hey guys... since i have gotten a ford ranger, i can now take my time with my dream build for my trans am gta and take it off daily driver status..so its going to be my weekend car or nice day out crusing type car now.. i want this to be a pretty nicely built 350 tpi..my current forged 355 shortblock has about 24,000 miles on it since i rebuilt it, so its still fairly new.... Because of that, i dont plan on going any bigger than a 355 because i want my tpi to rev and i know with bigger cubes means less revs for the tpi and i definitely dont want that...

i want my car to pull nicely up to 5500-6000rpms... im not totally starting over but i want a nicely matched combo... i already have the FIRST intake system and shortblock...

my question is do you guys think that the hotcam and afr 180 heads are a good match for my 355 and a box stock FIRST intake... also could it pull to 5500-6000rpms with a vigilante 2800 stall converter added in, and with this entire combo could i achieve 350whp...

So heres what i want... i want to keep the same size engine that came factory in my car and i want to retain a stockish look while being able to acheive 1 horespower per cubic inch at the wheels... so basically i want a 350whp 350 tpi car...

with that being said my absolute dream 350 for this car would be

first intake (the ultimate tpi system)
hotcam (or comp 502 like cam)
afr 180 heads (best street heads for 350sbc)
vigilante 2800 stall

im like 75 percent complete here i just want opinions and want to see what you guys think...

heres a current pic of my motor what do you guys think

 

Cool build! I dont have much feedback on your questions, but If it were me and I wanted it to pull to 5.5-6K, Id go with a little more head. AFR 195's may be a better match.

Tell me how you like that first intake over the regular tpi? I have been eyeing it for a while now.

 

After seeing what the california guys do, i'd go 195's and step up a size on the camshaft. 224 to 226 deg on the intake will do and make sure that thing makes power up over 5500. It will peak in the 5200-5500 range but hold power to 5600-5800 and you likely would shift by 6k. Very nice setup. The 180 heads likely will work too.

 

yeah i wanted to put in a comp 502 cam (224/230 duration) and afr 195 would be an awesome combo...... now that i actually have time to tear it down without worrying about being out of a car i can make this happen...

 

AFR 180 eliminator's will support well over 400hp and are more than enough for all your looking for. Linginfelter and SLP where making over 350hp with ported 165cc Vette heads with worse flowing ports even after porting. If your running a First intake and only wanting 6k then 195's are overkill even though the popular consensus here is to run them. Especially if your not planning on spraying it, FI, or going bigger CI.

You have to remember that the 180's now flow more than what the old 190's used to flow. Now with beehives and 8mm valves I wouldn't even consider a hotcam. The CC502 (218/224 .495/.503 112lsa 108icl) or an XFI 268 (218/224 .570/.565 113lsa 109icl) would both be great. The CC502 will run quieter and probably be easier on the valves but the XFI will make a little more power and have a little more extended RPM with it's 1 degree more retarded ICL, the extra lift more than makes up for 1 degree LSA and 1 degree ICL difference down low.

I'm not to familiar with the first intake or what it's limits are. But assuming it's still a long runner intake designed with torque in mind, then the 180's are a better match to the intake.

Now, If your truly looking to build a high winding race motor, and you truly want to rev, and your doing heads and cam. Then throw a MR on it with some 195's and a bigger cam and let her eat past 6k. The stock crank was good for 400hp. If you replaced it with forged unit then get your money's worth out of that bottom end! Otherwise you completely wasted your money on that crank.

 

My friend runs old 190 AFR's with 280xfi and made 330whp before valve float. Without float I think it was a 350-360whp combo. Guys running same cam with new AFR 195's make closer to 400whp. I'm not sure 180's will better the old 190's by much. Better heads and intake you can run less cam to make the hp goal. 180's may get there tho, I just never see anyone using them since 90% of 350's can benefit from the 195's. AFR's have high port velocities so you can get away with a larger head on the motor.

 

Someone owes it to the community to run a comparison dyno with 180 and 195 cylinder heads back to back with everything else being the same. I would love to see a comparison dyno graph of both heads to compare the torque curves. Your completely right though with nobody running them. I think alot of that has to do with carried over beliefs from the original 180-190 heads where there wasn't much question but to jump up to the the 190's.

330hp does seem extremely weak and I bet the old std valve 190's with the agressive lobes had everything to do with that. That cam is pushing .576 lift on the intake with 230 duration and I would speculate about 6400rpm peak hp? Thats asking alot of the valvetrain and even those older 190's have alot more in them than that. I'm willing to bet he would have made 330rwhp or better with a 276HR with .510 lift. Without float that combo shoulda been solidly over 350hp.

I have seen 330hp with 180 heads and a LPE 211/219 and HSR.
On the opposite end I've seen only 320hp with XFI268 and 195's with a Edelbrock base and runners. Pretty obvious the intake is a serious restriction here.

I agree though that there is a benefit from the 195's though. Again though, in this app or any stock to mildly modified TPI, my thinking is that the LTR intake will be the limiting factor and that gain won't be realized.

 

Started floating at 5700. Stock AFR 190 springs are not enough for the XFI lobes. Only 120lbs seat and 320 open. Seen it over and over again. XE lobes likely would have floated alittle higher in the rpm range but yes, the 280 wanted to go to near 6300 rpm peak, possibly higher with better heads. Alot of people dont realize the importance of spring pressure on these aggressive cams when turning over 5700 rpms.

AFR's newer heads with their 8019 springs can handle the XFI lobes just fine. I ran those springs to 7K with a 230 deg .603" lobe No issues

I'd love to see a test where the 180s are put against the 195's with same intake and cam. The big advantage the 195's will have is over 5800 rpm IMO. It may even show advantage alittle earlier if the cam does have higher lift to take advantage of the heads flow. Depending onthe intake. Assume shorter runner stuff to get a full rpm range sweep and let the heads be the limitation.

Knowing what I know now, I would use 180's on a 350 to 5000-5500 rpm or so, 195's on 350's to 6500 rpm and less, 210's on 350's to 7K, and 210's on 383 to 6500 or less. A smaller valved 215-220 head would rock on a 383 to 7200

 

"Then throw a MR on it with some 195's and a bigger cam and let her eat past 6k."

Actually we have some real experience in that area. The MiniRams I have seen with the XFI 280/286-230/236 and AFR 195 heads will indeed make 400rwhp with the supporting mods and go to 6500rpm. The horsepower curve will be a straight line going up.

However our long tube runners will do the same but with a fat curving line going up to the max horsepower. It will have more horsepower under the curve and more torque. The first thing Vincent noticed when changing from a Super Ram to a Mini Ram with his 5 speed was the decrease in low end torque. When he went to the track I don't think he gained a thing. Might have even lost some. Maybe he will comment if he sees this thread.

One more thing in regards to camshafts. I just recently this week passed the California smog test again with a 233/233 camshaft. Car idles quite nicely at 800rpm and the smog tech did not say a thing. The numbers were better than average so it was not even close on the emission standards. Passed the visual and emission part.

 

I need to keep an eye on this build.

I have the 195's with a Miniram on a stock 4" bore, Bullet cam 226/234 at 50 565/565 with 1.6 rockers, when I call to have the cam made we figured it would max at 6000 but at the track it feel like it pull up 6500, will be on the dyno soon to find out.

IMO the 195's would be a better choice, though I do agree that I have not seen any builds with the 180's to tell but that must account for something, maybe many engine builders have already done the homework and so its not a very popular build.

Anyways I'd like to see what the end result will be so I can compare.

 

Like others have said, I would go with 195's. I would also lean more toward that xfi268 or similar cam. Honestly it should run pretty dam good with that first intake. For a little comparison, with a stock bottom end 350, 195's, 276hr14 cam (220/230 .540/.540), completely stock tpi setup I went 12.27 shifting at 5700.

 

its nice to hear from you guys..i like your ideas.. i originally had a miniram and bought it from a friend for 150 or 200 dollars, then i sold it on ebay for about 1200 dollars and bought the first intake with the money...

as for the cam i really wanted to get the comp 503 cam and add 1.6 rockers to it

so with 1.6 rockers it would be 224/230 duration .536/.543 lift at 112 lsa

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-08-503-8/

i was going to go with ls7 lifter and need to get non align rocker arms for the afr heads.. also getting new pushrods and double roller timing chain while im down there and then put on afr 195 heads to complete it.... then get it all tuned and that should make for a hot tpi 350 for sure....

 

Sounds like a good plan. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised with the results

 

i dont plan this to be completed anyime soon... but those are the parts i will be getting evenutally... definitely will be a fun project for me.. but what i can do soon is get dyno numbers for my current build now considering i have another daily driver now.... im very curious to see what my power is now.....