Hi. I´m swapping 350 tpi engine from T/A to the 1970 Camaro. I´m wondering what kind of fuel pump system wuold be easiest and smartest to do? Right now I`m thinking to put small external reservoir, in line high pressure pump and low pressure pump to feed the reservoir. I don´t like to cut my fuel tank and weld "sump" on it. Or what do you think? Would that be easiest? What wuold be good in line pump. Will MSD PN2225 work? Right now it is the cheapest what I have found. And what would be good low-pressure pump what will work with the return line? Let me know, if you have good ideas.......Thank´s.
Mika

 

I did a TPI conversion on a '79 K5 Blazer two years ago. Used the factory stock non-baffled fuel tank, with a high pressure Bosch pump/Iroc filter just downstream of the tank. Only thing I had to do 'custom' was put new 3/8" steel fuel line in for supply and a 5/16" return line in. Reason for it was the stock lines had standard rubber fuel lines in 3 different places and I wanted it to be steel all the way up to the engine compartment.

Don't think you have to do anything different than I did. I would suggest doing new lines - nothing to it, buy the 3/8" steel line from NAPA already with the fittings on, and bend them to fit the frame rails.

 

Thank´s for the info. So, You only use one pump. Doesn´t you have any air sucking problems when the tank is on low fuel? What do you mean downstream. In what place did you fasten the pump? Do you remember the part number for that Boch pump and how much was it? I think I´m gonna use old steel lines. Just replace the rubber parts for the new ones. And I have old charcoal canister line still in the car, but don´t have the canister and don´t need it, so I think I´m gonna use that line for the return.

 

mika,
in experience it is best to have the fuel pump intank. cost more on
the up front, but beats sitting on the side of the road waiting for
the vapor lock to be overcome. the heat while traveling goes down
the frame rail. most external pumps attach on the frame rail. this
heats the pump, causing pressure fall off. weve seen too many
low pressure problems with these types of setups.
the intanks have less problems in pressure while driving.
the sump is to assure fuel pickup. regardless if the pump is in or
out the factory pickup isnt really the best. easiest to solve is
to purchase another sending unit, fashion the fuel pump and return
line to the sending unit. done.
minimum line size for street 5/16" for racing 3/8" return line.
airdeano

 

Mika,
You only need to use one pump, preferably in-tank. The in-tank uses the gas surrounding it for cooling where as the in-line external pump does not have this ability. If going with an external pump, use a rubber sleeve or some other antivibration/bad conductor of heat material to wrap the pump.
See how much different the connections and sending units are different from the T/A's when compared camaro's. you may be able to mod the T/A sending unit to work in the camaros tank or you may be able to install the T/A's tank in the camaro. just some thoughts.

Without a baffeling system, you will have air sucking problems when the tank is on low fuel. I do not run mine less than 1/2 tank. As you have stated,I used my old steel lines. Replaced the rubber parts for the new Fuel injection hoses.

Mika wrote:
"And I have old charcoal canister line still in the car, but don´t have the canister and don´t need it, so I think I´m gonna use that line for the return." That is what conclusion i came to when i installed my TPI system and it has been working perfectly.

 

Guys, no offense, but my engine builder/TPI buddy has done 130+ conversions of TPI motors into mainly Jaguars, tho he has done a few trucks/jeeps/s-10's, and not ONE has an in-tank pump. All his applications are inline Bosch pumps, as is mine. I have it wrapped in a rubber insulator, mounted to the frame rail and have no problems with vapor lock (heck, that's what the return line is for), nor any air sucking problems ever, and I four wheel this truck up sand dunes! ! ! ! ! ! In line pumps are MEANT to be run inline, and as such, are designed for this application.

 

blazinor,
i am glad for you in your performance of an inline pump.
but, im in the business to selling aftermarket TPI/LT1/LS1 engines
in non factory vehicles. 80% failure of fuel pumps are frame
mounted pumps. be they from NAPA, bosch, AC-Delco etc..
found 3 of them at the louisville street rod nationals this year.
1-bosch and 2 NAPA pumps. drive them for 5min and watch the
fuel pressure fall from 46psi to 22-25psi. from the heat travelling
the frame rail. we took the hood off on and it ran longer because
the heat escape was easier. when temps get above 95º+
pressure failure is more evident in frame rail mount than intank.
vapor lock was a term used rather than heat soak due to pump
overheating causing the fuel to boil and depressurize.
yes frame rail pumps are meant to run mounted inline, but in the
instructions they also caution about pump over voltage, shielding
from exhaust heat and failure to insulate for this my degrade
pump performance. just some helpful advice the forum member
might need.
airdeano

 

Man, now I am not sure what should I do. I guess, that in-line system sounded too easy to do. Sounds like there is lots of different kind of opinions. I wonder why it works in some cars and not in others? So, I think I´m going to unbolt the Camaros tank and start figure out how to install T/As pump in it? I have hole winter time to make it in the best way and I don´t like to be sitting on the side of the road, cause I did do it properly at the first time. Has anybody ever install in tank pump to 2nd gen Camaro? One thing, what I´m worried about is, that Camaros tanks sending unit hole is too small to fit the pump in the tank. T/As tank haven´t been used in two years and it´s been dry, so do you think the pump in it still works?
Mika

 

airdeano speaks the gospel - go with an in-tank pump. I think your tank is easy to remove and replace, unlike a 3rd gen?

I used my vapor line for return line also. You need to make sure that the clamps you use are true EFI clamps and not just basic hose clamps.

If your vapor line is on the drivers side, that is easy. You have a T/A engine, which means you have drivers side fuel lines. Perfect.

My high side line is this: A 3rd gen has a line from the sending unit to the filter. I hand-bent 2 of these. From my sending unit to the filter are these 2. From the filter is a hard line out of a 3rd gen TPI car. This goes up to the DS frame rail and points upwards. The flex lines from the fuel rails connects this hard line to the fuel rails. 100% factory parts, 100% threaded. I feel safe

If you are going to drive this car quite a bit, you might see what is out there in aftermarket tanks that are baffled, and a sending unit that works in them.

BlazinOR - in-tank pumps are quieter and run cooler. Doesn't matter of your buddy has done 1000 swaps; these are still facts.

Mika - the pump in the T/A tank should be fine. Even if GM parts are not easy to come by, you can probably use a pump off a variety of other cars. If the depth of the Camaro fuel tank is close to the T/A tank, and you can use the T/A sending unit, you could section the top of the T/A tank onto the top of the Camaro tank.

or... maybe an '81 Camaro tank would fit and have a larger opening? I know an EFI sending unit from a GN or a 4.3L V6 Monte fits in a carburetor fuel tank in an 86 Monte

Matthew

 

In tank is a pain in the ***, the worst design ever for the poor soul who has to replace it.

BUT.. airdeano is absolutely positively correct, they last longer, run cooler.

Unfortunately when they go in a thirdgen, its a pain to replace them.

Most of my buddies run the in-line ones on their carb cars (because of blower - requires like 14lbs) and have problems.

 

2nd gen f-bodies have easy to pull fuel tanks.

<yawn>

 

You took the hood off and it ran longer because the heat escaped? What crazy is this?

In-line high pressure pumps should be mounted as close to the gas tank as possible, so opening the hood should have no effect of the life of the pump.
I am running an in-line for 3 years now without even a hint of failure or pressure loss when warm.

 

John,

You know the rubber seal on the top of the cowl on some GM cars? It's on the base of the hood on others. Removing it makes a BIG difference in cooling on cars that have it that have NO problems, just that they run hot.

Heating the hell out of the fuel before it goes to the tank is just how it goes in summer on a closed engine bay car. Back to the real question... and that's that an in tank pump runs cooler. Therefore, a system that is at it's edge will have the external pump be the "fuse" so to speak and cause what was described, at length, by airdeano.

Glad that your pump has not given you a problem.

Matthew

 

John, you made me feel better reading your post............being the new guy on here you don't want to 'fight city hall' but the reality is inline pumps are meant to run outside the tank and are designed to do so, quite effectively. Your point about being close to the tank is very true, may be why others have had problems. Who knows..........but I do know what I have seen, my engine builder has done 100+ of those conversions on high dollar Jaguars, all with frame mounted Bosch pumps, and does NOT have problems. That is as real world proven as anyone should need. Might I move mine to a tank mount? Maybe.............but only because I would be replacing my gas tank with a baffled one that already has the hookups for it, but only then.

As far as the 'noise' comment that was passed on to me, that too is BS. I can hardly hear my pump when I turn the key in the morning, let alone with the beast is running.

 

Hey I recognize you. You're the guy on Colorado K5 board that doesn't believe in VSS's LOL... This'll be fun. And yes, you should get a baffled tank

 

My in-line pump is quite loud. It is a blue Paxton monstor pump. Almost as big as a loaf of bread.

I don't doubt in tank pumps run cooler, they are designed to be in fuel.
Good in-line pumps are designed to run outside and should have cooling fins on them.

 

john,
these are street rods (32-34 coupes/sedans) with hoods off
because the engine heat rus along the frame rails (same as
the exhaust pipe) and bears plenty of heat into the pumps.
on 32 ford was running 42psi.. and you can watch the pressure
fall off the longer you ran the car. so for grins, we took the hood
off and with the heat soaked pump it took longer for the pressure
to fall down to 25psi. and then the car would stumble, buck, and
die. and it was a bosch pump. this cat changed the fuel pump
twice. thinking that the pump failure was legit. since we saw him
at louisville. he installed the pump in the tank and no more
problems. we sell many of the TPI conversions, and the same
complaint on frame rails. some later than others... some are
luckier, i guess. and yes they are placed as close to the tank, but
still you soak them with engine heat, exhaust heat and road
heat... something gunna get hot.
just some observations..
airdeano

 

John,

you have a "blue Paxton monstor pump" which you state is as big as a loaf of bread. this pump sounds like it has been seriously designed with a heat sink so that it cools and performs well for this use. some of the lessor made pumps do not have these abilities and should not be used. The external pump i purchased originally to run my TPI system looked alot like a fuel filter to which a couple of wires hooked up, far from the design which you stated that you are currently running. I decided to use the intank pump instead since this also increased the number of pumps i could use with the 4.3 F.I. monte sending unit. I chose the GMC syclone pump since it even outflowed the GN's pump. The pump companies have seen this overheating problem because there are several new external pumps out on the market that have been designed to cool themselves internally since they are not being cooled like an in-tank pump.

 

Haha, yep, I'm the guy with a kicka$$ 406 TPI motor that has no VSS and runs like a bat out of hell. Any more questions?

In my never ending quest for more power, I am actually listening (with my open mind) and going to try a VSS.........ordered it Thursday. Figure I have nothing to lose but the $70 it cost me, if it doesn't do jack for me I will at least know it did or didn't. Which is more than I can say for the closed-minded group that preach 'gotta have VSS' when they don't know the facts.

I repeat this once again - the engine builder friend of mine is a former GM mechanic. He left that job to pursue building race motors/race cars and got a city job that he loves. So his reputation locally is revered - and has done 130+ conversions to TPI from carbed cars/trucks - none with in tank pumps or VSS. Too bad you couldn't get a ride in his Jag coupe with the 434 ci TPI motor.............make you crap your pants. And no, it doesn't have VSS, EGR, VATS, or an intank pump.

This board, like CK5, is for learning. I admit I have an open mind and to illustrate it am putting in the VSS..........now, how about you quit mocking someone who doesn't follow the 'norm' like a sheep and can prove what I have kicks tail. Just because the factory put VSS in doesn't necessarily mean it is an absolute requirement - the same could be said for all the ported plenums/runners/manifold discussions I love to learn from - as well as the AFPR's, larger injectors, eprom burning. If we hot rodders relied on the factory settings we wouldn't be hot rodders, now would we?

 

Here is my in-line pump. This thing is huge.

 

Any updates? I'm installing a tpi in my shortbed and this site has helped, I too ran a sumped tank and inline pump. Vss will come later lol.

 

I doubt many of these members are active anymore, but I'd sure love to hear how you get vapor lock in a pressurized return system....and how the VSS makes more power.