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I m converting my 86 tpi trans am to flex fuel, New racetronic 255lph pump, flexfuel sensor, New injetors, New aeromotive regulator... And programmation of my haltech ecu.
I would like to know if some of you use the original fuel filter for such application or use New ones liké aeromotive ones ?
I opened a Fram g3727 to see how it is , it is a paper style filter, i think it should resist to e85, but I would like your feedback
you forgot youll have to change all your fuel lines. also im running the cheap metal screened ones off amazon. been working fine soo far after over 1 year.
Is the Walbro 255 pump compatible with E85? The Racetronix 255 pump is not, I know that.
And how much Hp are you making? 255 lph isn't much pump for E85.
Haltech ECU is not cheap so I'm scratching my head because usually somebody with a Haltech is also making serious power.
Why changing the steel lines ? mines are in good shape and not rusted. I will change the other ones with teflon ones.
I already have the haltech ecu, it is really great ! i m going to add an innovate ecf-1 to have the alcohol content, monitor pressure and temp, and I will send the alcohol info to an analog input.
255lph will be ok for a 300HP engine, I'm puting 36lbs injectors.
For the fuel filter, no problems to change every 6 months if needed, As far as I will monitor the pressure, I will see if there is a pressure loss.
But my question is does somebody use it with e85 ?
Yes, that E85 pump is a new offering. Nice to know.
And looks like they did the same for the 340 lph which is a nice sweet spot for a lot of people with n/a engines.
No, he's trying to get it right the first time. E85 fuel can clog the crap out of filters. And he probably will go through a bunch of filters as the E85 cleans up a 30 year old tank.
Might want to have pre- and post-filter pressure sensors so you can see if the filter is clogging. Running the pump with a partially clogged filter will cause higher delivery pressure and higher motor current wearing out the pump a lot quicker than normal.
I personally don't see the lure for an engine that can't take advantage of it with higher compression. E85 is a maintenance headache, especially cars that sit a lot. But you know we all have our hobbies so all is well if you're prepared.
If you're that worried, take the paper filter, and let it sit in E85 for a month.
Having said that, we use 55 gallons of pure alcohol at work. Isp, and the nasty 200 proof stuff. They come in 55 gallon steel drums, nothing fancy.
No, he's trying to get it right the first time. E85 fuel can clog the crap out of filters. And he probably will go through a bunch of filters as the E85 cleans up a 30 year old tank.
Might want to have pre- and post-filter pressure sensors so you can see if the filter is clogging. Running the pump with a partially clogged filter will cause higher delivery pressure and higher motor current wearing out the pump a lot quicker than normal.
I personally don't see the lure for an engine that can't take advantage of it with higher compression. E85 is a maintenance headache, especially cars that sit a lot. But you know we all have our hobbies so all is well if you're prepared.
Originally Posted by Eightyninef
If you're that worried, take the paper filter, and let it sit in E85 for a month.
Having said that, we use 55 gallons of pure alcohol at work. Isp, and the nasty 200 proof stuff. They come in 55 gallon steel drums, nothing fancy.
Hello All,
Thanks for your precious feedbacks and experience.
So I will use the standard filter and install gauges and monitor fuel pressure before the filter and before my aeromotive fuel regulator.
In testing, it was found a filter service interval that gave good fuel pump service life required a new, down-stream filter be installed every 10 run-hours. It is vital to understand that a blocked filter creates severe flow restriction of pump output, building excessively high operating pressure between the pump and the contaminated element.
My advice when using E85 is to severely over think it. Check valves on the fuel tank- where are they and how do they work? Air must enter the tank when fuel leaves. Air entering the fuel tank from outside contains water which you do not want inside the fuel tank. Consider this situation carefully. Venting in the fuel tank = same issue, water from air outside getting inside can quickly ruin alcohol fuels, clog filters, cause separation, cause corrosion, bad news. The tank should seal up tight with pressure activated check valves- performance check valves are recommended (superior to OEM) Metal components inside fuel tank may corrode due to alcohol fuels. If the tank was designed before E85 became available there is reason to inspect and consider every metal object in the fuel tank including the tank itself.
Typical fuel tanks using gasoline develop a layer of trash, often a thin layer of 'soot-like dust' covers the fuel tank, debris stationary for many years. When you switch to alcohol all of that debris and coating will free itself and enter the fuel pump, probably clogging the pre-filter and ruining the fuel pump. I recommend within the first couple hundred miles inspect the fuel sock, fuel pump, and replace as needed, and clean anything you can reach before doing any of this (drain the tank and wipe it out the best you can). Fuel filter wise, I would run three. The sock on the fuel pump should be inspected as often as possible within the first month of switching to E85 to prevent fuel pump and possibly engine failure if making power which I See you are not, but anyways (big power on E85 + clogged fuel pump = bad). The second fuel filter should be just after the pump, in a very easy to reach location, and use a easy to wash style of filter element so you can quickly remove it, clean it, and put it back on. The final filter is the lowest (smallest) micron filtration element, typically made of a paper or similar materials, disposable style (throw it away often), close to the engine to protect the fuel injectors.
Some fuel injectors can rust, seize, and many will clog, when E85 alcohol is left in them over time, I recommend flush the fuel system with gasoline before parking the car for anymore than a day or two. That said, Expect to send the fuel injectors out for cleaning once in a while to prevent mishaps where an injector clogs and you damage the engine on that one cylinder. For my customers using large injectors, expensive engines, high power and E85 we always have two sets of injectors, one in the engine and one is always out for cleaning. Fuel lines, The way most go is full PTFE and make sure you get machine crimps (not DIY) fittings added to the PTFE hoses. Although this method is tried and true it can be a pain and expensive, and it leaves you with soft hoses under the car which I dislike. Be sure to run them properly, I recommend Riv-nuts type of install with plastic (not zip ties) fuel hose holders or whatever they are called.
Its alot of work to maintain a high performance E85 fuel system. I generally only recommend Alcohol fuels for surpassing the 800rwhp barrier to offset the enormous heat the engine is putting out beyond that level which gasoline fuels have trouble with at any displacement.
My advice when using E85 is to severely over think it. Check valves on the fuel tank- where are they and how do they work? Air must enter the tank when fuel leaves. Air entering the fuel tank from outside contains water which you do not want inside the fuel tank. Consider this situation carefully. Venting in the fuel tank = same issue, water from air outside getting inside can quickly ruin alcohol fuels, clog filters, cause separation, cause corrosion, bad news. The tank should seal up tight with pressure activated check valves- performance check valves are recommended (superior to OEM) Metal components inside fuel tank may corrode due to alcohol fuels. If the tank was designed before E85 became available there is reason to inspect and consider every metal object in the fuel tank including the tank itself.
Typical fuel tanks using gasoline develop a layer of trash, often a thin layer of 'soot-like dust' covers the fuel tank, debris stationary for many years. When you switch to alcohol all of that debris and coating will free itself and enter the fuel pump, probably clogging the pre-filter and ruining the fuel pump. I recommend within the first couple hundred miles inspect the fuel sock, fuel pump, and replace as needed, and clean anything you can reach before doing any of this (drain the tank and wipe it out the best you can). Fuel filter wise, I would run three. The sock on the fuel pump should be inspected as often as possible within the first month of switching to E85 to prevent fuel pump and possibly engine failure if making power which I See you are not, but anyways (big power on E85 + clogged fuel pump = bad). The second fuel filter should be just after the pump, in a very easy to reach location, and use a easy to wash style of filter element so you can quickly remove it, clean it, and put it back on. The final filter is the lowest (smallest) micron filtration element, typically made of a paper or similar materials, disposable style (throw it away often), close to the engine to protect the fuel injectors.
Some fuel injectors can rust, seize, and many will clog, when E85 alcohol is left in them over time, I recommend flush the fuel system with gasoline before parking the car for anymore than a day or two. That said, Expect to send the fuel injectors out for cleaning once in a while to prevent mishaps where an injector clogs and you damage the engine on that one cylinder. For my customers using large injectors, expensive engines, high power and E85 we always have two sets of injectors, one in the engine and one is always out for cleaning. Fuel lines, The way most go is full PTFE and make sure you get machine crimps (not DIY) fittings added to the PTFE hoses. Although this method is tried and true it can be a pain and expensive, and it leaves you with soft hoses under the car which I dislike. Be sure to run them properly, I recommend Riv-nuts type of install with plastic (not zip ties) fuel hose holders or whatever they are called.
Its alot of work to maintain a high performance E85 fuel system. I generally only recommend Alcohol fuels for surpassing the 800rwhp barrier to offset the enormous heat the engine is putting out beyond that level which gasoline fuels have trouble with at any displacement.
Hello
Thanks for your advises.
On 86 trans am, check valve and vent valve is the same, do you have a part reference you use ?
For the tank, I should better replace it to a new one to avoid the risk. a new steel fuel tank in reproduction.
How many microns do you recommend for the second fuel filter ?
for the third one I will use the paper one.
I will use brand new accel 36lbs injectors which are designed to be used with alcohol too.
Why could I not use my factory steel lines ? they are in good shape.
Its risky and limiting to use OEM Hardline on old vehicles produced around or before 92-94~
Are they steel? Or stainless?
Both can react to Alcohol when water is introduced. Steel much more likely to degrade I would imagine, rust, corrosion, wreck your fuel system, ruin injectors, damage fuel pump clogged, etc...
While PTFE is inert and will never react.
You will still need flexible sections of hose to connect to the engine anyways, which should be PTFE anyways, so how will you connect ptfe braided hose to OEM fuel hardlines?
It isn't impossible, just annoying.
And all of that done, say you want more than 450hp(or whatever) at some point with E85... The OEM 5/16" Hardlines are not going to support big power and need to replace anyways.
Crimp properly, flare tooled, bent nice, cleanly done is ideal for Daily Driver situations IMO.
Filtration wise look at what Aeromotive offers and choose the best (lowest micron) with a cleanable, inspectable, easy to access element. They are generally similar (iirc 10-30uM ranges) You will be routinely inspecting and cleaning it to ensure the fuel system is being run with clean fluids.
I also recommend pre-filtering your E85 before putting it into the fuel tank to prevent fuel tank issues which can be hard to deal with, clean, etc.... (not fun dropping the tank every couple of weeks due to poor filling station cleanliness) You can get or make an nozzle attachment so it filters right out of the gas station and into the tank (no need to bring the fuel home in a plastic container first, usually)
The first thing to do is inspect and determine where and how the check valves on your tank currently work. Perform a pressure test on the tank, and a vacuum test, see what they 'crack open' at. Determine whether they will breath at rest (not good, they probably will). There is usually also a check in the gas cap for most vehicles. The checks allow air to enter or exit the fuel tank as needed and they attempt to prevent fuel from spilling out in a roll over. But they do not control breathing (on older vehicles much) to prevent Air contamination (water induction) to E85 in the fuel tank/cell. That is why I suggest upgrade to a modern checkvalve system which can prevent water from entering with air as much as possible. I Would suggest buying a few different types if you are unsure and testing them and determine which is the ideal size/fitment/utility. I would also recommend installing some kind of replaceable desiccant to remove water from air as it enters the fuel tank, but nobody does that, its just an idea of mine.
Its risky and limiting to use OEM Hardline on old vehicles produced around or before 92-94~
Are they steel? Or stainless?
Both can react to Alcohol when water is introduced. Steel much more likely to degrade I would imagine, rust, corrosion, wreck your fuel system, ruin injectors, damage fuel pump clogged, etc...
While PTFE is inert and will never react.
You will still need flexible sections of hose to connect to the engine anyways, which should be PTFE anyways, so how will you connect ptfe braided hose to OEM fuel hardlines?
It isn't impossible, just annoying.
And all of that done, say you want more than 450hp(or whatever) at some point with E85... The OEM 5/16" Hardlines are not going to support big power and need to replace anyways.
Crimp properly, flare tooled, bent nice, cleanly done is ideal for Daily Driver situations IMO.
Filtration wise look at what Aeromotive offers and choose the best (lowest micron) with a cleanable, inspectable, easy to access element. They are generally similar (iirc 10-30uM ranges) You will be routinely inspecting and cleaning it to ensure the fuel system is being run with clean fluids.
I also recommend pre-filtering your E85 before putting it into the fuel tank to prevent fuel tank issues which can be hard to deal with, clean, etc.... (not fun dropping the tank every couple of weeks due to poor filling station cleanliness) You can get or make an nozzle attachment so it filters right out of the gas station and into the tank (no need to bring the fuel home in a plastic container first, usually)
The first thing to do is inspect and determine where and how the check valves on your tank currently work. Perform a pressure test on the tank, and a vacuum test, see what they 'crack open' at. Determine whether they will breath at rest (not good, they probably will). There is usually also a check in the gas cap for most vehicles. The checks allow air to enter or exit the fuel tank as needed and they attempt to prevent fuel from spilling out in a roll over. But they do not control breathing (on older vehicles much) to prevent Air contamination (water induction) to E85 in the fuel tank/cell. That is why I suggest upgrade to a modern checkvalve system which can prevent water from entering with air as much as possible. I Would suggest buying a few different types if you are unsure and testing them and determine which is the ideal size/fitment/utility. I would also recommend installing some kind of replaceable desiccant to remove water from air as it enters the fuel tank, but nobody does that, its just an idea of mine.
Thanks it is clear !
I will use a racetronic 255lph pump, New alcohol compatible. So smaller than the 340lph aeromotive, but you re right it is better to put ptfe lines. With one filter in tank, one aeromotive filter and one standard paper filter.
My biggest problem will be if I have to inspect frequently or change the filter which on the pump in the tank...
As far as it is a Steel tank... I Can t remove the tank everytime. It seems to be a show stopper...
I don't like external pumps in general, because they tend to be noisy, and they heat their surroundings. They are also difficult to keep clean, they get dusty, dirty, and that makes them difficult to service and keep the fuel system clean during servicing. I recommend you find a way to use an in-tank style pump.
Otherwise, If you can mount the external pumps in a place where:
A. Noise reduction (insulated from driver the noise)
B. Heat removal (good air circulation out of the insulation with options for extra cooling if needed i.e. fans)
C. Protection from environment (A cover to keep dust and dirt out)
D. Inspection / Servicing (easy to access)
I don't like external pumps in general, because they tend to be noisy, and they heat their surroundings. They are also difficult to keep clean, they get dusty, dirty, and that makes them difficult to service and keep the fuel system clean during servicing. I recommend you find a way to use an in-tank style pump.
Otherwise, If you can mount the external pumps in a place where:
A. Noise reduction (insulated from driver the noise)
B. Heat removal (good air circulation out of the insulation with options for extra cooling if needed i.e. fans)
C. Protection from environment (A cover to keep dust and dirt out)
D. Inspection / Servicing (easy to access)
I understand that an in tank pump is better cooled but on a 86 trans am I have to remove the tank top service the prefilter, si not easy in case of filter clogged with e85...
For a 1200rwhp setup the reason you overthink and plan these systems accordingly, perfectly, is to prevent engine catastrophic failure.
At low power (400hp ranges) fuel use potential is lower, so fuel filtration components will last longer at power. Additionally, Impact of flow on performance is less important, clogging of a injector is less likely to lead to catastrophic failure, clogging of a pump due to off-chance situations (rarely but possible to occur) is not necessarily an engine-life issue, but an inconvenience.
It may be advisable/acceptable to try using E85 compatible in-tank pump with whatever simple hardware you have already and carefully monitor for issues in behavior of a/f ratio, fuel pressure, pump 'noise' (loading due to clogging), voltage draw (Use appropriate fuse on the pump current wire). Perform an inspection after say 2,000 to 12,000 miles or whatever to make sure nothing is corroding etc...
This way you can get familiar with E85 and also determine whether the simplest devices and implementation can work acceptably for you or not
For a 1200rwhp setup the reason you overthink and plan these systems accordingly, perfectly, is to prevent engine catastrophic failure.
At low power (400hp ranges) fuel use potential is lower, so fuel filtration components will last longer at power. Additionally, Impact of flow on performance is less important, clogging of a injector is less likely to lead to catastrophic failure, clogging of a pump due to off-chance situations (rarely but possible to occur) is not necessarily an engine-life issue, but an inconvenience.
It may be advisable/acceptable to try using E85 compatible in-tank pump with whatever simple hardware you have already and carefully monitor for issues in behavior of a/f ratio, fuel pressure, pump 'noise' (loading due to clogging), voltage draw (Use appropriate fuse on the pump current wire). Perform an inspection after say 2,000 to 12,000 miles or whatever to make sure nothing is corroding etc...
This way you can get familiar with E85 and also determine whether the simplest devices and implementation can work acceptably for you or not
ok, I'm more in the 300-350HP.
I will install a new pump wiring for the new pump. the racetronic 255lph.
So only changing lines with teflon ones ?
If I keep the stock tank, I will have to keep the first part of the steel lines which are with the sender.
with the 225lph, in your opinion the 5/16 line will be large enough
I will install a fuel pressure sensor before the fuel filter and one fuel pressure after (or maybe on the fuel regulator, if the regulator doesn't have the good pressure, it will identify a filter problem)
For a 1200rwhp setup the reason you overthink and plan these systems accordingly, perfectly, is to prevent engine catastrophic failure.
At low power (400hp ranges) fuel use potential is lower, so fuel filtration components will last longer at power. Additionally, Impact of flow on performance is less important, clogging of a injector is less likely to lead to catastrophic failure, clogging of a pump due to off-chance situations (rarely but possible to occur) is not necessarily an engine-life issue, but an inconvenience.
It may be advisable/acceptable to try using E85 compatible in-tank pump with whatever simple hardware you have already and carefully monitor for issues in behavior of a/f ratio, fuel pressure, pump 'noise' (loading due to clogging), voltage draw (Use appropriate fuse on the pump current wire). Perform an inspection after say 2,000 to 12,000 miles or whatever to make sure nothing is corroding etc...
This way you can get familiar with E85 and also determine whether the simplest devices and implementation can work acceptably for you or not
I will install a new pump wiring for the new pump. the racetronic 255lph.
So only changing lines with teflon ones ?
If I keep the stock tank, I will have to keep the first part of the steel lines which are with the sender.
I would be tempted to find a way to go
fuel tank stock 5/16 -> hose clamp to braided teflon -> factory hardline -> hose clamp to braided teflon -> fuel rail AN fitting
However it seems unlikely
Instead what we usually wind up doing is:
Fuel tank bulkhead to 8AN -> Teflon Braided -> Fuel rail AN fitting (for 1200rwhp)
You could use 6an or 5an it doens't matter, 5/16" can easily 500rwhp on alcohol
I will install a fuel pressure sensor before the fuel filter and one fuel pressure after (or maybe on the fuel regulator, if the regulator doesn't have the good pressure, it will identify a filter problem)
Marc
you need a fuel pressure sensor on the fuel rail (Or fuel rail supply i.e. regulator) to protect the engine. It should be electronic, logged so you can review the log if possible. Gauges are okay for spot checking but they do not reveal inconsistencies and issues related to full power situations easily
Ethanol is not terrible...
Methanol is FAAAAARRRR Worse!
I actually use Ethanol to flush-out Methanol Fuel Systems.
With either Alcohol Fuel, Stainless-Steel Hard-Lines, and PTFE-Core Flex-Lines will be your best friends!
Also the Fuel Flow/ Fuel Volume requirements go up substantially compared to Gasoline...
Methanol especially will require larger diameter Lines, larger Filters, larger Pumps...
Just overall more Flow through-out!
