1987CamaroZ28

Yep, I'm doing it. Why you ask, because I like the idea of the underdog, and maybe some bragging rights, and because I can. Look guys, i know the whole "no replacement for displacement" stuff addage, but the displacement doesn't concern me with this project. My Z28 came with the 305, and I'm sticking with it. The little engine is sitting on an engine stand. I've inspected the 20+ year old with 74k miles on it.... the tollerances are in check, crank end play, lifters are in good shape, overall bottom end looking good. I'm going to build this little mother up without any machining to see what she can do. My build was initially going to be a Golen 383 TPI or ZZ4 TPI build. But...things change, and I've changed my mind again!

I'm actually looking for feedback. Okay, let me also say the Willie has also inspired me (his approach was obviously a bit different). My goal is to take a used gen I short block and see what it'll do. I'm looking for a streetable weekend warrior, that will hold it's own on the street.
Here's what i have in mind:

• Stock bottom end
• re-use stock roller lifters (they check out nicely)
• Comp Cam (.210in 220ex dur and 500/510 lift @50 with 114 LSA)
• Trick Flow 175cc Street Heads polished exhaust and combustion chambers)
• 1.5 Roller rockers
• Ported base intake (will do myself)
• AS&M Runners (bite the bullet)
• Ported Plenum (already done)
• 52mm TB
• MAF mods (already done)
• a/c delete
• MSD 6AL (already have)
• AFPR (already have)
• Edel TES 1 5/8 (already have)
• Random Cat (already have)
• Flowmaster (already have)
• ATI Intercooled Procharger 1DSC probably July '10
• Serpentine belt drive set up

I believe superchargers generally likes a bit more on the exhaust cam side. Please make suggestions, recommendations, observations, etc please. I'm not new to the TPI world, or the aftermarket arena, but I'm certainly not an expert by any stretch.

I've already re-done the entire chassis and suspension. Here's the slide show on You Tube: (even removed the blower/heater core/ assembly and sealed up the firewall) - why? man, i don't know! I got so sick of trying to get around all the crap in the engine compartment, and I'll just wear a sweater!..or get one of those spray bottles with a fan on it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25stmdcnuNw
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APACHE JOHN

I was thinking of something similar with vortech heads milled .045, a ramjet intake and hooker long tubes......no blower. good luck either way. Oh if you don't already have the TES headers buy something different.

1987CamaroZ28

AJ- Really? What in your opinion is not so great about the Edel TES headers? I do have them already, but would be interested in hearing which ones would be suggested and why. Thanks for the feedback!

APACHE JOHN

Do a search on the Edelbrock headers......you won't find much positive.

GTA90X

iTrader: (2)

If you have your mind made up regarding the ZZ4 cam, I have an unused one from a crate motor. I picked it up a couple weeks ago from another TGO member. I've deicided to use a cam with a little less lift so that I don't have to modify my stock heads right now. PM me if you're interestred.

1987CamaroZ28

Thanks bro, that's a possibility. I called comp cams today to speak with their tech staff. The person I spoke with really thought I should go with the
part #08-304-8 (266HR-14) in/210 220/ex dur and 500/510 lift @50 with LSA 114.
Focused operating range 1400-5400rpm. Comp Cams said superchargers like more lobe seperation. I'll have to take their word for it, they are the experts.

I'm seeing this cam from $235 - $250.

Any comments?

the blur

I like the 305 idea. call it "green"

Saigon_Bob

iTrader: (2)

Good choice on the l98 heads they will drop your overall CR so if you stick with them definately boost it.

Boosted apps like less overlap just like comp cams said to you. ( to retain boost ) IMO an off the shelf grind might work ok but i prefer to call the company ( i used Cam Motion. tell em the specs and they will get you a great running cam.

As far as the cleaning up the firewall.... I pulled my HVAC in its entirety and that was a mistake. I could live without a/c (yea right) but in the winter the car never warms up.. its pretty brutal. And having a fan to move air around is a big thing

1987CamaroZ28

Thanks so much for the feedback. Very good points, even about being able to at least move the air around in the cabin. This will just be used for the summer, and nice days. I do have t-tops (M*LLET sounding for sure) but you are right, there will ALWAYS be a situation where i'll be kicking myself where I could really use the fan or a/c. It was certainly a sacrifice to do away with all of the plumbing associated with the a/c , heater, etc. I was getting so upset trying to manuver within the engine compartment. Spark plugs checking/replacing, installing headers, etc..
Well, i did it and will have to live with it. I think that will hurt me when the day comes to sell the car. live and learn.

Thanks for the information on the cams. Comp also said supercharging apps also like more seperation, or less overlap like you said. I'll try cam motion.

Saigon_Bob

iTrader: (2)

Yea i thought the same way. I said oh FL doesnt get too cold in the winter. ( wrong )

I said oh my A/C doesn't work anyways and I have T-Tops... ( ok but im more mature now and hate sweating in my DD )

And when it rains the damn car is a sauna and the windows fog up.

That being said, to install my autometer gauge pod I made I had to cut out the ducting in the dash so I dont have the option. The car will eventually be a limited use car and ill buy another thirdgen WITH a/c and stab an LSx motor in it and leave it stock for awesome drivability and gas milage.







hows that for firewall usage!

1987CamaroZ28

dood, love the Napa sign. What was the motivation behind that?!

Saigon_Bob

iTrader: (2)

Im very DIY with what you have type of person.

I pulled the A/C stuff and we had that NAPA sign sitting around in the shop under some crap, it had previously been used for strips of metal so i figured why not.

I would have rather mounted it right side up but the cuts fit perfectly like that.


I should pull the carpet and take pics. When i converted to 5spd i cut the whole a little to big so the NAPA sign donated there too. And then i used a MR Gasket rubber shift boot to seal the deal ( the Advanced Autoparts one, i think its meant for a generic auto shifter )

86Z

iTrader: (4)

i know you don't like hearing swap out the 305 for a 350, if i could do it over again, i would have done the 383.

1987CamaroZ28

It's cool. Yeah, I think i'm just going to see what this 305 can do. I'm really not planning on PUTTING a lot into the 305.. an oil pump, cam, gaskets.. if she doesn't hold up, i'll go w/ a 350. Thanks for the feedback. Are you power figures based on rwhp?

Gunner823

iTrader: (2)

Hey man...I have that exact cam recommended to you from comp cams, 08-304-8. It was in my motor when it was supercharged and worked great. It has maybe 8k miles on it, I will have it rechecked but when it was pulled my engine assembler said it was in great shape (and he's also one of my best friends, so I trust him). If you are interested, send me a PM. I have absolutely no use for it and will sell it cheap.

gcpoland

iTrader: (18)

I built pretty much what you are doing. My heads had been ported and matched(113 aluminum), running flat top pistons. Holley stealth ram with a Commander 950 ECM with fine tuning on dyno. Vortech supercharger running 10 lbs boost. 442.5 hp@6200rpm. Fun little motor to play with.

1987CamaroZ28

Man, that's a huge coincidence! (sp). yes, i very well may be interested. Is there any chance you can tell me why you no longer need that cam anymore?

8T9 BANDIT

wow, im luving this thread. im also building my lb9, i also have a procharger p-1sc, not yet installed. cars probably going to shop this week. im still undecided if i should put aluminum heads on it or not? i was checking out the 56cc trick flows. and the summit cheapo heads. anyway, read my long annoying sig for my build.

Gunner823

iTrader: (2)

No longer need it because I'm not supercharged anymore, just naturally aspirated and went with a bit bigger cam

1987CamaroZ28

Cool, thanks. I'll let you know. I did sent you a PM.
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I'm just about to order an oil pan gasket, timing set, timing cover, oil pump, rear main seal. Any suggestions on which ones to go withh?

dwillis

iTrader: (6)

well not so crazy man...I'm going to do the same thing this winter...i have a tired old 305 in my 91 bird...if it was just any old car I would put a 350 in it,but been there done that......plus the car is a rare tpi 5-speed convertible and i wanna keep it as stock as possible for later on.........so good luck and keep us posted bro

1987CamaroZ28

Hey, thanks for the feedback bro. Oh, i was just saying crazy because I knew I would get a lot of comments about not using a 350, and then the fact that it has 72k miles on it. It was an attempt to basically talk smack about myself so people didn't feel the need to do that, and we could move on to the build. Haha. Anyway, i just pullled the cam last night, and went online to order new parts. I think i listed above the parts i'm ordering. I wanted to order a composite timing cover, like the one that comes with the ZZ4. I need to get a long water pump compatible cover, and it needs to clear a double-roller chain. i'm not having a ton of luck. I need to keep searching. I would think i could find information here. Dang, $30 just for the oil pan gasket. Should I bother changing the rear main seal, and a new oil pump?

1987CamaroZ28

man, you dropped some serious cash into this project. I wanted to know if the hp/tq numbers were at the wheels.

dwillis

iTrader: (6)

Yes change it...30 bucks may save you 300 later on if your oil pump goes out and you will be kicking yourself because you coulda checked the screen while you were replacing the rear seal.....plus it could start leaking at any point.a new seal is always a better seal...........
My philosophy is if your in there replace everything you can afford to or at least any major componets that could potentially cause problems down the line...like if i was pulling the oil pan I would go aead and replace the oil pump too,and also the rear seal,,and clean that baby up real good.we call it preventive maintenance...haha...good luck dude....I just wish my $h!t would idle right..lol

86Z

iTrader: (4)

yes those #'s were at the wheels, that was with the stock 8D programming, 30# injectors and an FMU, i've since switched to a smaller blower pulley, 42lb# injectors, no FMU, Code59, and Methanol injection, should make more power then that, gotta get it on the dyno.

QUICKCHICKEN

iTrader: (12)

iv got a built 305 in my 89 formula and i LOVE when people ask me whats in it and i tell em "you wouldnt believe me if i told ya".
it dosent sound like any 305 anyone has heard. .30 ,08-302-8 (480/480, 210/220,112) .20 head gasket, .08 shave on the head ,a lil port work, all the typical intake mods and hooker 2055 headers 3" exhaust all the way out thru edelbrock cat back. from what the engine/sales guys at work figure im at 10.41 comp.
havent gotten any good dyno # yet as im still tuning.

dwillis

iTrader: (6)

Wish there was a good place to get dyno numbers round us....

QUICKCHICKEN

iTrader: (12)

are you talking about up in Jackson or in general? there are 3 dynos in memphis. Extreame, Dynospeed and Specticle Solutions. if a shop with a dyno opened up in jax maaaaaaan they would roll in the cash, unfortunatly hte ricers would be the main supply of their funding.

dwillis

iTrader: (6)

yeah up here...well their is one dynomometer that I know of here in jackson..its in the tech center at the airport..and guess what....its collecting dust.they haven't used it for years..now that sux..and yeah ricers would wear it out....

1987CamaroZ28

Let me know if you guys know anyone that is selling zz4 L98 heads. I've been looking around for them. I've found some on ebay.. but i'm trying to be sure before buying a set. I know there's a risk that an emisions station may notice i'm not running an EGR with the L98 aluminum heads. Have any of you ever heard of Floo Tek 5.0 Aluminum Cylinder Heads? I'm even considering AFR heads.. but looks like their heads need to be taken down quite a bit to get the chamber sizes friendly with 305 cubes. I'm actually even interested in going up from 58cc, to lower the compression, since i'm going with a super charger setup.

1987CamaroZ28

I'm even having an issue knowing what to get for the oil pump. I can't find an entire unit (pump/pickup/screen) available. I can't even seem to find all of the parts I need that are compatible. I thought finding an oil pump would be easy. Any suggestions? Also, I looked at the Edelbrock performer heads, but they are only 56cc. With supercharging, i'm worried about the compression, and lack of filling into the cylinders. I looked at the Trick Flow heads, but they require changing the thread size for the sensors, and measuring for proper pushrod lengths. I guess either way, I'm going to have to get comfortable with this stuff. Getting the ZZ4 heads, will require me to get a pre-87 base intake, or possibly modify my base intake to line up with the intake bolt pattern of the L98 aluminum heads. Does anyone know if I can saftely elongate the intake bolt locations without ruining the intake base? Then there's the issue of not having an EGR. Man, are there any aluminum heads that will bolth right up, and retain all of the factory sensors with requiring some kind of custom work?

1987CamaroZ28

because things have been so crazy, i haven't had much time to work on this project. I'm ordering all the parts today. One thing I could use advice on, is I'm not sure if I should fire the engine up without the blower once I get it all back together. The comp cam 08-304-8 indicates it requires ECM tuning. Hopefully she'll run okay with this cam long enough for me to get everything checked out...work out the bugs and leaks..etc before setting the ATI blower up. Any suggestions? I'm thinking of not using the FMU , and going with the 59code 3 bin ...bigger injectors etc I probably said that wrong. Any suggestions would be appreciated!

1987CamaroZ28

Okay, i just ordered a bunch of parts from Summit. Here they are:
cam: CCA-08-304-8
oil pan gasket: FPP-1886
Timing cover gasket: FPP-2330
Rear Main: FPP-2919
Timing cover: MIL-65501
Oil Pump: SES-3-60-08-001
Timing Gear set: SLP-KT3-499SA3
Oil Pump gasket: SUM-111480
and some other bolt kits and odds/ends

Next, i'm looking for a decent set of ZZ4 heads.
after that, the engine is going back in the car...get it running, work out the bugs, switch over to the serpentine set up, and install the intercooled ATI procharger.

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

IF you REALLY want to make power out of a 305, do the following:

1st, Don't be too concerned about the heads. Just port match them to what ever intake you decide to use.

2nd, forge the crap out of the entire bottom end (crank, rods, dished pistons) etc..

Then call cam motion about a custom grind for 20 PSI.

Next, one single TURBO, maybe a 76 - 80 mm.

Use your shorty headers flipped backwards, fab up rest of piping and oiling.

If you stay TPI at this point, I recommend a FAST XFI setup. You'll need the wide-band tuning features.

If you get lazy, you don't have to run an intercooler. Just run a water/alky injection system (ALOT cheaper) and easier to setup.


etc. etc...

If you dont have the above in your budget, just leave it stock, upgrade injectors, tune your own PROM and run one junk yard turbo with a Vortec vaccum operated FMU (for fueling).

Either way, you'll be faster than what you are trying to do.

1987CamaroZ28

LOL! This is good! Thanks for the advice. There are so many options I could have chosen. I knew going into this, i would need to make a decision and stick with it. I was thinking to get a spare 350 L98 and build it up slowly once i get the 305 going. You are right there are many more ways to make the 305 more efficient. 20 psi sounds wild!
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Update........
Okay, the timing chain, timing cover/seal, oil pump, cam, lifters, and everything else I mentioned above has been installed. Now I need to find heaDS!

roachjuice

+ 1 on turbo. it's easier in my opinion. 305 turbo would be bad ***. i heart junkyards now since i own a turbo dodge now.

1987CamaroZ28

Another update...
I just received my Trick Flow heads (30300006 175 56cc aluminum), TFS roller rocker arms, head gaskets, and a set of ARP heads bolts. Geez, the bolts were $65 alone! I'm going to try and get everything installed by this weekend. Then, I'll start porting the stock intake base, and will send out another update. I gotta get my program workinig so i can post pics. More to come.

redliterunner

Just watch out for cam lift and valve size when using 350 heads, or you'll drive a valve right into the wall of that little 305 cylinder.

1987CamaroZ28

These Trick Flow heads have 1.94 in and 1.50 ex valves. They are specifically designed for the 305 AND you can get springs that accomidate up to .600 lift. These heads can certainly be used on the 350, but they more specifically designed for the 305, since the vaves and intake runners are smaller.
Thanks though, it is a concern us 305ers have to be aware of!

redliterunner

Sounds like you've got it covered then. Are you thinking about nitrous? I honestly think you could safely put 200hp on a stock 2 bolt sbc bottom end.

8T9 BANDIT

were do you get youre info? 350 heads? 200 shot?

1987CamaroZ28

I'm going with about 10 psi of boost via ATI. No NOS for me.

1987CamaroZ28

Finally adding some pics for you peeps to check out what I've been doing.
How about my firewall? Gives new meaning to A/C Delete.
And what cross member?
T/A 9 bolt girdle

1987CamaroZ28

1st is after installing new oil pump, rear main, timing gears, cover....
2nd is putting on the oil pan.
The 3rd one is jumping ahead after doing the head work and putting one of the heads on..

1987CamaroZ28

Here's a close up of the timing gear set. Close enough

1987CamaroZ28

The first one is the intake runner on the base intake. If you look closely, you might be able to see the scribed lines from the gasket matching. Second one is after hogging the intake entrance. I still need to pull out a little material a bit further inside.

1987CamaroZ28

Trick Flow heads right out of box.
Unpolished Exhaust Ports
Polished Exhaust Ports

1987CamaroZ28

1st Pic is gasket matching the intake runners on the head. They are pretty close.
2nd PiC is of the teeny weeny combustion chamber.
3rd is my best attempt at polishing the combustion chambers without removing the valves.

1987CamaroZ28

me other project!

85birdy

arent stock 305 heads like 58cc chambers?? why would you get 56cc and increase when your putting a supercharger? im only wondering cause i want to put these exact heads on my N/A 305 TPI