Hi changed my injectors today, to Ford EV1 19lbs injectors.
Changed the o-rings to, used GM o-ring to be 100% sure for no leak..

Install went pretty smooth (and I fixed the throttlebody for you guys that read about that.)
Now to the problem, Made 2 PROMs, one with the stock code nothing changed and one with injector constant changed to 20.28 (because my fuelpressure is 44psi (without vacuum) and the ford injectors are rated at 39.15.)

I got ALOT of knock retard when driving why is that so.. cannot hear any sound or anything just the engine working , no mechanical sound or anything, nice steady rpm..

PROM one is my stock ANYH code with Injector Constant : 19.48 (thats my totally stock prom)
logfile from that prom you got here : http://theking.joakimweb.se/z28/tech...uni08-ANYH.rar

and heres the second logg with that PROM/CHIP its only idle and some driving when I park it, alot of knock retard when giving throttle at idle... WHY !?

Password : irocztts

And heres a sound clip how it sounded when I tried to start it. REALLY hard to start it now, why !? Clip one, started pretty good, clip to really hard to start.... why !? Its a brand new starter, that are schimmed and installed correctly (have tested 3 starters, and this on is brand new 1 month old and it works, so it cannot be the starter) New distributor, tried another pickup and ignition module, its the same...

soundclip 1 : http://www.alandsbrodata.ymex.net/sound/start1.wav

soundclip 2 : http://www.alandsbrodata.ymex.net/sound/start2.wav

soundclip 3 : http://www.alandsbrodata.ymex.net/sound/start3.wav


and heres the BIN file for that logfile, soundfile and info : http://theking.joakimweb.se/z28/rep/bin/ANYH.bin

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And heres a logfile from the second prom ANYH_20 : http://theking.joakimweb.se/z28/tech...i08-ANYH20.rar

Password : irocztts

very lean, thats because the injector constant is set to 20.28 (to compensate for the flowrate of the ford injectors, but that didnt be right...)



Will make an 3rd prom from ANYH and make the injector constant to 19 and see if it runs litte better, seems lean on some places in the first 2 logs...


Please guys, help me out, any ideas what could be wrong here ? Why is it so hard to start now ? and why is it shaking and wandering so much on idle when I got D in and holding Brake at stoplights ?! sometimes it really "misses" and the hole car shakes alot, and then the rpm gets little higher, and after some seconds its missing again and so on and on..

and this is how the plenum looked inside :





EDIT : made an new chip with 19lbs inj. constant, and some crankfuel ref.puls and crankfuel adder difference, less fuel on hotter temps, and also removed extra ignition when PE... what do you guys think of this : http://theking.joakimweb.se/z28/rep/bin/ANYH_21.bin

Will try that one tomorrow.. please help me out guys

also here you got an video file on how the RPM jumps around when it "misses/not burning right" its hard to explain but the car almost like it choking it self on some rotations.. the rpm drops 100rpm or more and the car kinda "wakes" up and it shakes alot when this happens... as said its hard to explain how it pretends, but you see the rpm needle and maybe hear how it runs ?!

movie : http://theking.joakimweb.se/problems...rocstumble.mpg

Its worst when I have a gear in and holding the brake at stoplights and so, not as much shaking when just idling in P its still there but not as severe..

Please again help me friends

 

Did you have 19# injectors before? Did it run OK before? If so, why bother with a new chip?

 

Did have Accel 23lbs injectors before... Thoguht it was they that where the problem, but the problem stills there, and now its hard to sttart to (as you may heard on the soundfiles)... strange that it is like that when i got stock lbs/hr injectors now and my stock prom and still problems.. need to try another prom today and see...

any ideeas of what can cause this problem..

Vacuum holds steady at 20 on idle when in P and when put in D or R it goes down to ~15 (is this normal ?)

Changed alot of stuff hoping it will help but nothing has helped against this problem....

 

Could it be the charcoal canister thats the problem ?
Is there a way of disabling testing the car without it ?!

Tried to disable EGR when I had the accel injectors, the car didnt run anybetter without the EGR disables in the PROM so EGR seems fine..

How do I change the charcoal canister filter ? Havent tried to open the box yet but maybe Ill have to take a look inside it ? could a clogged canister filter cause this !?

The problem occours when the engine getting warm/running temp,... sometimes just sometimes I can see that the "problem" is there when its just started (cold engine) to, the plenum/engine shakes with even times, like on each rotation like theres one cylinder not firing right..

New distributor, new sparkplugwires, new AC Delco Sparkplugs, NEw blaster coil and new ignition module and pickup (thought it was the problem so I got new ones from MSD on waranty)..

Running out of ideas myself..

 

Tried 3 different proms today... the BLM getting closer to 128 with each prom but still not there yet...

ANYH_21

Logfile 1 (ANYH21) : ANYH_21 Logfile
BIN file : ANYH_21
Password : irocztts
Soundclip 1 : ANYH_21 startsound 1
Soundclip 2 : ANYH_21 startsound 2 In this one your hear it starts REAL low and then jumps up to 1600rpm on idle (im not giving throttle at all)
Screen :


The car was hard to start, had to crank over and over, and the rpm needle jumped around, atlast it started and started from ~300rpm and stumbled up to ~1100rpm and then was there for some secs and then went down when the engine reached working temp. when putting in gear it starts to "miss" as id did before... took it for a run, ALOT of knock retard.. and im not giving much throttle either...



ANYH_22

Logfile 1 (ANYH22) : ANYH_22 Logfile
BIN file : ANYH_22
Password : irocztts
Movie clip : ANYH_22 movieclip IRL you can see the engine stumble/miss by it shaking not captured on movie thou :/..
Screen :


Almost the same as ANYH_21 this is an almost stock prom, just changed the inj. constant little bit lower... 19.15 is it set to instead of 19.49 as stock... Still got the problem with the shaking when in gear at stoplights...




ANYH_23

Logfile 1 (ANYH23) : ANYH_23 Logfile
BIN file : ANYH_23
Password : irocztts
Movie clip : ANYH_23 movieclip
Screen :


Combination of the crankfuel from ANYH_21 and an injector constant of 19.21 pretty close to BLM 128... BUT.. now to the bad thing, the car didnt wanna start almost when I was and filled her up with 21 liters of 98 octane fuel the RPM needle jumped all over the place and gave strange values (I have changed the ignition module and magnetic pickup, even thou the msd distributor was new...) and when I was on my way home the car died on me, when given that strange rpm values, it went down to 300rpm and then to 6000+rpm and I was pretty much idling when coming to a stop at a stoplight, so is the distributor bad again ?!

you see at the end where the red (RPM) line is going thru the roof... and thats where the car died (the second pair of reg columns) the first was when I stopped and filled her up, went to pay for the fuel and when I was about to leave she almost didnt start.. When i got home I felt on the distributor cap, and it felt hot (as the engine) but the engine never overheated or anything ?! What is going on with my car !?

 

this may sound stupid but new injectors that have been sitting dry do stick closed.. i had this happen a few times. run the engine and tap the injector case hard with a long tool that can get in there.. you won't break the injector but it could be running on 7 injectors. causing a lean condition. the cylinder does not go dead on 7 injectors. not like pulling a spark plug.. try it.. one you un stick it it will be fine

 

But if the injector is stuck that would not give the strange rpm signal right, that must be the pickup or ignition module right ?!

and when giving throttle is runs pretty smooth exept the knock retard and so...
This problem has ben here for 2½ years now and im getting tired of it.. havent driven much in a couple of years ....

Can knock lightly on the injectors but I dont think they are stock, also I could try removing the power to each and see if the idle changes if the idle changes the injector is firing, if no change in idle its not firing right...

Dont wanna be to hard and brake my new injectors...

Any other ideas friends ?!

 

Things I already done to the car :

Fuel filter,
Checked VATS,
New battery,
New ECM,
New PCV Valve,
New valve cover gasket,
New Sparkplugs (AC Delco RJ45TS gapped 035),
New sparkplug wires (MSD 8.5mm super conductor),
Checked ignition 6deg,
New injectors (Ford EV1 19lbs),
New o2 sensor,
New oilpressure sensor (above oilfilter),
Looked for vacuum leak (no found),
New starter (3times/different ones to make 100%sure (1where bad) I know its works now.),
New IAC,
Cleaned IAC passages and hole throttlebody,
MSD Blaster coil,
Compression test made,looked real good,
New ESC module and new knock sensor,
New distributor (MSD 8366) also changed pickup and ignition module this week because of the strange rpm signal, now its back

 

a stuck injector would do funny stuff.. since its batch fire, the cylinders will rob fuel from other runners throught the plenum. you won't break the injector, hit the metal part. its anout an 1/8 thick metal, how old are the injectors? you said its been a problem for over 2 yrs. Maybe if the injectors are old they are bad., but you say they are new. i'm confused

 

The problem ocoured 2 years ago with my stock injectors, got them replaced with accel 23lbs injectors (did burn a new prom with correct inj. constant for that...), car runned for some days, problem got back, then yesterday I changed to brand new Ford EV1 19lbs injectors, so they are brand new the one in the car and the logfiles in this thread is with the new Ford injectors..

and now its hard to start to, as you may have heard on the soundfiles, and the rpm gauge get really strange signals as shown in log 3 (ANYH23) the car died because of the strange rpm signal as shown in TTS Datamaster..

 

i'd shoot my self by now.. but before you do that. what about the coolant temp sensor, if thats bad it will stay in open loop. did not see that on your post

 

Forgot about the IAT sensor,, also new since yesterday.
No havent changed the CTS sensor, but it reads good engine temps, the temp seems normal in all logfiles and on the gauge inside the car..

The car goes into closed loop you see that in the logfiles. have you checked them ?

The car runs much better in open loop. sometimes bad there to but the car always runs bad in closed loop at idle... the worst is when I have any gear in and holding brake, rpm could drop really low always like the engine suficates it self... and when AC is on and engaging when in D and holding brake it really shakes in the whole car... enoying..

Yeah I have thrown alot of $$$ at it and still every problem is still there, knock retard, shaking, hard to start, strange signal from distributor...


EDIT: 2 screens from ANYH_23 with the bad signal from distributor, look how the rpm signal jumps up and down





This strange signal came later on to, when the car died... the rpm jump signal was even higher that time and it almost didnt start as explained in the "big post" with all the logfiles and soundfiles

 

done some work today to

checked initial timing : 12 Wacko set it back to 6 BTDC
checked minimum air, seemed low car could not run without me giving throttle, set it so it jumps between ~525-575 rpm and then set the TPS to 0.55V

Car seems to run little better now, or much better, not so much shaking, its still there but not as much, its going rich on some places and lean on some places, they say that the ford injectors are not made to go above 39psi (they dont like it) im running 44psi (without vacuum) maybe ill get them changed to Bosch III from FIC.. will see how this turns out...


The strange rpm signal is still there when the car is hot and Im about to start so something is wrong there, have contacted MSD about that and we will see what they do about it...

Also when I where idling in the garage and when I put i in R and was holding the brake I got a Speed signal to TTs datamaster that I was going 663km/h... how did that happen , never seen it before, and it went away and didnt show again.. logged aot today 1hour 20minutes of logs, will upload them later today so you guys could check em out to..



EDIT : at the bottom of this page : http://theking.joakimweb.se/z28/tts.htm
I got 4 logs from today with some info , password is : irocztts
check them out and tell me what you think about it..

 

the spark plug wires on right??? firing order 1 8 4 3 6 5 7 2 ........

 

I could not read this whole thread, the idea I got was that the injector constant being changed from 19.15 to 20.something is causing the engine to run better or worse. Thats not right!. Changing the fuel constant like that will only change the BLM value from maybe 121 to 119: it will have no effect on the running of the engine or fuel mileage.

Go back to basics and do the IAC & TPS adjustment and the idle RPM adjustment; both are in the Technical Article section on the home page.

Also, if the engine has alot of KR, then run higher test gas or take some timing out of it.

And also, look for a short, the RPM should not bounce around like that.
It could be something very simple, like a burned thru spark wire. While it is dark, start up the engine and watch for sparks in the engine bay. For the most part, you can not see a spark in the day time. This happened to me tears ago.

 

Yes they are installed correctly, checked that many times.

 

Yeah but as you may see in the logfiles from 22 June Im running BLM 100 sometimes wich is real rich and my AFR gauge stays on the rich side when this happens, and sometimes it reads BLM 148 wich is lean... This dosent feel good, it should be as close to 128 as possible to get a good mixture..

Also these ford injectors are made for 39 PSI pressure, im running 44 as stock on our cars, therefore it will be bigger change of BLM when changing the inj. constant little..


I have cleaned out the IAC passages in the throttlebody as shown below :

I set the minimum air to : ~550rpm (without IAC connected and hot engine in Closed Loop)

After that I adjusted the tps to : 0.55V (it was 0.53 or 0.55 didnt go to 0.54) Its a new TPS and the voltage moving fine/steady up to WOT.

Yeah but a pretty much stock engine should not knock retard that much on light throttle... I use 98 octane didnt get any better from 95 octane that I used before, (we only have 95 and 98 octane in Sweden)

The last way out is to make some changes at the spark advance table but it should not be necessary on a almost stock car. (Check my sign for changes on the car)

Have checked all my grounds, have cleaned the connection just to make 100% sure on the grounds. The all measure good ohm values to when checked.

Brand new sparkplug wires (MSD 8.5 mm superconductor) Have checked them yesterday again just to make 100% sure, they are all fine and sitting good.
Have tested in the garage. Closed all lights and closed the doors to the garage , looked under the hood, no blue lights or anything around the sparkplugs. (that was my first thought to but njet, nothing there )

Thanks for all your input.

 

The king; Well, I'm not the smartest guy here, I'm just trying to give you some leads, maybe 1 in 20 will work out!

I would put the injector constant at 20.0 and leave it there forever. Something big is going on to change the BLM from 100 to 148, thats huge. Changing the injector constant by 1.x can NOT be rsponsible for that.

Have you checked the fuel pressure while you are driving around?
One time I thought that i had a fuel issue, so I connected up a fuel pressure gauge to the fuel rail, and ran it out onto the pass side wiper and taped it down with the gauge facing me. I even ran like this at the drag strip.

 

I really appreciate your help, dont wanna be a smartass with my post or anything just wanted you to know what ive done and so..

I will burn a new prom with the inj. constant at 20.0 and take a drive today and log and upload here, have you checked in the logfiles that I uploaded 22 June ?

And NO the 100 to 148 BLM is with the inj. constant 19.20 when running, if you check in this logfile : http://theking.joakimweb.se/z28/tech...-IACTPSadj.rar
Then you see when I drive off that the BLM goes down to 100 and 108 many times, and then later on the logfile its around 138 BLM (same prom, same logfile and no changes.)

logfile 2 : http://theking.joakimweb.se/z28/tech...08-ANYH-23.rar almost an hour long and some knock retards (alot) and some BLM 100 there to not much but still its there at the end... please check it out if you got the time, used Datamaster and the password to the rar file is : irocztts

Yeah I have 3 Gauges installed in my a-pillar.
Cobalt Fuel Pressure, Vacuum and A/F Ratio. So I keep track of fuelpressure all the time, also vacuum just to see when it pulling ~20inHG (on idle.)

 

First of all, what is all that black gunk inside your plenum? Is that oil?

How many miles did you say you have on this engine, it looks like you might have excessive blowby if thats oil.

To get the charcoal cannister, there should be two bolts that hold it down, two bolts down at the bottom of the cannister. They might be underneath but I cant remember.

Did you remove the distributor in the past two years? It sounds like your timing might be off. When you set the initial (static) timing, you are disconnecting the distributor wire by the blower motor right?

I am kind of leaning towards a big vacuum leak or timing related on this one, hard to say without actually being there to tweak the engine.

 

Really dont know, dosent smell oil, it smell fuel, pure fuel it smell..


27340miles (44000km)
Did a compressiontest and it was good. It turned out like this :


And its not taking any oil from me, the same level at the oil always..
And shouldnt a bad piston ring make a bad compression ? it would be noticable right ?


Have to check that, maybe a full canisterfilter can cause the black fuellish in the plenum ?


Yeah I changed my distributor this year to an MSD 8366, base timing is set to : 6 BTDC (without cable connected)

But if I have a big vacuum leak shouldnt I see that on my vacuum gauge then ? its holding stron at ~20inHG (right underneth the 20marking, its still not moving)

I could try some different SA table but its my stock prom it should work right ? thats the stranges thing.
But the strange thing is that car can run good sometimes, as soon as I give some throttle it runs good, steady rpm and everything, but when in D or R and holding brake it kinda wanna strangle itself sometimes.. you can hear that the engine wanna go below what it can do and then it goes up it compensates so it will not die.. but its enoying to have the rpm go up and down like that, it should be steady and spin like a kitten...

Have you looked at my big logfile anything ? at the end when the engine is hot/runningtemp and I have it in P the rpm is : 750-775 and spark adv : 23,9deg
When I put it in D the rpm goes down to : 475 (and thats when it do the "kinda missing" thing it shakes and) for ~1,5sec its that low and spark adv : 20deg
then the rpm goes up to : ~575-600 and wanders around that sometimes it timps down to 525rpm when holding brake and having it in D.

And the car runs much better in Open Loop than it does in Closed Loop when its runningtemp/hot.. thats a strange thing to. (new o2 sensor installed so its working right)

As you may see if you zoom in the logfiles the rpm wants to jump up and down I can feel anything while driving then its fine but its on the idle im irritated on it..


EDIT : Now I tried a prom with inj.constant 19.49 (as my stock prom) much less knock retard now, I also set the % enrich to 0 when the engine his hot that seemed to help aagainst the knock retard. and the BLM seems much better now..

2 logs from today : http://theking.joakimweb.se/z28/tts.htm
at the bottom at that page, password is : irocztts

also checked minimum air again today.

without IAC connected : 550rpm (+/-25rpm)
Without IAC connected : 450rpm (+/-25rpm) When in D

So minimum air is where it should be. Please check the logfiles and say what you guys think. also the strange distributor signal came when the engine was ~105deg C (had been idling in the garage and its hot outside to) then it came while driving, and its there when you about to start when its running temp to, soo it seems like the pickup and/or ignition module fails when they are hot ...

 

Yeah you know what, now that you mention it... do a search for a faulty fuel pressure regulator.

Actually, just pull the vacuum line going to the fuel pressure regulator and smell it. It should not have a heavy smell of fuel.

 

Ive changed the FPR , the stock one didnt smell or leak anything when i replaced it in march this year, Bought and Holley and installed, Have checked that one for leaks but its dry and seems to working fine.

Checked the canister today to, Seems like I cannot change the filter, its one piece (some models came like that) So if I wanna change it , I need to replace the hole canister

So its not the FPR either ..

Gotta get some answers from MSd to, dont like the distributor that vuts out when hot either.. its brand new to.. only 3 months...

 

Did you adjust your minimum air, and TPS? After I put my intake back together, my car wouldn't hold a steady idle, it would jump up and down alot. It seemed to do it worst from a cold start. I adjusted minimum air, and the TPS, and it idles smooth now. Here's a video of what it was doing before adjustment:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-hhEysp9HXY

I followed the instructions here:
https://www.thirdgen.org/tpimod2

Edit: just notice you already did that, I missed it the first time I read through.

It sort of sounds like it could be a vacuum leak too. I may have had a slight vacuum leak at the bottom throttle body plate (IAC passage). I put a little bit of RTV on the gasket to make sure, but I did that at the same time as the IAC/TPS adjustment - so I'm not sure if it was the problem or not. My plenum and runners were even dirtier than yours when I pulled them off, I used degreaser and a steam cleaner to clean them out.

Also, I see that you replaced your ECM, is it brand new, or did it come from another car? My original ECM was bad, as well as the second one I got from a junkyard car. I'm on my third one now, and it seems to be working finally. My original one would go straight to limp mode, but the second one would sort of work. Everything seemed okay, but I was getting odd TPS readings, like 1.3V @ WOT. If all else fails, I wouldn't rule out a bad ECM.

 

Yeah I used that manual I also cleaned out the IAC passages and the entire throttlebody (when I changed the injectors, I took the throttlebody apart and cleaned under where the IAC shall be, new gaskets and holding tight and no leaks. So its clean and minimum air is set





What can cause that gugg inside the runners and plenum then ?
It smelled alot of fuel so I had to go outside of the garage for a while..
Cleaned it out using engine cleaner, looks really good inside now. But still
where does it come from?!.. and what is it?!


Yeah I replaced the ECM with an used one, I dont like it because when I got it , it was all filled with this :


I cleaned that off so it looked good again, and put it in my car. I payed 233dollars for that one.. (I got screwed on it, I know......)
Was thinking of buying a new manufactured from tpiparts and send in this old one to get refunds for it. Then ill know that my ECM is 100% good..
But the car dosent get in limphome mode, it runs bad anyway..
Also I had a error code when I changed the ecm : 51 (prom error)
So mu stock memcal is not good (using the moates adapter against it. Seems like theres only the PROM thats broken not the whole thing.
And the reason I changed ECM was that it went in and out of C/L even installed a new o2 same problem, that problem when away with the new ECM.. (or old used one....)

 

The gunk inside the plenum and runners is dust and fuel, very normal.

I can't see the problem with the ECM pcb. If it had a coating on it and you cleaned it off, that was a mistake. It is common manufacturing practice to "clear coat" pcb's with a sealent to keep them dry in a moist environment.

 

Well, I know first hand how flaky the 165 ECM's can be. The one I've got that's working now came from a mid-80s S-10 blazer, with the 4cyl engine. It took some poking around in the junkyard, but other cars did come with the 165 ECM. See here for other cars the ECM could be pulled from, it might be worth trying another one:
https://www.thirdgen.org/ecminterchange

The PROM error does not necessarily mean a bad PROM, it could be a bad memcal socket on the ECM, or an internal ECM fault. Also, the second ECM I got did not go into limp mode - it seemed to work fine until I hooked up the laptop to it, and noticed the TPS sensor was reading way off. One common thing I noticed with both of my bad ECMs, is that they would work fine if I pressed down firmly on the memcal while running. I had to press hard enough to slightly bend the circuit board. This to me was a good indicator of a bad solder joint, or cracked/broken component somewhere.

 

Oki so the gunk isnt that bad then ?!

No I havent removed any of the protective sealing or anything, just jused warm water (not much) and some handsoap, so no chemicals or anything so the protective sealing is still on the ECM.
----------
Maybe ill buy one new manufactured and send in my old one. Then I know my ECM is good and that I got warranty on it.. But still all values seems pretty good in the logfiles right?! maybe ill try changing the CTS sensor to (just to make 100% sure that , that one works, got 1 new in the garage, also I try changing my thermostat to get a new one, to help it cool down little to) seems like it wanna go at high temps when idling in the middle of the city like ~105 deg Celcius. thats when the shaking is the worst..

Just to help the engine to cool down more... what do you think of that, havent changed the thermostat in 6years (and dont know if someone before me changed it)... and the CTS is easy to change to, just to make as said 100% sure that im getting the right readings.. good or bad idea ???

any other ideas of this problem ?
Could it be an bad EGR ?!

 

Wow what a read... did you installed the new FIC injectors?? did it fix your problem???also I heard the accel injectors have loud ticking noise, this could be the reason why its pulling timing out..

 

I changed injectors again, Accel and Ford Racing (denso) ones where crap,
I got Bosch III injectors from Jon at FIC, they solved all my problems.
The Accel dosent have a good spray pattern, and they where the old style (but I will never use accel again..and yes they sounds MUCH)

Ford Racing EV1 (denso ones) dont like pressure over 39.15 psi so they dont go with our cars becuase we have higher pressure.

I got in contact with Jon at FIC and i got Bosch III modified (same height as stock ones) and installed them, The car idles smootly and runs GREAT now..
Never got better injectors then those, and I tried 4 types now and these ones are the best.

Jon sells them for 169,95 and leaves 3 years warranty on them, flowmatched (flows exactly the same) and they have great spraypattern. So if you got injector problems, call Jon up and he will help you out!!

 

Thanks for posting your results. Im having some of the same issues, its not that bad of an idle but its not smooth. Seem to run smooth in open loop, close loop has a idle like its cammed in park, in gear its not that bad. Normal driving off idle is fine, but I do get a slight hesitation when it cold starting out.

I just replace the O2 sensor, no help, everything else checks out. I guess its a good idea to get rid of the multi techs anyway. I cal Jon and order a set.

 

Yeah call him up, He will help you out. Real nice guy
I got the Bosch III modified (direct fit) 22lbs/hr injectors.
Really good ones (as I told you before.)

Let me know how it turns out for ya.

heres a pic on the injectors I tested:

and the Bosch III kicked ***. So I recommend them anyday from FIC.

 

Jon's a great guy. His injectors are the best!

 

Really good guy!

 

i had that same prob for like a year lol i got pissed off and pulled a set of injectors out of a LT-1 and BAM! prob solved she runs her tail off lol