1987CamaroZ28

Hello birdy. Really good question. Yes, the stock 305 heads are 58cc, and yes, the TF heads I've ordered are said to be 56cc. When you consider the TF increased runner volume, better flow characteristics, larger valves, and the heads being aluminum... those improvements mitigate my concerns of having slightly smaller combustion chambers. If the compression does in fact rise due to the smaller combustion chambers, it may be a couple tenths. There aren't many heads out there that are well suited for the 305. I would have been more satisfied if the Trick Flows were 58cc however, but I think I'll be fine.

85birdy

So if I were to get these for my 305 along with cam, usual bolt-ons and such they would be good aswell right?

flaming-ford

iTrader: (7)

very kool build i'm sticking with you but, your tune is going to be massively off.... your definetly going to run out of flow with your maf once you start revving, plus your injectors won't supply enough they will go static. I'm sure you have taken this in to consideration though, if not your dyno tuner down the road will enlighten you. G/l and very kool going against the norm.

anyways i'm about to mildly build my 305 much more mild than you..... crane 2032 ported heads and intake, every bolt on, so on...... i'm kinda curious as to what you think about those trickflow heads, do you have a link to where you bought them? Ever saw the gmpp 113 casting to kind of compare?

Sorry a lot of ?s i know its just as you said earlier in your thread, there isnt much you can swap to in terms of aluminum for a 305..... i've looked in to 113s which sound like a good head for the price but, as you said you lose egr compatibility plus the springs and such would need replaced for what i'm going with. I just don't know much at all about the trickflows as opposed to the zz4 heads, i do know 1 thing i'll bet the 113s are a good bit cheaper.

1987CamaroZ28

I absolutely think these heads would be an improvement over any 305 stock head for you. Just be careful when you think 'the usual' bolt ons. There is an infinate combination of combinations out there. I would suggest you contact Comp Cams (or your preferred cam manufactuerer) and ask what cam they would suggest based on your goals. Do you have a TPI, TBI, or carb setup? There are a bunch of 305 builds out there, that has been tested by Hot Rod Mag, Chevy High Performance, etc. You'll need to determine what rpm range you'll want to be within. For the TPI, if you have stock or near stock intake components (plenum, runners, base, injector volume) i suggest keeping your rpm range under 5k, that's how the TPI was designed, to be a torque beast. There are many alternative intake components that have been tested and prooven to perform very well above the stock rpm range. Have you modified anything yet? First come up with your goal and then it will be more straight forward on what you should do.

85birdy

Well my original plans were to get these trick flow heads, i havent decided on cam though. Edelbrock high flow TPI base with SLP runners and port matched plenum, custom K&N intake and hooker shorty headers. and then research on making a custom prom so everyhing will be in tune. but im not very experienced in cam choosing so i dont know what would go well with this, i will probably call COMP cams and ask what they think. also would this setup need bigger injectors you think?

I would like a street/strip cam not to wild to stall at the red light but one that would still give me nice power, like a ''medium'' cam

also I dont know witch rockers to get 1.5 - 1.6 thats depending on cam choice and lift i guess

David 91RS/Z28

Sounds like your setup is coming along nicely! Nothing wrong with building something out of the norm. I went down that road with my old 305 and I had fun with it. Shoot, 12.80's 109+mph was my best!! Just couldn't resist building something bigger though! Now I'm plus 50 cubes.

Good move on the heads and camshaft! The combo should make more power being the CC cam has less valve overlap and the TF heads flow more vs the ZZ4 cam/head combo. I would have went aftermarket base, but a ported stocker will do well. Keep posting your progress and any more pics that you have!

1987CamaroZ28

For a normally aspirated 305, i'm not certain if bottom end would be lost, if you're going with the Edel base, as well as the other mods you mentioned. I do know that fully porting the plenum, port matching the runners to plenum, runnders to intake base, and base runners to intake runners helps out a lot. I would call TPIS and ask them if they would suggested using their "Big Mouth" base on a n/a 305. Say "big mouth" because they won't care to help you if you're not planning on using their products. Their big mouth intake base is the same as the Accel base. Contact Comp Cams tech line to have them suggest a computerized cam that will take advantage of your intake and exhaust upgrades- i would suggest staying within the 1,200 -5,100 rpm range. Contact Ed Wright at Fast Chips, to talk through your mods, I'm sure he has a program on file that will match well with what you're planning. I would not suggest using bigger injectors, but I would suggest you get an adjustable fuel pressure regulator, for tuning. you'll want to bump up the pressure slightly. There's lots of information on fuel pressure here. Another great resource for learning about the effects fuel pressure is well defined within the "Insider Secrets" TPIS book. Not sure if that's the exact name, it's been a long time.
----------
Thanks, I will post updated pics once I get my next shipment of parts. I've run into some cash issues, so that threw a curve into the plan. But, I will see it through, I'm ordering the pushrods today, and will get the intake base on in the next few days.

1987CamaroZ28

Hi there. I'm not concerned about running out of flow. I'm keeping the rpm range same as stock, and the components I will be using will be well suited up to 5k.
I'm going with bigger Ford Racing injectors. you are right, the stock 19 pound injector would go static under the demand of boost.
I don't have hard fact numbers to back up the Trick Flow heads, but I'd be willing to bet they would do much better than stock, and the same if not better than the 113 heads. The reason i went with Trick Flow is because they are more bolt on friendly (retain the EGR), the bolt patterns will accept both base intake patterns (pre and post 87), you can choose from three different valve springs depending on the lift of you cammer, and the cost was not much different new. I wasn't interested in buy used 113 heads and then having them rebuilt... brought the cost up near new. I couldn't find used 113 heads for a reasonable price. Check around on this site, as far as comparing the 113 heads, and trick flow. Here's a link to the heads.
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku

305sbc

iTrader: (3)

I can say from experience that the larger intake base will not harm the bottom end power on a 305 engine as long as you still use the long runner length.
LPE makes a hydraulic roller specifically for a 305 TPI - part # 74216.
It's not specifically made for boost though.

1987CamaroZ28

Thanks for the follow up.
Yes, there are a handful of companies that offer cams designed for the 305/350 TPI. I suggested Comp Cams because of their size and expertise. They have many cam grinds for the TPI, and the staff to answer your questions.
Yep, I'm all set with my cam. I was addressing some of Birdie's questions.

Thanks.

1987CamaroZ28

Thanks for the follow up.
Yes, there are a handful of companies that offer cams designed for the 305/350 TPI. I suggested Comp Cams because of their size and expertise. They have many cam grinds for the TPI, and the staff to answer your questions.
Yep, I'm all set with my cam. I was addressing some of Birdie's questions.

Thanks.

travishenry

Is there any way you can post pics of your build. It would be kinda cool to see.

85birdy

[quote=1987CamaroZ28;4024914]For a normally aspirated 305, i'm not certain if bottom end would be lost, if you're going with the Edel base, as well as the other mods you mentioned. I do know that fully porting the plenum, port matching the runners to plenum, runnders to intake base, and base runners to intake runners helps out a lot. I would call TPIS and ask them if they would suggested using their "Big Mouth" base on a n/a 305. Say "big mouth" because they won't care to help you if you're not planning on using their products. Their big mouth intake base is the same as the Accel base. Contact Comp Cams tech line to have them suggest a computerized cam that will take advantage of your intake and exhaust upgrades- i would suggest staying within the 1,200 -5,100 rpm range. Contact Ed Wright at Fast Chips, to talk through your mods, I'm sure he has a program on file that will match well with what you're planning. I would not suggest using bigger injectors, but I would suggest you get an adjustable fuel pressure regulator, for tuning. you'll want to bump up the pressure slightly. There's lots of information on fuel pressure here. Another great resource for learning about the effects fuel pressure is well defined within the "Insider Secrets" TPIS book. Not sure if that's the exact name, it's been a long time.
----------

Thanks alot for the info, also um will these heads be ok with the stock 305 pistons? even if i get a higher lift cam the bigger valves and clearance wont hit the pistons?

1987CamaroZ28

Hey man. Go to the previous page, I posted a bunch of pics.

FUNIROC

iTrader: (4)

What pushrods did you use? Were they stock length? Did you run into any problems with the valve to piston clearance?

1987CamaroZ28

Good question. Many people don't really check their pushrod length when changing a cam or rocker ratio. When making a cam change, it's always a good idea to check how this affects your valve train wear. If the push rods are too long or too short, you can prematurely wear your valveguides. I checked the wear patterns using the stock pushrods to determine if i would need to go shorter, longer, or could stay at stock length. I came up with some strange valve stem wear patterns. They were not consistent which was bothersome. This could be due to some of the lifters being 'primed' or 'pumped up' and others not. Granted, you do have a bit of leeway when using hydraulic lifters and not solid lifters. The stock pushrod legnth of 7.250 seems to be a good length for half of the valves. So, i picked up an adjustable pushrod, to determine the lenghth i would need for the others. Unfortunately, this adjustable until doesn't want to fit very well through the guilde plates, and throws off my setting when trying to remove it. I went with the recommended roller rockers (that are not be self aligning) which called for using the supplied guide plates, and require the use of hardened pushrods. For the piston to valve clearance, i bolted the heads down with modeling clay placed over and around the piston valve reliefs. I turned the engine over twice and inspected the clay. I did not see any signs of contact. I'm hoping i will not run into any issues there. There's a long answer for you.

305sbc

iTrader: (3)

You have to use a set of the weak checking springs and the lifters need to be filled with oil. If you use regular valvesprings they will only work for about one revolution of the engine and then the lifter plungers will start collapsing giving you inconsistent measurements.
This holds true for checking piston to valve clearances too.

FUNIROC

iTrader: (4)

So can you give me more detailed instruction on how this is done? Like do you need to do them all, one side, or one intake exhaust. Can this be done by anyone or should a shop do this?

1987CamaroZ28
Do you know what compression you have with the setup you are running? What fuel will you be using?

1987CamaroZ28

Thanks very much for sharing. I wonder how much forgiveness the hydraulic lifters provide. There's no way I'm going to swap the springs out of the new heads to check the length. This damn push rod length stuff has stopped my project in it's tracks (well, that and a bunch of other things!). I wish there was a more straight forward way of determining the correct pushrod length.

watajob

iTrader: (29)

Here's the flow numbers I got some time back straight from Trickflow tech support:

intake exhaust

.100 61 53
.200 127 105
.300 180 142
.400 216 160
.500 242 172
.600 242 180

I've been lurking, watching this with great interest as I am going to do something very similar to my wee oh five, (against everyone's advice!), though I'm going real easy on the cam as I am looking for low end torque "point and shoot" on the street rather than track times and have no future plans for boost.

Also, Comp Cams makes a pushrod length checker that is supposedly very easy to use: http://store.summitracing.com/partde...1&autoview=sku

And, maybe this article might help: http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles...gth/index.html

305sbc

iTrader: (3)

http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku

http://store.summitracing.com/partde...1&autoview=sku

http://store.summitracing.com/partde...9&autoview=sku

http://www.carcraft.com/howto/116_07...nce/index.html


http://www.compcams.com/information/Products/Pushrods/


Doing the checks on one cylinder/valve-pair is usually enough, but it never hurts to be more thorough.

Don't underestimate the importance of these checks. The lifters will provide no forgiveness. The best thing you could do there is to run an extremely small amount of preload. Running with incorrect valvetrain geometry will wear out the valveguides very quickly which will then degrade the valvejob.

The tools to do this are cheap. Anyone can do it.
The checking springs are a must with hydraulic lifters. Removing and reinstalling a pair of springs while on the engine isn't all that hard. Just prevent the keepers from falling down into the engine and have the piston at TDC when removing the springs.

1987CamaroZ28

Thanks so much for the helpful information and references. I'm going to have to bite the bullet, and just get it done the right way.

FUNIROC

iTrader: (4)

THANKS!!!! 305SBC

Now to save up the cash to get the TRICK FLOW heads.

This looks like what I am going to use. So far looks like the best way to go and stay Somg Compliant.

COMP Cams 08-501-8
Trick Flow Specialties TFS-30300006
COMP Cams 2136 Double roller timing set
COMP Cams 12140 Distributor Gear
AS&M Runners
HI Flow Intake Base
Standard rebuild on lower end

FUNIROC

iTrader: (4)

I found out some more info on the Piston to Valve clearance.

I went to Comp Cams site and they recommend using a solid lifter to check the proper Piston to Valve clearance as the hydraulic lifter will leak down if it has pressure applied to it. So you will not have an accurate reading once the valve hits the clay due to lifter leak down.

You should also be able to use the same lifter to check the pushrod length as well. That way you wont need to swap out valve springs.

I have not found out how to find the solid lifter to match the hydraulic lifter. I am thinking you can talk to any company that sells lifters and find one that way. Comp Cams sells them just have not talked to them about the proper lifter to use.

305sbc

iTrader: (3)

You can make a solid lifter by disassembling it and putting some hardening epoxy inside, but a solid lifter cannot take into account whatever amount of preload you plan on using unless you lock the lifter in that position when you're making it solid.

oxrabidus

Im gonna do something like this... i have a 305 out of a 97 chevy truck with vortec '520 heads... i was gonna use the vortec heads, but i changed my mind and decided im gonna use trickflow 175cc heads port them put lightweight lt4 valves on it, a comp cams solid roller cam (230/236@.05) a set of longtubes, a t56 with a skulte crossmember and custom TRUE dual exhaust, how im gonna do it, i dont know yet, but im gonna do it! yeah im gonna go all out on the 305...
if the 305 does turn out to suck, ill just build a 302 or 327 and put it in with the same heads and stuff...

1987CamaroZ28

cool build plans, good luck with that.
My build update is only that i finished porting the plenum a little more, and the base intake and plenum are getting ceramically coated. order new head gaskets and hardered pushrods tonight. Cashflow has been an issue and slowing the progress quite a bit.

86T/A_Ram_Air

looks like a cool build man......good luck

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Nice pics... I'll be watching to see where this goes.

Not really related to the engine stuff here, but did you totally disassemble the thing and have the under body painted?

1987CamaroZ28

Hey man. Yes, I completely dissembled everything and painted it myself.

1987CamaroZ28

Couple recent pics of the plenum being cleaned up, and the finished based intake after being ceramic coated.

IrocTheZ28

Great pics! I have been following your build as well. Last winter I stripped one of the thermostat bolts and decided to remove the entire '88 intake and slap in a complete '89 TPI setup. While I know about the absence of the 9th injector in the '89 intake manifold I have the ECM and injectors and harness plus plenum and runners in a box just waiting to replace my original setup. Gotta love the 305!

Right now I'm down to removing the external coil and see what's up with the distributors rotor orientation so I can pop the intake off.

My goal is to restart the 305 and get smog compliant headers and choose a catback. So many upgrades to go pending bank account funds.

Below are pics of my progress in work. Question I have is what's the best way to clean and shine up these dirty intake manifolds and associated parts? I was thinking of a few gallons of Coca Cola in a tub...

Labeling injector wires


'89 intake top end ready to assemble together


5 minutes ago, resuming project 305

1987CamaroZ28

Hey, i'm glad you posted up. That's great. My IROC has the m ullet tops and garnet paint as well
I'll be posting more pics. Thanks for sharing! Good luck with your project.

1987CamaroZ28

it's a great question really. It's not easy to clean everything without wearing it. lots of degreaser for the parts that you plan to refinish on your own... such as the fuel rails, runners, valve covers, etc) for things such as the intake, i would suggest having it soda blasted and ceramic coated. I've ruined a lot of clothes.

IrocTheZ28

I like the idea of soda blasting and curious about ceramic coating. Where in CT does one take the intake and associated parts to have a nice clean finish?

I possess a Husky Air Compressor Tank. Stands upright with small tires. 155 max psi. 1.5 running horsepower. Blows 4.0 cfm @ 90 psi / 6.0 cfm @ 40 psi.

I'd like to ruin some clothes to save money. I'm interested in either route.

The soda blasting idea sounds neat... for a semi dirty engine bay that needs freshening up. I could abuse this tool !

3rdGenFreak1227

Hey sweet I finally found fellow 305er's!!!!! I just bought an 87 Z28 305 TPI, Automatic (only $600 and ran great!!) car about 3 months ago and am planning on doing a t5 swap and some motor mods to see what kind of power I can get out of her...I've been down the 350 road and built a couple of carbed f-bodies and wanna do something different now...looking to build a great fun street car that would hold its own at the track...maybe 300hp or so if possible...I already have an EBL flash board installed in the ECU which I swapped out for a speed density '7727 and have been buried in tuning books getting up to speed on all that...so any ideas for a N/A 305 TPI build would be much appreciated...hope all is well guys your builds seem to be going great! Thanks fellas hope to hear from you soon!

1987CamaroZ28

Sorry it took me a bit to get back to you. The place is in E Hartford called Central Connecticut Coatings Blasting on 52 Village Street. They do a good job. There are lots of places that do powder and ceremic.

Competitive Edge Coatings

- competitiveedgecoatings.com - (860) 882-0762 - More
B.Blasting Techniques Inc

- www.blastingtechniques.com - (860) 528-4717 - More
C.Wethersfield Sandblasting Co

- maps.google.com - (860) 721-9435 - More
D.Anderson Specialty Co

- maps.google.com - (860) 953-6630 - More
E.Aqua Blasting Corporation

- www.aquablasting.com - (860) 242-8855 - More
F.Wethersfield Sandbalasting

- maps.google.com - (860) 721-9435 - More
G.Gresh Painting

- maps.google.com - (860) 561-1651 - More
H.Blastech Overhaul & Repair

- www.blastechusa.com - (860) 243-8811 - More
I.Adco Services Inc

- www.adco2000.com - (860) 243-8329 - More
J.Auto Strip Tech

- maps.google.com - (860) 243-0692 - More

1987CamaroZ28

Here are a few more pics of some recent work..

1987CamaroZ28

couple more

1987CamaroZ28

i wanted to follow up with a suggestion on cleaning up your parts. Throttle body cleaner does wonders! make sure you have a fresh source of air and wear gloves. use blue magic metal polish on the runners, fuel rails, etc.. good luck.

New2Chevy

iTrader: (11)

The only thing I like from Edelbrock are their intake manifolds. They can keep their carbs, headers, and heads, for that matter.

New2Chevy

iTrader: (11)

I have an idea for your 305...it's not the "ultimate" engine, no doubt, but you'll lay waste to any stock 350 tpi and even some nicely modded ones, if you build it smart. So many guys just go with the "norm" or the "flow" and say ditch the 305. That's fine, but I say "Horsepower is horsepower is horsepower." Like any engine, the darn 305 CAN be built to be a very formidable street engine, with the right combo of parts. It's a matter of matching stuff up for the displacement (like on any other engine). I've done a ton of research on this, believe me, and I will continue to do so. If you build your 305 properly, it'll have the same or more power than MANY modded 350 tpis. The bigger problem than displacement choice is that some guys don't mod their 350s properly, and they don't get them running to their full potential, with the mods they put on, so it really is a waste of money. Do this build with your 305, and guys will think you have a bad*** 350 in your car, and it'll put a smile on your face, and you will feel like your money is well spent. Probably the best thing to do, if you're short on cash and cannot build an entire engine right now, is this: get the following parts--that you can eventually transfer to a 350 block if you decide to go with more cubes, so, if you want more power, it's available to you (and you don't have to buy new parts again). Buy the assembled vortec style heads from Enginequest or RHS (RHS heads flow better and cost about 100 bucks more than the eq's, but I bet they're cheaper than Trick Flows) (1.94/1.50 valves--Manley Pros are nice valves)-180cc runners-64cc cc-have them milled down for a final comb. chamber volume of 58cc for higher compression--I'd do 9.8:1 cr, but it's your choice)-no, you don't need the beehive springs put on them, but they wouldn't hinder anything and would help your vt a little at higher rpms, an aftermarket fuel injection system that is VORTEC specific for manifold fitment or just stick with the stock tpi and mount it atop a new VORTEC style manifold (Edelbrock has one) if you're not worried that the stock tpi won't allow your cam to max out, and a comp cam or pretty much any cam with 112 to 115 degree lobe separation (the closer it is to 115, the easier it is to tune and keep running happy with tpi, trust me) and around 224/230 duration and .477/.480 lift or near .5 lift (I'd go ahead and spring for new pushrods and lifters, too, since you'll have the top unassembled). I prefer Crower lifters over Comp, but Comp would work OK. You'll probably want 26 lb. injectors, too. You can get a chip burned for these simple mods that will get you close to optimal running conditions, and you will make around 350+ fwhp, depending on your fuel setup and if the people doing your custom tune know what they are doing-make sure you find someone who does know what they're doing. You will really notice a change in power after 3500 rpm hits. This is when the little 305 really starts to enjoy gobbling up the air and fuel. Or you can go carbureted (then do 110 lsa on your cam, with the same lift as mentioned above, a 650cfm carb (try a Speed Demon carb), and an Edelbrock rpm airgap manifold for VORTEC heads), but then you'll have a few headaches, swapping from tpi to carb. You can get 150+ horsepower added, for around $2500 (not too shabby), and this includes the cost of some decent headers, to let the engine breathe. A 2000+ stall converter would help a lot, too, assuming you have an auto tranny (which will have to have a switch modded to lock if swapping to carb, if you want it to lock up). In my opinion, it's never a waste of time or money to add horsepower to ANY engine, ESPECIALLY the 305, since the parts can be used in a 350, if a guy ever wants to go that route.

musclecar70sfan

iTrader: (1)

Hey man, I was searching for and 305 TPI build threads and lo and behold I found this one. I see that it hasn't been active for about 5 months now but I was wondering how far you got into your 305 build and if maybe you ran any dyno pulls so far. I'm from CT as well and I have a 91 Trans Am convertible with the 305 TPI engine. For now I'm just cleaning the car up and restoring it but once that's done, I'd like to modify my 305 as well. Probably not to the extent that you're going to but something like intakes, plenums, cams, etc. Thanks!

1987CamaroZ28

Hey there. I'm glad you found this thread. Actually, I had done more work on the build since my last post, but it's been slow going because of everything going on in my life. It's been really crazy. I will post some new pics. I have yet to get new injectors, fuel lines, a couple sensors, and hoses. It's getting very close. Here are some pics.

1987CamaroZ28

couple pics...

gasket matching on the intake side, polished exhaust runners, and the engine sitting in the car.
gasketmatching.doc

1987CamaroZ28

polishedexhaust.doc

engine.doc

musclecar70sfan

iTrader: (1)

That's cool, I only got the picture of what seem to be the intake ports with the masking tape around them. Are you running an aftermarket intake/plenum/TB or something?

EDIT: oh nevermind you edited your post lol. But I'm still wondering about that intake...

SDalt404

iTrader: (4)

I'm following this thread to. I am curious to see what kind of power these heads make!

morepowerjoe

Subscribed! Cool build.

I might be in the same boat. I was gonna build a 350, but pulled apart my old 91 305 with 130k, and it looks great inside. I just have to figure out why it didn't have any compression.

1987CamaroZ28

Here is a quick update with pics... I've got the engine back together and installed. Just need to get a few more things buttoned up and the exhuast bolted in..right now that's at the ceramic coating place.