riotcow

Well since I burned up my wiring harness from my TV cable breaking...haven't been in a 3rd gen. Right now I have my 06 G6 GT...after a POS olds...

Anyway, heres the deal. I'm going to be buying a friend of mine 85 IROC wtih a nice body and interior with a seized 305 TPI in it and another 305 bored .030 over on a stand ready to build. Due to lack of funding currently, I want ANY thing that I could do to the bottom end that would be worth while for a few HP. I don't want to hear, "go buy a 350 and start from there". When I DO have the money available I'm going 383 LS1 All forged lower end with aluminum heads, but I want a toy until then.

I'm more than likely going to get a HSR, and possibly a TT kit shortly after the build that I want to be able to use for the future 383. So far for just the basic rebuild for Clevite bearings, Plugs and a Felpro kit is about $150.

I'm just wondering if the small bore KB's are worth anything, and what head/cam I should use with the HSR, and possible future forced induction setup. I'm not too worried about blowing the cast lower end with a turbo setup later on...just push me to do the 383 sooner.

Trying to keep the build around $500-700ish (cam,heads,pistons).

And I want actual parts/numbers if possible...
I know I'll need the heads,cam,pistons...etc)...but what numbers work well together for a budget mild build?

Thanks.

socal

where are you at, i'll sell you my strong running 305 long block if your in the area for less then $700
and i have a complete original l98 w 49k to sell w everything from accersories to tranns, and ecm, out of a 92z

riotcow

I don't need just a 3rd, non-rebuilt motor and another trnny lying around.

I've already got 2 305 TPI Set-up's from the intake to the 700R4 tip.

Apeiron

Your budget's a little scant for a complete rebuild. Power doesn't really come from the lower half anyway, so you could save some money by reusing what you've got.

riotcow

Being the block is already bored .030 over, I already need new pistons.

And the head / cam combination is something else that would need to be new.

I would just rather have some setup's that are known to have worked that aren't expensive, instead of just guessing at it and ending up spending twice as much fixing it/ getting the right parts...

I guess I'll just aim for around $1,200


Clevite 77 Bearings
Price: $65

Felpro Rebuild Gasket Kit
Price: $75

SpeedPro 844-H534CP030 Hypereutectic Pistons
Compression Height: 1.56"
Dome Volume: -5cc
Ring: 5/64 x 5/64 x 3/16
Compression @ 64cc: 8.4:1
Price : $120

SpeedPro Plasma Moly Rings
Size: 5/64 x 5/64 x 3/16
Price: $117

Eagle 356-SIR5700BBLW Rods
Rod length: 5.7"
Material: 5041 Forged
End: Bushing
Price: $266

GMPP 809-12558060 Vortec Iron Heads
Intake/Echaust Valves: 1.94/1.50
Combustion Chamber: 64cc
Max Lift: .475"
Rocker Stud: 3/8"
Price: $150 ($75each)



So far $813


But what about springs, lifters, rockers, CAM...and do I need different pushrods for the vortec convert? And what do I need as far as the head gasket?
----------

And like I said, I'll be buying all the top end Bolt-on parts AFTER the budgeted build.

Also needs to be said, I most definitely plan to upgrade the ignition with the MSD 6AL, with the MSD coil and distributor, when the time comes. As well as Adding the HSR, unless BBK come out sooner enough, with twin turbos...and in the distant future, maybe 100/125 shot.

I just don't want to have to BUY everything twice, so getting the bottom half built up, and waiting for the top end is fine. It will more then likely get TT way before I get NOS or the intake Mani, So choosing the cam should be based off running good with Turbos, and still perform well with Nos.


So how would that compare to just being cheap and goin this route, http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1023-...3286.m20.l1116
at $230?

riotcow

Hmm?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

eh that is doing things for pretty cheap...

i'm guessing vortec heads can work. think its been done before, else keep stock iron 081 heads with 58cc chambers and do some port work to them. have them worked over with new springs and such, screw in studs

i assume the 305 block has a standard deck height of 9.025 inchs. Leaving your pistons .025' in the hole. Run a steel shim gasket like the felpro 1094 i think it is. That will give you 9.25 to 1 compression...which is great with Iron heads

for cheap you can find a used LT4 hotcam and run comp 981 springs with some shims/offset locks so the vortec heads can handle the .492 lift. run 1.5 rocker arms. stamped stockers will do i suppose if your really on the cheap. else another 170 bucks for 1.52 ratio comp magnum semi roller rockers.

That will be a revvy little 305 and make a badarse street car if tuned right.

but since you want to run boost or nitrous, i'd run abit bigger spring with more pressure than the 981's. comp 941's designed for LS1 motors will work great and should fit in the stock spring pockets. pricey tho at 150 bucks for springs. the hotcam with its duration split will handle boost/nitrous fairly well. else look into a new cam, nitrous grind of some sort.

Apeiron

You're wasting time and money on new pistons that are more or less the same as the ones you've already got, especially if you're not having the block bored.

You don't need expensive plasma rings, a set of normal moly-faced rings are fine and 1/3 the price.

Vortecs are fine, but they won't work with your TPI intake base and they need work to handle higher lift. You could have the the same work done to your existing TPI heads, and lightly port them if you want.

You don't need any of that, the stock ignition will do you fine for a long time.

riotcow

That's more or less what I was thinking..since I know I can get the vortecs I was just curious if they are really worth the change and all the numbers for the lt4 hot cam would be a nice match.

As for the other guy...
1. Cylinders are bored .030 over like I said, so I do need new pstons, I just wanted to know if these are good enough for the price, or if the kb's are better enough to justify more....or what IS good.

2. I found a set of just Moly's for 99, the same size in plasma moly for 119.

3. Like I said, I can get them cheap, IF they are worth it. Not worried about the intake set-up, again that's to be addressed after I get the bottom end...which I already know what I'm going to be doing with more or less.

4. And most DEFINATELY with boost and NOS I WILL upgrade the ignition later on...not worried abou that right now.



So aside from doing a rework on the 081's, or using vortecs, what would be a cost effective way to get a little power...like he said, probably a used lt4 hotcam, but that's subject to what pries work out to be with other combinations. Also, I would like roller rockers, should the setup be enough to warrant it, but we shall see.

Any other thoughts?

Apeiron

I thought you meant that the other block was already built with .030 over pistons. If it's just a bare machined block, those are okish. Check the compression height on them, you might lose a bit of compression if your block isn't decked. I would prefer not to use hypereutectic pistons for something that's got forced induction or nitrous in its future though, and better rods might be a good idea too.

Sealed Power E251K30's are under $40.

Don't forget to leave some room in your budget for balancing.

Randy82WS7

ive had many strong runnign 305 engines that have surprised me and many others over the years

all happen to be 80 through 86 carb ones

the best one i ever had was a 1980 caprice 305 fresh rebuilt, milled stock heads, unknown new pistons, unknown aftermarket camshaft, stock aluminum intake

i had it in a 68 c-10 pickup with 3.73 stock axle and it flat out ran STRONG

currently we have an 85 elky original block i put together last summer, 350 camshaft, .030 flat tops, milled original 4416 heads, stock aluminum intake

runs VERY strong and SMOOTH, makes the heavy *** 2.73 geared elky book it very quickly off the line

the L69 305 that was in the '84 Z-28 with 700r4 and 3.73 was very quick as well

i would have loved to race all three with each other hehehee

would have been interesting


if you actually mess with a 305 it can surprise you


if you actually try

some ppl wont try, and are nay-sayers, and have no clue


im about to pick up another real nice running 305 for 75 bucks really soon

ill mill the heads and 350 cam it as well


i have to do the same to the 83 caprice 305 i have in the 82 t/a right now

a basic rebuild is dirt cheap

new bearings and camshaft and lifters are pennies,

machine work on the cylinder bores and crank and new cam bearings installation is what costs

cylinder heads usually dont need any work unless they are known to be burning oil other than aher than at startup only, and if the valve heads are not sunken then they are fine

use stock Z28 springs and stock umbrella type seals on the exhaust valves only and youll be good to go, they are easy to install yourself especially if you do it with the heads installed, tap hammer, air hose fitting, compressor tool, i have to replace these all the time




good luck

TPI-Formula350-

ur insane build a 350.. it will give alot more power and parts are cheaper then 305

riotcow

And of course some has to say that. I am NOT building a 350. I want the best performance I can afford out of my 305.

Worthless telling me to.

Like it's been proven, 305's aren't always the underdogs you 350 oriented people seem to think they are.

Apeiron

They are, but if budget is a greater concern than performance, and you already have many of the parts, there's nothing wrong with building a 305.

riotcow

Keyword I said was ALWAYS.

I've looked at a lot of numbers on a stock weight/suspension 305 whooping some lightened, new suspension 350's asses.

Moral of the story, not ALL 305's are underdogs, just alot.

Don't get me wrong, when I can afford it, I'll be finding another 90 RS like I had and putting a stroked 350 in it...nothing replaces cubes. But plenty replaces how well it's built to handle it.

Well, that is UNLESS, and that's a big deal, someone happend to have and already stroked and fully machined 350 block that's less then 200. If that can be done, then I'm all for starting with the 350...Problem there is, I'll lose my *** buying the forged internals I want.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

i hope to pick up a 305 5 speed car someday and build a stout 305 just cuz everyone says dont do it. I want to see what i can do with a HSR and 305-310 inches

i say go for the 305 since you have it and planning on a big motor swap down the road.

Apeiron

Not always in an absolute sense since some 305s are faster than some 350s, but always in a comparison of return on power for equal investment.

Making horsepower is like trying to become a millionaire. It's perhaps possible to become one by working your whole life serving fast food (and someone probably has), but it's a whole lot easier if you take up a more lucrative career instead.

riotcow

That's kinda what I was saying, I'd rather build a mild 305 on a budget that can bark at a few geared out POS's around here for now, and see what the little 305 can do...THEN put a fully attack 350 in there with money to play with...

That was kinda my reasoning for getting ACTUAL info on some sucessful builds that won't break the bank.

TPI-Formula350-

well your 20 years old so I'm sure you know alot more about thirdgens then me.... I had a 85 LB9 TA back in 1989( prob around the time were u were born after looking at your profile) with TPIS cam, head work, full exaust and many bolt ons. It was a nice car went low 14's which was very respectable for a 305 back then. There are some pretty fast 305 out there but if you do the same mods to a 350 it will be faster EVERYTIME. and since you stated you had plans on building a 383 you would have your 350 block and just have to get a 400 crank. Just looking to help you go faster

riotcow

Ok, If you want to play age as ignorance card...

Look up Bob Cook Ex-President of DAPA (Dallas Area Pontiac Association) in HPP or PE for his drag can am, street Can Am (both '77), the black with red stripes '04 GTO, the new orange with black '06 GTO...
That's my dad, before the pontiacs it was a '96 SS Impala, and we also currently have a '68 C10 we're working on.

Or how about this, have you ever spent a couple hours sitting with Tom Demaro(sp) talking about random stuff on certain cars, while playing around with a practice Tree? Soemthing like '04 Dallas PSN

Or spend anytime with Jim Wanger's? One of the contributers of the Early GTO's, and the main reason the '77 Can Am made it for the half year. Spent quite a bit of time with him at PSN around the time of his 80th Birthday and another event shortly after that.

Or how about Arnie "The Farmer" Beswick... Spent acouple hours checking out his Car and what not at some event a couple years ago... Watching him go sideways down the strip as I came out of the bathroom.


I know enough to say what I have. Now what I would appreciate aside from the leture on how I'm too young to know what I'm talking about, and hoow the 350 is better...I would like the objective information I asked for on successful builds.

I'm sorry that the 305 I did before was only a stack rebuild. And I'm sorry that since then I've been helping my dad with hi 455 street motor and his 455 alcohol Drag car, that he has since totaled. Fumes must have gotten to me.

I don't expect me throwing names around to change anything, or for you even to believe me..... But if anyone was at either of the Dallas PSN's that they say a scrowny little kid racing the golf cart around the parking garage, or sitting with the two guys at the table while cars we're being admitted...that was me.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

do you plan on keeping stock TPI or are you really pushing for the HSR?

obviously on a budget, stock TPI is your best bet. But i'd recommend doing some porting and siamesing to that beast. Possibly upgrade the runners to SLP semi-siamesed as well.

That will help compliment that hotcam.

IF you can port yourself you'll save alot of money just playing with stock 081 heads and porting those out. but vortec heads are cheap enough that they shouldnt be overlooked. Its just that you will need vortec TPI base or vortec HSR. Just adds to the budget.

Granted its not the best optimal combination of parts, but ported 081's with the right valvetrain parts with that hotcam will definately create a decent running 305.

You will need to tune that beast tho. Dont expect it to run well at all on stock programming. So you'll have to have someone do it or buy the stuff yourself and figure it out. Being an 85, i'd upgrade to a later 89 ecm and its 6E mask prom and disable the cold start injector, but a 87-88 ecm will work too and use the 32B prom.

TPI-Formula350-

well i was just looking to give you some insight on the benifits of building a 350 over a 305. Never said the 305 was a bad engine. But after reading your last post I see that you have hours and hours of talking ppl and watching ppl race..lol. So that must make a 305 faster then a 350. I've had thirdgens longer then you've been on the planet. Anyway good luck with the 305 sure you will find alot of useful help from the guys on the site.

riotcow

It's funny when the person playing the ignorance card, is the ignorant one.

I never said the 305 was better... but I said it can be built to be competition to plenty 350's.