Theking

iTrader: (1)

Hi!

Got some enoying problem with my car, it dosent have the smooth idle like it use to have, the rpm goes up and down ~50rpm , and the needle is shaking... I can feel some "missfiring" and extra loud sound, almost like and missfire, and the car shakes a little bit to.. and it died one time tonight and when ive tried to start it again (ho engine) I had to crank for ~10sec before it started to run. I logged the idle run (in the garage) with TTS Datamaster, the logfiel can be found here : http://theking.joakimweb.se/z28/tech...l08-ANYH_8.rar

Password for the logfile is : irocztts

I also filmed the rpmgauge and there you see how it moves, and with every move the engine shakes (dosent feels like and complete, smooth ignition/burn)..

the prom I use is this : http://theking.joakimweb.se/z28/rep/bin/anyh8.bin

Movie 1 : http://theking.joakimweb.se/z28/rep/film/tomgang1.mpg
Movie 2 : http://theking.joakimweb.se/z28/rep/film/tomgang2.mpg

Ive changed alot of stuff on my car (some of the things you will find in my sign, I also changed the ESC module, and I will change the knock sensor this week to)

as you can see in the logfile I got some knock retard (even if im idling and giving some throttle..) I cant hear any sound could it be bad combustion ?

I really dont know what to do... could it be the injectors that are bad ? they all measure 14.7 ohm .. ( and 14.9ohm when hot)...

thunder85

iTrader: (1)

first thing i would check is all vacuum connections.. i had one of my boots that had a crack in it (to the afpr) that was only visible on the underside when the boot was stretched over the port... when it was off it looked fine; it caused stalling, rough idling, idle searching, etc. use starter fluid or a propane tank and check around all your vacuum fittings. you didn't mention the condition of your IAC valve... if it gets clogged it will make your idle all sorts of crappy.

when you crank on it, does it smooth right out?

most of the symptoms you discuss sound like a more severe case of what i had.... all of which went away completely with the bosche type IIIs. how was the car running right after you put the accell injectors in?

Theking

iTrader: (1)

My vacuum stays at 20, Ive sprayed with starter gas around the plenum and intake and there is no change in rpm.. That was the first thing ive checked out, (got autometer vacuum, air/fuel and fuelpressure gauge inside the car)..

My IAC (AC Delco) is new, my TPS is new, o2 sensor is new, ESC module, distiributor (msd) blaster coil (msd) sparkplugs ac delco rj45ts, msd 8.5mm sparkplugwires. new holley AFPR.

its bugging me because ive changed alot of stuff. and still there is that strange, almost like missfire, not clean combustion (you know what i mean ?)
and with that "missfire" not completed burn there is an extra *poff* in the exhaust, one more *poff* with a larger pressure / more exhaust gas... (hard to explain..)

what do you mean with : when you crank on it, does it smooth right out ?

Did you see how the needle jumped alittle bit with the "missfire"...?!

thanks for all the help

thunder85

iTrader: (1)

damn... i need to read. have you asked the guys in the eeprom board? what injector constant do u have? 24lb injectors on a 305 is seriously overkill.

Theking

iTrader: (1)

yeah but it shouldnt matter what size of injectors if I change the injector constant in the prom they said..

thinking of bad injectors (accel yellow ones.....) but i dont want to change them if it isnt my problem... and If I do change them I will go smaller again...

Thanks for your help man

thunder85

iTrader: (1)

the accel have a non-tpi friendly spray pattern... but if the constant is set back enough to compensate for the larger flow, then u should be ok. i just wonder if its set back enough... have you tried flashing a chip with a lower setting just for amusement?

oh, and when i say crank on it, i meant bringing up the rpms (cranking on the throttle)

Theking

iTrader: (1)

Hi again, yeah ive tried that, and sometimes when ai rew it up to 3000rpm it "kinda" backfires, I can hear and "miss" explotion, like an NOT complete or correct combustion, not always but sometimes it does this...

I got alot of logfiles here : http://theking.joakimweb.se/z28/tts.htm
the newest further down the page, tried alot of different proms.. the nr 8 works the best in blm and so... if you have tts datamaster please checkout my logfiles there..

its strange that it dosent run smootly with so much new stuff in it...

Thanks for your help man!

Theking

iTrader: (1)

Today I tried to pull the connector to each injector, the engine changed in rpm on every injector. So it got worse when I pulled out the power to the injectors, but on the driver side it didnt change that much, There was more of an change in idle on the passenger side, not much but I "think" there was worse idle on the passanger side.. not sure... So the injectors "may" be working then?!

I got 2 logfiles from today :
password is : irocztts

http://theking.joakimweb.se/z28/tech...8-ANYH_8_A.rar

http://theking.joakimweb.se/z28/tech...8-ANYH_8_B.rar

The car runs pretty good when i fire it up, it started at idle on 1200rpm (temp outside ~20celcius) and vacuum at ~18.5 (hard do tell exaclty by the autometer gauge. When the engine got running temp the vacuum is at 20.. so it holding good vacuum..) runned pretty good, almost perfect idle, almost no shaking at all..
the hotter it get the worse the shaking / missing gets... and all the KNOCK RETARD i get... why ?! it pulled 9 deg off when I rew it up a little....
When I gave it a steady throttle like 1800rpm for some seconds and 2200rpm for about 5 secs I could feel the shaking/missing in the car... (hard to explain, but do you guys know what I mean with that ? )

Will change my knock sensor as said (got an new one in the garage)..

And when I fired it up today it smelled really strong like an burning smell not fuel or something, real strong / sticking smell. after 2 seconds the smell was gone..

Any more ideas ? is it to lean ? shall I give it some more fuel ?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

my idle used to jump around with accel 24's till the car got warmed up but did need some idle tuning to the MAF table 1.

I do think 24's are overkill for a 305 but they arent too large that they cant handle small injector pulses at idle. Something else is wrong, or else the injectors arent spraying good

Theking

iTrader: (1)

but if you look in my logs you see that the fuel mixture is spot on (almost)
Got ALOT of knock retard and knock counts to.. really dont know why..
and the shaking part is so enoying, it gets worse the hotter it gets...
and the shaking follows with the rpm (if I hold steady throttle)...

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

whats your timing like? maybe its a bad knock sensor

Theking

iTrader: (1)

Basetiming 6deg.
And im not running over stock timing in the prom..

I got an new knock sensor in the garage will change that this week..
But still theres that shaking / missing in the car.
I put an bottle on the plenum and it almost tipped over because of all the shaking.. the engine shall idle smooth and not shake like that, the hole car is shaking it feels like its missing on one/some cylinders, like an not clean/complete burn / combustion..

Thanks for all the help.

irocuroc

check your egr valve

Theking

iTrader: (1)

Could I disable it in the PROM ? or do I need to do some more test on it ?
Sometimes the engine make an almost like "humming" sound from the center of the intake... could it be the EGR that makes that sound... it shouldnt be active during idle and no gear..

Maybe ill disable it in the prom and make an logfile to see whats happening..
Or shall I do some more test on it ?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

i'd check the ignition system and the plugs if you havent done that already. go over it again and make sure your getting complete burn

Theking

iTrader: (1)

Ive changed the distributor for some week ago to an MSD one. New AC Delco sparkplugs (gapped 035") new MSD 8.5mm ignition wires. and MSD blaster coil.
The sparkplugs where installe like 2 weeks ago..

I thought it would be better with all that but it didnt..

Theking

iTrader: (1)

Could this be related to my problem ?

it looked like this in the plenum some weeks ago when ive changed the fuelpressureregulator......

It smelled fuel... what can cause this, got a new PCV valve on the driver side...




Got it be an bad EGR and/or bad EGR Solenoid ? or both !?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

could be. Try disabling the EGR in the prom and see what happens

maybe a bad fuel pressure regulator

Theking

iTrader: (1)

Ive just changed to and HOLLEY , did the change for about 1½ week ago.
The stock one, looked good inside..

Yeah I try disabling it in the PROM, but if its broken it really dosent matter because then it will be open all the time, (and on idle it should even be activated in the prom to start with)..

Thanks for all the help.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yes the prom activates in once the car is hot enough. At idle your egr is on.

when you turn it off in the ecm, the valve will not open and the motor will run without it.

its worth a shot to try. Its a simple change or two in the prom. A bad valve may release too much exhaust gas into the chambers. I'm not sure, but could cause a problem

Theking

iTrader: (1)

So the EGR is active on idle ? I thought it where off during idle and no throttle..
Because in the logfile from datamaster there is no change in EGR or CCP when in idle and giving throttle.. when I drive and giving throttle I can see the EGR and CCP % active change ...

You are shure that the EGR recirculates exhaust when on idle and no throttle ?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

i was pretty sure its active during idle and part throttle. I'd have to check my cycle duty tables again tho to verify when its on and when its off. It only comes on when the coolant is hot enough.

Even if its off when it should be on, it wont cause that bad of an idle. I deleted my EGR and ran fine before i went into the chip and deleted teh EGR activation stuff

jv9999

iTrader: (1)

The EGR is closed at idle. The humming might be your PCV valve. Mine does it it sometimes. Did you happen to touch the valve train before this started? Valves that are adjusted too tight can cause your symptoms.

Theking

iTrader: (1)

Tried 3 new proms today. Got some logfiles and some explanation/info on this page : http://theking.joakimweb.se/z28/tts.htm

I also thought of this, could it be Preignition/Detonation ?
Because when i fire it up it runs pretty good, the hotter it get the worst the idle/combustion gets, the more it will shake...

Did try with EGR disables, more fuel, less fuel. and so.. as said got some logs and info on the linked page above Password to the files is : irocztts

jv9999

iTrader: (1)

So you haven't touched the valve train since it last ran well? Have you checked the compression? How does it run if you keep it in open loop? If it were me, I'd stop looking at the FI/ignition and look at the mechanicals. Something basic seems wrong to me.

Theking

iTrader: (1)

Ive never touched the valve train.
results of compression test


Havent keept it in openloop, maybe ill try that.. just to see if it runs good when hot in openloop..

Have checked vacuum, sprayed with startergas and used my vacuum gauge.. thats fine..

It still can be the injectors thou.. accel yellow ones arent the best ive heard.. the new ones (silver/white) is much better people says..

Will try an O/L prom and see how that goes..

and what basic could that be ?

jv9999

iTrader: (1)

You can just unplug the O2 sensor to keep it in OL. Did you check the compression hot? Probably not because it's such a PITA.

Theking

iTrader: (1)

Its inpossible to check it when its ~90deg celcius.. because you will burn your arms and fingers. Ive tried that.. the engine maybe was ~40deg celcius when I did the test, I wrote 20 because it took a while to do it. I need to do it alone. and Rigged an camera to see the pressure build up and so.. and all the plugs has to be removed from under. (its much easier)..

Will try and unplug the o2 sensor and see how it runs then..

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

i dont know if that will work..... the system goes into closed loop based on coolant temp. Once that is warmed up, then it looks for the o2 sensor. If the ecm doesnt see it, it will act poorly like if it was a bad o2 sensor

jv9999

iTrader: (1)

A bad O2 sensor also puts it in OL. What else could it do if it can't determine the mixture?

Theking

iTrader: (1)

I only think I need to remove the o2 sensor cable, the ecm will never feel the "ready" signal from the o2 and keep it in open loop, may flash SES light because of "falty" o2 when not connected...

Other ideas ? about my problem ?

regal301

my car does the same thing in park and neutral.kinda sounds like its breaking up. but it smooths out ok in drive and no miss when driving.im starting to think its a mix of the shitty ethanol in the fuel and the primative chevy fuel injection.seems like everything is down on power since they put that stuff in the fuel.

regal301

just put new injectors in and fixed it.

Theking

iTrader: (1)

Looked at this ? : https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tpi/...ctors-now.html

Going to try the Bosch III injectors later on and see if they solve the problem..
its a loooong thread so if you got the time then take a look at it.

regal301

i used the ford(bosch) design II 22lb hr. i got them from fuelinjectorconnection.com, $144.00 shipped to the door,3yr warrenty.my car had the same idle and popping almost misfire yours has on the video.it runs great now.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

That picture of your plenum look suspicious. You say that wet stuff is fuel? Look like it. The plenum should be dry.

Did you notice any difference in the motor after you disabled the EGR?

Theking

iTrader: (1)

Its smells fuel, really much (dont now exactly what it is but as said its smella alot of fuel)

I couldnt feel any difference with the EGR disabled, I couldnt..
Where on inspection yesterday, it went thru and all my emission values where really good (so they are back to good)

Still the shaking at idle is there, seems like its worst when it reaching 220deg F when idling in the city.. thinking of making a powerswitch to the fans so I can run them manually in town when cruising at low speeds.. then it never reaches 220 deg F...

And also im waiting to MSD to help me with the bad distributor, its cuts out when it getting hot.. and thats no fun... They seem to really wanna help, and that good

Theking

iTrader: (1)

You looked at the movies and soundfiles in my other thread and its the same problem !? I just changed to Ford injectors and the problems still there when it reaches working temp and its worse when it goes to 220deg F and 225 (when cruising slow in town and sun in the middle of the sky.. you know how it is intown hard to drive fast and let the engine to cool down, thinking of making a switch today so I can start the fans whenever I want just to help it cool down in town..)

87transGTA

dont mean to be a noob but what is afpr, and i got a 87 gta 5.7 tpi and the idle goes up and down on its own and it smells like fuel really bad outt he exhaust what should be the 1st thing to check plz help

Theking

iTrader: (1)

AFPR = Adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulator (aftermarket thing, stock one isnt adjustable.)

First thing to check is your injectors. Measure them and see what ohm reading you get, should be between 12 and 16. I you never done it before, look at this vid to see how you do it : http://www.youtube.com/v/_g8PdrT0MCU

If they turn out bad I would recommend the Bosch III modified injectors from Fuel Injection Connection. They cost $169,95 and got 3 years warranty.

Flowtest of the Bosch : http://www.youtube.com/v/KFY_PKJNqbs
Stock Multec injectors : http://www.youtube.com/v/APFKjP9upFg

So first thing I should check is the injectors. Is it hard to start to ?

87transGTA

so how could i change to the afpr

Theking

iTrader: (1)

Fist you buy an AFPR from example summit, I bought the Holley one for 99.99 dollars, That one I can adjust with my fingers, the other cheaper ones you need an TORX to adjust, I think its better with an adjustable with / by my hand.. much easier. it cost little mor ~35bucks more.. but its worth it

I got a how to on my homepage (direktlink to how-to) : http://theking.joakimweb.se/z28/project/holley-fpr.htm

Alot of pictures from the install, text is in swedish, havent translated it yet, but you see all the pictures..

Also I got my project thread here on thirdgen, I got some text there in english from when I installed the FPR.. link to that thread : https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/euro...ects-08-a.html

its further down that thread (first page)

And please feel free to ask any questions about the install, and if you want something translated directly from my page.

87transGTA

thanks alot that really helped and i got another Q about the gauges the fuel pressure gauge was that mandatory to install with the afpr and the boost gauge?

Theking

iTrader: (1)

The fuelpressure gauge I installed isnt mandatory to use, I just installed that because its looks real good and I wanna keep track of the pressure all the time.

But you will need and fuel pressure gauge to set the fuelpressure, you can use this one when setting the fuelpressure : http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku

43 dollars for the fuelpressure gauge, I thinnk its the same on your that is was for mine..

Boost / Vacuum gauge I also installed just to keep track of the vacuum (not using the boost part) So it isnt needed for the AFPR..

also when you set the fuelpressure, you need to unplug the vacuum hose that goes into the FPR and then set your pressure to 47psi is a good start to try. then put on the vacuum hose again and take her for a spin

87transGTA

thanks alot for the help i really apreciate it oh and one more question how was it wiring in all those gauges is it dificult and did u have to do any custom work to make them function correctly

Theking

iTrader: (1)

It wasent that hard, took some hours to install, thou its pretty much wiring to it. got some pictures here at my homepage : http://theking.joakimweb.se/z28/project/autometer.htm

just click the pictures and you can see how it looks. its in swedish havent translated that either yet, but as said you see the pictures

You have to cut and solder into the ECM harness to get the air / fuel ratio gauge to work (or buy an adapter instead of soldering) the vacuum hose is just to connect to the plenum where vacuum is present, and the fuelpresure gauge on the fuelrail . and then som powerwiring to the lights and so

regal301

220 is real hot, i have a 160 tstat and the prom altered to match,i did see the video and had the same exact thing.also the picture of the inside of the plenum,it looks like you have excessive blowby. when you pull off the oil cap do you get positive pressure and smoke coming out. my original motor had a ton of blowby.if you have a lot of blowby the iac my be dirty along with the throttle plates.also blowby would put unmetered air in the motor leaning it out and the oil consumption would screw up the o2 sensor.

armygreen87

Hey King, make sure your o-rings on the injectors are seated right cuz you could have a fuel leak from them. u would know this is the problem if your spark plugs are wet i think. don't know if this would cause a fuel leak in the plenum, but check the Cat and see if its any good.

87transGTA

would i have to make a fittin on the fuel rail for the fuel pressure or is there one there

Theking

iTrader: (1)

Yeah I know Also I changed to GM o-rings before the change,
Right now im running Ford injectors (Denso made .. wich is crap..)
Will change to Bosch III injectors, they are the best on the market.
Will drive the fords some week but Ill change to the Bosch III when I get them

Thanks for the heads up thou