cool or cold weather for example); and I switched back to the stock MAT.
I will add that I am still trying to make the concept of a relocated MAT work, but I need to redefine the entire 8D.TDF to do this, if I find a solution I will let people know.
But now that I can control the pulse width, I have now bumped up my fuel pressure to the time honored suggestion of 46-48. I found the effects of bumping the fuel pressure and the required changes to the pulse width very interesting and when I have completed all my testing, I will tell people the way they have to compensate for higher fuel pressure in the eprom. But I will give you one hint, the relationship is not linear.
But, don't freak out or let the "magic black box" scare you. Eprom burning is far simpler than you might think. The real time consuming part is the testing and analysis of the results. Once you have done that part, the actual change to the eprom (including erasing and re-burning) is the quickest of all the procedures. But it is the analysis procedure that is the most important. Because if you cannot interpret the results, you cannot determine what changes are necessary.
You have to find out how your engine is currently running and then you can determine what changes are necessary. Once you determine how your engine is behaving, then you can come over to the PROM board, explain your problem and then you'll get some of the guys to give suggested changes.
For myself, initially I found richness was my problem and my engine was mechanically setup to run as lean as possible (I had lowered my fuel pressure as low as possible and STILL I was too rich). I had taken off the majority of my "time honored mods" in a quest to get leaner...and STILL I was too rich. That is what made me come to the conclusion that the only way to resolve this rich problem was to get into eprom burning.
After I started to tweak the eprom and got myself to a closer "128/128 perfect" eprom, that is when I went back to my mods and noticed their effect...and noticed that they contributed to my richness problem. But NOW I was able to compensate for it. This is when I noticed that some of these mods made it MORE DIFFICULT to program around (a relocated MAT in cool or cold weather for example); and I switched back to the stock MAT.
I will add that I am still trying to make the concept of a relocated MAT work, but I need to redefine the entire 8D.TDF to do this, if I find a solution I will let people know.
But now that I can control the pulse width, I have now bumped up my fuel pressure to the time honored suggestion of 46-48. I found the effects of bumping the fuel pressure and the required changes to the pulse width very interesting and when I have completed all my testing, I will tell people the way they have to compensate for higher fuel pressure in the eprom. But I will give you one hint, the relationship is not linear.
But, don't freak out or let the "magic black box" scare you. Eprom burning is far simpler than you might think. The real time consuming part is the testing and analysis of the results. Once you have done that part, the actual change to the eprom (including erasing and re-burning) is the quickest of all the procedures. But it is the analysis procedure that is the most important. Because if you cannot interpret the results, you cannot determine what changes are necessary.
Banned
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,384
Likes: 0
You guys should really listen to what Glenn has to say. He has set a lot of facts straight for me.
Since talking to him, I have removed my TB coolant bypass and put my FP back to stock. And the car runs better. I also went with a slightly hotter t-stat.
------------------
91 Formula
305 TPI 5speed
1LE/G92/WS6
w/91 GTA rims,hood,gfx,tailights
Cold air ind. w/K&N, SLP airfoil, ported/polished plenum, March pulleys, TB coolant bypass,Crane AFPR(43psi),Crane Gold 1.6rrs,MSD coil,MSD6AL, Holley 9mm wires, fastchip, Bosch O2sensor, SLP headers & catback,short shifter,3:73s w/Auburn posi,160* t-stat,JET 195* fan switch, Macewen white face gauges, Autometer gauges, Zoom hi-performance clutch.
Since talking to him, I have removed my TB coolant bypass and put my FP back to stock. And the car runs better. I also went with a slightly hotter t-stat.
------------------
91 Formula
305 TPI 5speed
1LE/G92/WS6
w/91 GTA rims,hood,gfx,tailights
Cold air ind. w/K&N, SLP airfoil, ported/polished plenum, March pulleys, TB coolant bypass,Crane AFPR(43psi),Crane Gold 1.6rrs,MSD coil,MSD6AL, Holley 9mm wires, fastchip, Bosch O2sensor, SLP headers & catback,short shifter,3:73s w/Auburn posi,160* t-stat,JET 195* fan switch, Macewen white face gauges, Autometer gauges, Zoom hi-performance clutch.
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