Which would you have???
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Which would you have???
Alright I'm thinking about puttin a TPI on my '67 Camaro. Would you rather have a carb or TPI?
TPI will obviously get better mileage but does it sacrifice power compared to a carb performance motor with all the goodies?
Also I've heard about the MiniRam, is it any good?
Better than the stock TPI?
If I was to port the TPI would it be just as good?
If I do go with fuel injection I'll probly spend the bucks on a aftermarket real time computer. Know any good ones?
TPI will obviously get better mileage but does it sacrifice power compared to a carb performance motor with all the goodies?
Also I've heard about the MiniRam, is it any good?
Better than the stock TPI?
If I was to port the TPI would it be just as good?
If I do go with fuel injection I'll probly spend the bucks on a aftermarket real time computer. Know any good ones?
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Joined: Jul 1999
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From: The Bone Yard
Car: Death Mobile
Engine: 666 c.i.
The biggest advantages to TPI are: 1) Promotes low end torque (nice for automatics) 2) Generaly gets better gas mileage, especially if you leave the EGR connected. 3) It can assist you in getting through emissions, if you live in a place with a "clunker law". 4) Once properly setup, gives you better all-round "driveability and smoothness". 5) Some people think it looks pretty cool.
Disadvantages: 1) Expensive to upgrade. 2) Chokes off high end HP. TPI generally runs out of breath by 5,000 rpm (not nice for standards) 3) Diagnosing problems become difficult. Requires a scan tool to determine which sensor may be a source of a problem. 4) Difficult/time consuming to replace/reinstall TPI unit. 5) Depending on your base manifold (72* centerbolt), you are forced to use certain heads. 6) To get the full power potential of the unit, it is best to get into eprom burning. I note that you are going an aftermarket unit. However, if you go to Speed Density, it is relatively cheap to get into eprom burning and get better performance (and better gas mileage).
I know guys that WISH they could dump their TPI and put a carb on just because of the disadvantages of TPI. Their biggest complaing (besides the complexity) is that they can't get the top end HP without spending a LOT OF MONEY.
When it comes to top end HP, carbs are still the best bang for the buck. And a properly setup carb can get good performance while getting good gas mileage and low emissions. The problem is, not too many guys know how to properly setup a carb. But then, unless you get into eprom burning, it is even harder to setup EFI.
To get good power out of EFI, you basically have to replace the whole damn thing. Your choices are: 1) Large tube setup (good for stock looking unit and retains bottom end torque), 2) Superram which gives you decent low end torque while opening the top end potential more, and 3) MiniRam which looses some bottom end torque but gives you a virtually unlimited top end (depending on your heads and cam).
Again, each has advantages and disadvantages. But they all share one disadvantage: Expensive. The cheapeast is the Large Tube setup but you are looking at a base manifold ($400-450), runners ($400-450), and often a throttle body, new injectors and probably a new eprom. Superram requires a base (as above) plus the "pizza box with runners" which runs around $700 (price has changed).
The Superram is the most difficult to install (on some cars you must remove the wiper motors to install it and you can have a strut tower brace) and a lot of people seem to have difficulty in getting their power potential with the Superram. When I see cars that seem not to perform as well as they should, they generally have a Superram on it. I think their problem is generally eprom related.
Lastly, the Miniram is the most expensive ($900 plus fuel rails $300) plus you MUST get an eprom either from TPIS ($500) or custom. But when it comes to "customer satisfaction", these owners are generally the happiest. It is by far the easiest system to install and remove. Almost as simple as a carb/manifold setup. I know one person who claims that he can remove his Miniram in 30 minutes. They also tend to have the fastest cars.
As for computer, the cheapest setup to get into is the 7730 Speed Density computer. You can grab one out of any early 90's Lumina, Corsica, Berretta, Grand Am plus other cars (except W body) that had a MPFI 3.1 V6. They are a dime a dozen at a wrecking yard. Grab the wiring harness too. Then all you have to do is grab a memcal from GM for the L98. And get into eprom burning.
Eprom burning is a lot simpler than people think it is, plus the Speed Density setup is the easiest to reprogram in my opinion. It also avoids the restriction of having a MAF in the intake and is a simpler system overall. Lastly, when properly setup, Speed Density if the faster reacting of the two. Its a hell of a lot simpler (and cheaper) than a DFI unit. Cost to get into eprom burning is about $200-$250 for the burner, eraser and editting software.
A scan tool (which is very nice to have with SD) will run you from $200 - $500, depending on which one you go with. I almost feel that it is a "must have" for EFI, especially when you are trying to isolate problems, let alone get into eprom burning.
If you were to go Speed Density and Miniram, it avoids buying a TPI setup (which will virtually be discarded). With a Large Tube Runner setup, you REALLY just want the plenum as you will replace the base and the runners. The problem is, no one will just sell you that plenum. So this makes the total "entry price" for TPI with Large Tube Runners expensive as you are going to have to buy basically a whole system when you really just want the plenum. The other alternative is again the Superram.
So, there's the "Reader's Digest" version of your alternatives. When you start adding up the TOTAL COST, you start to realize that you are going to have to own your car a very long time and drive it a LOT before you'll ever recover your initial investment in gas savings in my opinion. From that perspective, I would not recommend the swap.
However, from a driveability perspective, you may consider it worthwhile. I HIGHLY recommend getting into eprom burning if you are serious about this conversion. It will save you money in the long run and allow you to get the most from your EFI system for performance, driveabiltiy and gas mileage.
Right now, I am getting over 28 US mpgs by invoking "Highway Mode" on my SD TPI. This was before I had it optimized too. I haven't had an opportunity to test it since I've further optimized it, but I am expecting to hit 29 and possibly 30 US mpg with it now. This is in a mountainous area too. There aren't too many flat stretches of road in British Columbia where I live. In the summer, I plan to take a trip to the Prairies where I can fully test my highway mileage.
Disadvantages: 1) Expensive to upgrade. 2) Chokes off high end HP. TPI generally runs out of breath by 5,000 rpm (not nice for standards) 3) Diagnosing problems become difficult. Requires a scan tool to determine which sensor may be a source of a problem. 4) Difficult/time consuming to replace/reinstall TPI unit. 5) Depending on your base manifold (72* centerbolt), you are forced to use certain heads. 6) To get the full power potential of the unit, it is best to get into eprom burning. I note that you are going an aftermarket unit. However, if you go to Speed Density, it is relatively cheap to get into eprom burning and get better performance (and better gas mileage).
I know guys that WISH they could dump their TPI and put a carb on just because of the disadvantages of TPI. Their biggest complaing (besides the complexity) is that they can't get the top end HP without spending a LOT OF MONEY.
When it comes to top end HP, carbs are still the best bang for the buck. And a properly setup carb can get good performance while getting good gas mileage and low emissions. The problem is, not too many guys know how to properly setup a carb. But then, unless you get into eprom burning, it is even harder to setup EFI.
To get good power out of EFI, you basically have to replace the whole damn thing. Your choices are: 1) Large tube setup (good for stock looking unit and retains bottom end torque), 2) Superram which gives you decent low end torque while opening the top end potential more, and 3) MiniRam which looses some bottom end torque but gives you a virtually unlimited top end (depending on your heads and cam).
Again, each has advantages and disadvantages. But they all share one disadvantage: Expensive. The cheapeast is the Large Tube setup but you are looking at a base manifold ($400-450), runners ($400-450), and often a throttle body, new injectors and probably a new eprom. Superram requires a base (as above) plus the "pizza box with runners" which runs around $700 (price has changed).
The Superram is the most difficult to install (on some cars you must remove the wiper motors to install it and you can have a strut tower brace) and a lot of people seem to have difficulty in getting their power potential with the Superram. When I see cars that seem not to perform as well as they should, they generally have a Superram on it. I think their problem is generally eprom related.
Lastly, the Miniram is the most expensive ($900 plus fuel rails $300) plus you MUST get an eprom either from TPIS ($500) or custom. But when it comes to "customer satisfaction", these owners are generally the happiest. It is by far the easiest system to install and remove. Almost as simple as a carb/manifold setup. I know one person who claims that he can remove his Miniram in 30 minutes. They also tend to have the fastest cars.
As for computer, the cheapest setup to get into is the 7730 Speed Density computer. You can grab one out of any early 90's Lumina, Corsica, Berretta, Grand Am plus other cars (except W body) that had a MPFI 3.1 V6. They are a dime a dozen at a wrecking yard. Grab the wiring harness too. Then all you have to do is grab a memcal from GM for the L98. And get into eprom burning.
Eprom burning is a lot simpler than people think it is, plus the Speed Density setup is the easiest to reprogram in my opinion. It also avoids the restriction of having a MAF in the intake and is a simpler system overall. Lastly, when properly setup, Speed Density if the faster reacting of the two. Its a hell of a lot simpler (and cheaper) than a DFI unit. Cost to get into eprom burning is about $200-$250 for the burner, eraser and editting software.
A scan tool (which is very nice to have with SD) will run you from $200 - $500, depending on which one you go with. I almost feel that it is a "must have" for EFI, especially when you are trying to isolate problems, let alone get into eprom burning.
If you were to go Speed Density and Miniram, it avoids buying a TPI setup (which will virtually be discarded). With a Large Tube Runner setup, you REALLY just want the plenum as you will replace the base and the runners. The problem is, no one will just sell you that plenum. So this makes the total "entry price" for TPI with Large Tube Runners expensive as you are going to have to buy basically a whole system when you really just want the plenum. The other alternative is again the Superram.
So, there's the "Reader's Digest" version of your alternatives. When you start adding up the TOTAL COST, you start to realize that you are going to have to own your car a very long time and drive it a LOT before you'll ever recover your initial investment in gas savings in my opinion. From that perspective, I would not recommend the swap.
However, from a driveability perspective, you may consider it worthwhile. I HIGHLY recommend getting into eprom burning if you are serious about this conversion. It will save you money in the long run and allow you to get the most from your EFI system for performance, driveabiltiy and gas mileage.
Right now, I am getting over 28 US mpgs by invoking "Highway Mode" on my SD TPI. This was before I had it optimized too. I haven't had an opportunity to test it since I've further optimized it, but I am expecting to hit 29 and possibly 30 US mpg with it now. This is in a mountainous area too. There aren't too many flat stretches of road in British Columbia where I live. In the summer, I plan to take a trip to the Prairies where I can fully test my highway mileage.
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Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 10,907
Likes: 4
From: The Bone Yard
Car: Death Mobile
Engine: 666 c.i.
Sorry, I made a typo above. With the Superram, you can NOT use a strut tower brace on 3rd Gens. Not sure with your car, but if you have one, it may not work.
Also, with the Superram and Miniram, you will most certainly need different injectors and Throttle Body (plus all sensors too). Again, SD is cheaper. You can get a MAP unit from virtually any SD car (same one that you grab your ecm from plus others). MAF units are quite pricey.
For your conversion, you will also have to consider the intake "ducting". Speed Density will make that simpler as you just need a tube to draw colder air in. With MAF, you are going to have to put is somewhere in your system.
So make sure you account for all the sensors too in your conversion cost.
Are you still sure you want to convert to Fuel Injection? If I haven't scared you, ODB will.
I will let him explain the advantages of staying with a carb.
[This message has been edited by Glenn91L98GTA (edited March 15, 2001).]
Also, with the Superram and Miniram, you will most certainly need different injectors and Throttle Body (plus all sensors too). Again, SD is cheaper. You can get a MAP unit from virtually any SD car (same one that you grab your ecm from plus others). MAF units are quite pricey.
For your conversion, you will also have to consider the intake "ducting". Speed Density will make that simpler as you just need a tube to draw colder air in. With MAF, you are going to have to put is somewhere in your system.
So make sure you account for all the sensors too in your conversion cost.
Are you still sure you want to convert to Fuel Injection? If I haven't scared you, ODB will.
I will let him explain the advantages of staying with a carb.
[This message has been edited by Glenn91L98GTA (edited March 15, 2001).]
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Honestly I do have my carb tuned (took many hours of reading to do) and my whole set-up is tuned but I only get a max of 12mpg no matter if my foots on the floor or not. I know it's expensive but I wanted to see. I think I may just stick with the carb.
How about TBI? I would think I could steal one off a truck 350 pretty easy. I might even be able to get a dual TBI and throw it on a dual 4 barrel intake if it'll fit a holley 4 barrel carb intake. Don't know crap about TBI though. But ultimately I want performance since I already have the 350 with all the goodies so it'll have to perform.
Also hows the LT-1 intakes? Are they better? Do they go with the Vortec heads?
[This message has been edited by MightyMouseMtr (edited March 15, 2001).]
How about TBI? I would think I could steal one off a truck 350 pretty easy. I might even be able to get a dual TBI and throw it on a dual 4 barrel intake if it'll fit a holley 4 barrel carb intake. Don't know crap about TBI though. But ultimately I want performance since I already have the 350 with all the goodies so it'll have to perform.
Also hows the LT-1 intakes? Are they better? Do they go with the Vortec heads?
[This message has been edited by MightyMouseMtr (edited March 15, 2001).]
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Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 1,334
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From: Key West, Florida!
Car: 89RSconvtZZ4TPI
Engine: ZZ4TPI
Transmission: 700R4 TRIPP TRANNY
You can be like every other 67 Camaro and have a carb, or stand out in the crowd with a TPI or LT1 set up. If you are not concerned with originality I think a TPI would look sweet under the hood. More work but with an overdrive tranny and the benefits of fuel injection, you will have a car this is a pleasure to drive.
------------------
Rob P
89RSconvtZZ4TPI
Edelbrock Hi-Flow Intake
SLP Dual Cold Air Intake
1 5/8" Headers
Semi-Siamesed Runners
MSD6AL/relocated MAT/ AdjFPR/IROC frnt@rear swaybar/wonderbar/steeringbox/alum drvshaft/ Alston SFC/3:23posi disc rear/MAC LCA/H.Adams Panhard Rod/KYB struts/ shocks/
92Z28convt5spd
71Impala convt 402BB
BETTER DRIVING THRU SUPERIOR HORSEPOWER!
------------------
Rob P
89RSconvtZZ4TPI
Edelbrock Hi-Flow Intake
SLP Dual Cold Air Intake
1 5/8" Headers
Semi-Siamesed Runners
MSD6AL/relocated MAT/ AdjFPR/IROC frnt@rear swaybar/wonderbar/steeringbox/alum drvshaft/ Alston SFC/3:23posi disc rear/MAC LCA/H.Adams Panhard Rod/KYB struts/ shocks/
92Z28convt5spd
71Impala convt 402BB
BETTER DRIVING THRU SUPERIOR HORSEPOWER!
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Rob how do you like the alum driveshaft?I'm thinkin about puttin one on my ride. That's one part, I think a TPI would look sweet too but I have a bigger cam, better heads, headers, duals over stock.
I'm wondering if the LT-1's are any better performance wise and would bolt to my heads. I doubt it though I would bet they have 4 bolts on each intake to head side. I'm actually thinking about the Superram since it's cheaper now. Got any suggestions for a better computer? I'm probly not gonna be able to try to burn custom proms since I already have everything bolted up and it'd be the last to put on so I'd need a real time computer to tune it. I've seen one for $850 but that's kinda pricey, saw the fel-pro one the other day but don't know how much it is. If anything I wanna avoid a laptop in the car since the interior will still look stock.
http://www.wolfems.com.au/
Check out these computers. I would love to throw one in my ride but I can't get ahold of anyone. I tried the one guy in the US but the email didn't go through. These things look sweet!!!
If you really consider what Edelbrock and Accel sell their EFI kits for (about $2000) going this route would probly give me better performance for the cash. Especially if I can find someone who wants to sell their Superram to me.
Anyhow thanks Glen for clueing me in to the big picture. I was trying to get a good deal on a stock TPI but performance wise I doubt it would stand up to what I want.
I'm wondering if the LT-1's are any better performance wise and would bolt to my heads. I doubt it though I would bet they have 4 bolts on each intake to head side. I'm actually thinking about the Superram since it's cheaper now. Got any suggestions for a better computer? I'm probly not gonna be able to try to burn custom proms since I already have everything bolted up and it'd be the last to put on so I'd need a real time computer to tune it. I've seen one for $850 but that's kinda pricey, saw the fel-pro one the other day but don't know how much it is. If anything I wanna avoid a laptop in the car since the interior will still look stock.
http://www.wolfems.com.au/
Check out these computers. I would love to throw one in my ride but I can't get ahold of anyone. I tried the one guy in the US but the email didn't go through. These things look sweet!!!
If you really consider what Edelbrock and Accel sell their EFI kits for (about $2000) going this route would probly give me better performance for the cash. Especially if I can find someone who wants to sell their Superram to me.
Anyhow thanks Glen for clueing me in to the big picture. I was trying to get a good deal on a stock TPI but performance wise I doubt it would stand up to what I want.
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Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 10,907
Likes: 4
From: The Bone Yard
Car: Death Mobile
Engine: 666 c.i.
Go to the PROM Board and read Tim Sifford's article (Traxion) on eprom burning. The link is on the top of the PROM board's main page...can't miss it.
Quite frankly, it is so simple to burn an eprom it isn't even funny; especially SD. Altering the actual code is much tougher (requires assembly lanuage knowledge), but eprom burning generally just involves changing parameters in data tables. No different than "real time" in, fact it has many advantages over "real time". At least with an eprom, you just swap it if you made a "boo boo". May not have that luxury with real time. Also, it is very hard to drive and tune. Most of the guys with Accel's DFI are having a dickens of a time. The SD system is one of the easier ones to modify and get results.
Quite frankly, it is so simple to burn an eprom it isn't even funny; especially SD. Altering the actual code is much tougher (requires assembly lanuage knowledge), but eprom burning generally just involves changing parameters in data tables. No different than "real time" in, fact it has many advantages over "real time". At least with an eprom, you just swap it if you made a "boo boo". May not have that luxury with real time. Also, it is very hard to drive and tune. Most of the guys with Accel's DFI are having a dickens of a time. The SD system is one of the easier ones to modify and get results.
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I have read the article on prom burning. Actually it's bookmarked! My thinking was if it's gonna cost me $200-250 to burn em then another $200-500 for a good scan tool plus whatever a stock computer would cost me I could get a aftermarket one for about the same price. But I do see your point how I can just put the good one back in, in case I F*up doin it. Alot to think about.
I fully agree that I would need to go with SD vs a MAF since MAF limits air flow to about 650cfm even with the screens removed. One of my 'qualms' with burning chips vs an aftermarket computer is if I go on a road trip I'd have to take all the crap with me plus buy a laptop. But who knows. First I need to buy a competition 2004r so I got overdrive. Hopefully I can afford it by the time Super Chevy in florida rolls around.
Glen did you check out that Wolf computer? If not, check out the #3 one and tell me what you think. Have you tried the aftermarket computers? No way I'm going with an Accel though.
I fully agree that I would need to go with SD vs a MAF since MAF limits air flow to about 650cfm even with the screens removed. One of my 'qualms' with burning chips vs an aftermarket computer is if I go on a road trip I'd have to take all the crap with me plus buy a laptop. But who knows. First I need to buy a competition 2004r so I got overdrive. Hopefully I can afford it by the time Super Chevy in florida rolls around.
Glen did you check out that Wolf computer? If not, check out the #3 one and tell me what you think. Have you tried the aftermarket computers? No way I'm going with an Accel though.