I am having my 700r4 built by the local trans guru in my town. It needs to be able to handle at least 500-600 hp.
I know this is kind of a lofty goal, but I know it is done by some radical street/race cars.

Those of you with heavily modded trannies, let me know which parts you used, I need the best parts I can get my hands on.

I am unsure of what shift kit, servo, etc. to run.
I have already decided on a 2800 rpm Vigilante converter.

What should I do to the trans to ensure a good life and super high performance????

 

In my opinion Transgo makes a great shift kit.

I would use at least a corvette boost valve (.500 diameter) you could go up to a young racing one (.525) they will carry even more pressure than stock. Hughes make a .570 or so but I heard that the sleeve is so hollowed out they have problem with them crushing.

You could use a gm Corvette servo that should boost your holding for each gear a little bet. They're are also aftermarket billet OD servos that have better holding for OD gear.

The converter should be matched the cam/engine combo/gears/tires and transmission. It's kind of a precesion science.


Good idea to throw on a temp gauge so you can see how hot the trans is running with the stall.

The main things that kill transmissions are stress and heat. Use a big cooler at least a 24k if not more with that stall. As for stress the smaller the convertor the less stress on the transmission. That's why probuilt recommends at least a 9.5" stall if not smaller if possible.

Stay away from that derale pan. They have tubes in the pan for extra cooling a number of members on the board have hit the ground with them and ripped them open and have lost all there fluid.

 

I remember someone posting a site that had some really nice performance 700r4 parts like servos, shift kits, rebuild kits, etc.

Where can I buy all this stuff????

I'd like to but it all from one place and get matched components. Usually a company that makes all the stuff instead of single parts has a betteer grasp on which combos will mate best to my motor and give me what I'm looking for.

 

Go to http://www.pro-built.net/index.cfm?f...ct&productid=5 this should give all you need to make this work.

 

hey man, I'm right next to you in Redlands!!!

Do you guys have any cool stuff around the shop??? Maybe I could come check it out sometime.

 

I trust Dana...and would use his kit if I hadn't already bought a trans from him

 

Which converter do you think would work best for my setup???

So far I have been looking at TCI Streetfighter w/lockup, and a Vigilante. Not sure if I can afford the Vigilante though.

Setup:
355 ci 4 bolt
9.75-1 comp.
TrickFlow 23 degree Heads
Comp XE 268 cam w/ 1.6 rockers
Holley "contender" intake (idle-7200 rpm)
Demon carb

Rear: right now and for a while= 3.23's
later= 4th gen rear with 3.42's

Will later be installing a 6 psi centrifugal supercharger, hoping to get at least 600 hp at the crank. Should be an easy goal since I'll get at least 425-450 out of this motor.

Not sure if I'll be changing over to EFI yet though.

 

The Vigilante or the A.C.T., Yank, Edge, Midwest, Pro Torque are alright. Stay away from B&M, Art Carr, TCI, their comeback rate is to high.

 

<b>Comp XE 268 cam w/ 1.6 rockers </b>

Just curious but that must be a flat tappet cam,

and from my experience if you want anything over 400 horsepower out of that motor you need to spin it past 6000~ RPMS, and that cams probably going to run out of real steam around 5500, I know comp says 6000 but guess what, I have an XE262 right now and it dies easilly around 5300 RPMS with a carb and victor intake. when i had the 303/313 Duration cam (234/244 @ .050) I could make my 420 horsepower @ 6400 RPMS easilly enough, but i dont see 400+ on that cam you have, no matter what your heads or intake flow, especially since its not a roller.

 

You are telling me that in order to make 400 hp you need to spin a 355 past 6000 rpm????
WRONG.
A freakin' Vortec headed motor can make over 400hp at about 5600 or 5700 rpm with 1.5 rockers.

You are going to tell me I won't make over 400 horsepower with TrickFlow heads and 1.6 rockers.

I'm not going to argue about experience and all that, I could care less. I know for a fact this motor is gonna make some mean power.

 

FYI:

A xe268 w/ 1.6 roller rockers has a final lift of .509 on the intake and .520 on the exhaust.

That's more lift than the xe284. Also higher ratio rockers give you a tad more duration. I don't think I'll have a problem with revving the motor to 6000 and simultaneously producing well over 400 hp.

Anyway, your post was off topic, you were to busy trying to correct me rather than give me advice. The motor is pretty much built, so if you have any suggestions for the CONVERTER, I'd like to hear them, otherwise.........save it.

Not trying to be a dick but, .......

 

What kind of deal could you give me on the entire rebuild kit plus a A.C.T converter. I did not see that you carried them.

Which stall speed do you think id best for my current combo. Please keep in mund that the car needs to be 100 percent streetable, it's only going to see the quarter mile once in a while.

 

I would suggest just calling Dana directly...He is great to work with...

As for streetability...I would do a search for the ACT convertor and how streetable it is...

Dana can recommend the best stall speed...

Good luck,

 

hey guy check this out !!! these guys are good. ive got one and it rocks!!! www.700raptor.com they sell every part ever needed too!!

 

I wasnt sure if your motor was completed or not. I was only adding insight.

<b>You are telling me that in order to make 400 hp you need to spin a 355 past 6000 rpm???? </b>

a N/A SBC @ 100%VE makes about 399 Ft.Lbs of torque, give or take 45~ according to crossfireTA and most of the books.

at 5252 rpms this is only 399 Horsepower.

I seriouselly doubt that with that cam, your going to have over 100%VE @ 5252 RPMS, in fact at that point it will be dropping which is why your peak HP will occur shortly thereafter... and it will be less than 400 horsepower with that cam, simple physics.

Have you looked on comp cams website for their dyno numbers?


NOT saying SBC in general, but here is a general SBC statement.
NO N/A SBC will produce over 420 HORSEPOWER below 5252 rpms, even at 100%VE (unlikelly) your still below the average torque of these motors. its just simple science.

thats why most 350's need to spin to 5700-6000 rpms to make 400~horsepower, and why the ones that spin to 7000 with solid roller cams make even more.

your cam is set to die before you hit 5500rpms, FACT. if your anywhere below 80%VE after 5500RPMS, your not going to make any more horsepower. guaranteed. fact. VE will be dropping, and so will torque and horsepower. thus, your current cam, XE268, will not produce the numbers you expect. lift helps, sure thing, but its simple physics thats creating a brick wall.

Not trying to be a dick, but your overestimating by about 75 horsepower. since this pertains to the issue, which is stall and transmission related, you may or may not be providing too much stall for a motor that doesnt need it. not saying it doesnt, just adding insight. constructive critisizm.

Here is Comp cams Dyno sheet directly from their website.

 

330, I suggest you just have Probuilt do the whole job. Mnay people around here have used his transmissions and have had no major complaints only minor problems (rarely) and Dana has taken care of them imediatly. My cousin is using one of Probuilts transmissions in his 66 El Camino drag car he runs out at Pomona and has had no problems granted its not a 700R4 but its well beyond the HP numbers you predict.

KingTal0n is right theres no way its going to make over 400hp with that cam even with 1.6RR or good heads. The top end build I did that died was un impressive with that cam, but now we have the new setup "built to COMPS recomonedations" ready to drop this comming week so we will see. Comp reccomends 9.0-9.2:1 compression and thier rep told me 9.5:1 is max compression, we had a tad over this. King is just trying to save you a headach so it might be fair to listen to what he is saying.

 

so frustating.

1st of, I know you can make over 400hp with that cam and 1.6rrs.

2nd= I choose that cam based on everyone recommendations from this site, so I'm kinda pissed cause I got those recommendations and now I'm hearing that it's the wrong way to go.

Know what, I'm over it, I'm putting a monster cam in there.

The motor is on the engine stand, without a timing cover, so I'm gonna switch it out. Probably a XE284.

 

330hp_91RS, back in 8-16-03 you made a post about your motor;
https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=196666

From that post:

<b>cp87GTA
I like the xe268 cam, BUT you won't see those hp numbers with it in a 355. The 268 does sound good, but there are a lot better out there. I have had that cam in my tpi engine for awhile now. Has great low end mid range power, but quits pulling about 5300/5500 rpm. If you want a cam for 6000 + the 268 is NOT the cam for you.
----
I'm running a stealth ram! Go to comp cams website and look at their dyno charts on that cam. Sure don't show no 420 hp.
----
LilJayV10
I think a 274xtreme cam would be a better choice especially if you are wanting to make 400+hp. That cam is what everyone uses w/ vortec heads. Also thre has been several build up's in car craft recently using the 242/252 crane cam and making 420+hp with vortec heads. What that cam seems a little wild if people are doing the same thing with the 274xtreme cam which is 230/236.
</b>


I am not the only one who recommended a different cam. You cant say everyone recommended the XE268 when its quite clear that no one did. show me a post where somone said that the XE268 would fullfil your goal of 400+ horsepower. I cant find it...

Installing a monster cam isnt going to be a cure all either. you need to figure out if its going to match very well with your intake and heads.. a motor needs a certain CFM Per RPM or it runs out of breath... it wont do you any good to have a cam that makes power at 7000 rpms, but your heads cant support the CFM required up there to make the power you want.

Also remember your gearing and stall will have to match the cams powerband as well. having a cam that picks up around 3500 rpms but a stall that only puts you at 2500 flash (2800 stall) isnt going to do you any good either.

and BTW I think your Blue RS looks slick as all hell

 

[I am not the only one who recommended a different cam. You cant say everyone recommended the XE268 when its quite clear that no one did. show me a post where somone said that the XE268 would fullfil your goal of 400+ horsepower. I cant find it...

Installing a monster cam isnt going to be a cure all either. you need to figure out if its going to match very well with your intake and heads.. a motor needs a certain CFM Per RPM or it runs out of breath... it wont do you any good to have a cam that makes power at 7000 rpms, but your heads cant support the CFM required up there to make the power you want.

Also remember your gearing and stall will have to match the cams powerband as well. having a cam that picks up around 3500 rpms but a stall that only puts you at 2500 flash (2800 stall) isnt going to do you any good either.

and BTW I think your Blue RS looks slick as all hell [/B][/QUOTE]

Alright, thanks for the research on what I said, although that was not the only post I made about the motor.

Anyway, I think the Comp XE 284 should work, although I wish there was a cam in between the 274 and 284.

I just don't get how someone is going to tell me " The 268 is not the cam for you, get the 274. Everyone make over 400 hp with that cam."

Can someone please inform me on how a Xe268 WITH 1.6 ROCKERS is going to give me LESS power than the Xe274 with 1.5's??????

I don't get it.


How bout thoughts on the Xe284????

Can someone run a desktop dyno??? TFS 23 degree heads, 355 9.75-1 comp., 1.52 roller rockers, Holley 'Contender' intake, Demon carb ( will be a 750).

Can someone run the Xe274 and then the Xe284 so I can understand a difference as well as see where the powerband is at to get the correct converetr????

 

Try transmissioncenter.net. Its the home of the 700r4 raptor and megaraptor. Everything you might want to put in your tranny to upgrade is on their site. It takes a few minutes to download tho. PATC in Louisiana is the place. Hope this helps.

 

i second that on the transmission center website. there the best ''bar none''lol

 

Desktop Dyno 274XE

 

XE284 (1.5) and

XE274 with 1.6RRS

 

and these are comp cams actual (not simulated) dyno numbers with their cams.

 

<b>I just don't get how someone is going to tell me " The 268 is not the cam for you, get the 274. Everyone make over 400 hp with that cam."

Can someone please inform me on how a Xe268 WITH 1.6 ROCKERS is going to give me LESS power than the Xe274 with 1.5's??????

I don't get it.</b>

Let me help you out a little.

Changing rocker arms changes lift. not duration. your duration is always the same unless you change cams.
Its true changing rocker arms can give a little more LIFT sooner in the duration, but this is also true of changing over to a roller cam (hence why they make more power with more vacuum... usually)

Now while lift is important for flow, duration is important for where the best flow is going to occur. the more duration, typically the later in the RPM range your peak flow will occur. this is why matching parts is so important, and is why you cant stick a cam somone else used to get 400RWHP into your stock engine and expect 400RWHP also.

now your heads seem to flow better than my old performer RPMS, according to the site that did the flow bench. Edelbrock makes 420 horsepower (flywheel) with their RPM heads, and a 234/244 @ .050 duration cam.
That was my original, very very first buildup i ever did. proven 420Horsepower 400 Ft. lbs of torque. I still have the heads, but now they flow well over 250CFM...

Anyways. by sticking, say an XE262 cam in (218 / 224 @ .050) from the original RPM cam (234/244) I basically moved my peak flow to sooner in the RPM range, causing my motor to make roughly the same amount of torque, but since it occured sooner than before it fell off quicker therefore making less horsepower.

Follow? Duration is where you get the RPMS from, and RPMS + Cylinder pressure is where you get horsepower from. cylinder pressure comes from torque, which comes from Air and Fuel, which come from... follow still ?

So if you want to make 400+ horsepower you need a cam that can flow more air, later in the RPM range. the further you go however, the worse your idle characteristics, the worse your fuel economy, the worse your low-mid range torque, the worse your vacuum and drivability will be. but if you can live with this, then go for it.
-----
<b>
Can someone run the Xe274 and then the Xe284 so I can understand a difference as well as see where the powerband is at to get the correct converetr???? </b>

Speaking of stall and gearing, they should match too. If i read correctly your going to be using 3.42's... typically you want your flash stall to put you as close as possible to your peak torque, so the multiplication inherent to torque converters can do its thing and lift your front end and push you into your peak horsepower so you can shift and so on.

But you need to consider your driving habits. do you want fuel economy? do you care about driving this thing around town? and more importantly, what cam will the motor have?

I think you should decide what cam you want, and it should perform to your expectations of idle quality drivability and fuel economy. once you have that figured out, you may decide that stock stall is enough after all.

 

Looks like I'll go with the xe274 and 1.6 roller rockers. My heads will handle .520 of lift safely so this should be perfect.

BTW- I said the same thing you just said about higher ratio rockers not changing the duration but adding lift in another post and someone corrected me and said they had some kinda sheets or whatever to prove it.

I always thought the same thing you are saying.

I'm not really getting how Vortec haeds and the TFS heads I got give almost the same hp and torque #'s considering that the flow #'s are so different.

Also, I got the CNC version heads and on the trickflow site they rate them at 257 cfm on the intake and 186 on the exhaust. It's a considerable improvement on the exhaust side.

 

<b>Looks like I'll go with the xe274 and 1.6 roller rockers. My heads will handle .520 of lift safely so this should be perfect. </b>

alright, now do you like fuel economy? thats an important question before you decide what stall you will get.

other than that, everything else speaks for itself. the gearing (3.42) should be adequate, although 3.73's (while pinching fuel economy) would be a more desirable choice IMO on that one...

as for stall, if you like fuel economy then 2400 is the max i would say, from personal experience with 9.5" converters, once you hit the 2800-3200 range it drastically changes your fuel useage the second you move from a light.

now that cam with the slightly higher (3.42) gearing would probably benefit alot more from the higher stall (2800) simply because it will take you longer to get up to the RPM your engine is going to want...

If it was MY buildup and i had that cam i would go with 2800 Stall 9.5" converter, with lockup, and probably 3.42's as well (or 3.73's with 28" tall tires = 3.42) simply because i personally like fuel economy and 2400 stall just doesnt DO it for me anymore.

My TBI / blown 355 with 3.73's, 2800 Stall 9.5" lockup, usually pulled about 10MPG city but OMG watch out on the highway it would net me 20-22 MPG with that lockup. around town i could have done better if i used the lockup but it was such a pain to keep switching on and off..

now im probably getting a hobb's switch that switchs ground to it @ 13" of vacuum or more, that way no more switching. im guessing you will need / have a lockup switch already? highly necessary with a 700R4.

edit: and i also highly recommend Dana from Pro-built do your transmission. never, <b> NEVER</b> have i heard a actual legitimate complaint about his service nor his product, except the occasional "I wish dana wasnt so busy so he could finish mine" which occurs when 6 people at once decide they want pro-built 700R4's, and usually only lasts about 2 days since Dana is good at what he does. nay, REALLY good at what he does.

 

First of all, you can buy a 700R4 from many places that can handle the kind of HP you are looking at... I have a 9 year old Level 10 trans that is doing just fine. Converter choice depends on a few factors: streetability, power curve, application, weight, and gearing.

As for the comment about 400hp in a 350 having to rev up to 6000rpm to achieve is pure BS - my 350 made a track proven 390hp at 5500rpm without any extra tricks (TQ converter lockup or whatever). I don't see how if I locked up the converter and ran a 1.6 ratio roller rocker how it couldn't hit 400-410hp at the same rpm (5500). It probably makes 420-430lb-ft o'torque as it is.

Just to let everyone know who isn't aware, motors typically make their peak TQ at their peak VE rpm, which can run over 100% in a tuned intake motor - the TPI is a good example. Getting 100% VE at the HP peak is a totally different story - way too many variables. You can get 105-110% VE at the TQ peak on a good motor combo. The hard part is preserving as much VE as the rpms rise to the HP peak. And yes it follows the normal hp/tq rule, but bumping up everything with more TQ not only equals more hp, but also more power "under the curve", which double helps acceleration - read Lingenfelter's book and you will get all the details.

 

This pf course is NOT true and can be proven false with only
a trip to a real dyno and not some simulator. I will be posting
more on this later.

 

What is it with you people trying to shoot me down 7 months later when you didnt even completelly read the post.

First of all, there are VERY VERY FEW 355's running TFS heads or similar making more than 400+RWHP before 6000 RPMS... in fact you would be hard pressed to find even one AT ALL. In fact show me one N/A 355 Running less than 6000 RPMS putting down 400+RWHP and ill give you a cookie.

Dont give me that track proven BS either... Show me Dynojet numbers or something with a motor similar to HIS. I didnt say ANY MOTOR I said THAT MOTOR. You sound like all the TPI owners saying how their motors make over 350RWHP when there isnt a single board member making over 350RWHP with TPI... PROVE IT

and its NOT SOME SIMULATOR those are ACTUAL DYNO NUMBERS FROM COMP CAMS WEBSITE I've only used FACTUAL information to try to help, and IN FACT with the size cams he is checking out there isnt a single one making over 400 FWHP... let ALONE RWHP.

PLEASE understand the entire post before you make a fool of yourself, and make sure you check the date...

 

make a fool of myself

1)

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/116_0311_clash/

2)

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te...98/index3.html

355 made 397 hp at 5,000 rpm
421 hp at 5500 rpm
433hp at 6,000 RPM

Aug 2003 Chevy High performance mag has article 284 ,490 cam

3) Another project of CHP was Miserly mouse which went
on to make 426 hp below 6000 RPM



I have been building SBC 350's and 400's for over 19 years
I have personally built a 355 with Vortec heads and comp cam
that went 12.15 @ 110mph in
a 3200 lb ( less driver) Monte Carlo SS with 3;73 gears.

I'd say it had more than 400hp never shifted over 6000 rpm

I just sold my 89 firebird that run 11.2 at 119 mph on pump gas.

I've seen some guys trying to show me desktop dyno #'s
saying they're mild cammed Big block would make 650 hp
as laughable as it is. and seen others being severly underrated
so I don't buy computer generated #'s.

I do agree that it would take at least a 274 cam to comfortably
eclipse the 400hp mark. but 400 hp below 6000 rpm can be
done quite easily with affordable off the shelf parts.


BTW nothing personal at all.

Keep your cookie.

 

Naw you deserve a cookie, even though your still off the mark.

All of those numbers are perfectly fine, but they are all flywheel rated numbers. Put those engines behind a drivetrain and tell me just TELL Me which one makes over 400RWHP?

Not a single one will, unless you hooked a driveshaft directly to the tire that is.


and I DID SAY RWHP...

<b>"First of all, there are VERY VERY FEW 355's running TFS heads or similar making more than 400+RWHP before 6000 RPMS... in fact you would be hard pressed to find even one AT ALL. In fact show me one N/A 355 Running less than 6000 RPMS putting down 400+RWHP and ill give you a cookie. "</b>

But you can STILL have a cookie, just cause Im a nice guy. Nothing personal, of course.

 

Man you were talking base hp at the beginning even mid way through the post now after it is outright proven it can
be done its RWHP?

 

Ok wait, wayyyy back when this post was actually up-to-date I must have meant RWHP because it IS obvious to me that it takes more than 6000 rpm to generate 400RWHP from a N/A 355...

What difference does it make? I meant RWHP, Even holley has base maps for their commander 950 for 350's making 419HP @ 5500 RPMS... im not dumb and i know your not calling me dumb but i would NOT have meant base horsepower... Im just used to RWHP in all things?

after all what does it matter how much power your motor makes if you cant get it to the ground? in my world its better to have a low-output motor and a great converter/drivetrain/gear setup than a monty's motor and a stock drivetrain.

what was this about again? 500Horsepower and 700R4 if you want one of those Call DANA at PROBUILT and you will have your 500HP 700R4.

flyin89
I have much respect for you and ill raise the flag on myself if it makes your feel better. for all i remember 7 months ago maybe i DID mean flywheel power, and was just a retard at that time. in fact i look back at some of my posts from 2 years ago and I almost laugh. ok i do laugh

 

can we please get back to the transmission discussion?

and when did people start using fwhp for flywheel horsepower? It's all over the place at the camaroZ28.com board and its pissing me off, nothing I can do about it, I'll just stay mad

 

Kingtalon I have no problem with you I don't think your a retard or
anything else. I have read a few of your post and think your
well on your way to becoming a great car hobbyist. Good info
and helping one another is what the board is all about.

 

I totally agree. Key point here is 350-355ci, NA, RWHP, and before 6000rpms. That is crazy rare ... and, personally, I haven't seen it with a motor of that configuration that is in an F-Body.

Tim

 

Since the debate continues, here's what I did:

Motor is in the car now, not yet fired up. I went with the XE 274 and 1.6 Rollers.

I WAS NEVER TALKING ABOUT RWHP. I meant flywheel. 400rwhp on an auto would be over 460hp at the crank. I am expecting between 425-450 hp from the motor. I am fine with that, then a little 150 shot and I'll be all giggles.

I got the 700r4 kit from Dana at Probuilt, and installed a trans cooler, drain plug kit, and Vigilante 2800 stall with it.

I haven't decided on the rear to use yet but for now the posi 10 bolt with Richmond gears will have to do.

You can see pics of my motor and install here:
https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=218952

Thanks for all the help and input guys! She should be fired up here in the next couple days!!!

 

Kingtal0n: You were originally talking about crank HP, not RWHP!

400rwhp not possible below 6000rpm on a n/a 350ci engine:

Bang, that theory is dead

That was only 5800 rpm. And it meets all given requirements.

But wait, it gets better!

This one eclipses the 400rwhp mark at 5000rpm

But wait, it gets even better I'll post that link if anyone provides a valid arguement...

 

First of all thats not a THIRDGEN that motor is in. newer cars, less driveline loss, blah blah

Try again. Find me a thirdgen making more than 400RWHP before 6000 RPMS with a 355 or smaller N/A Motor, and you get a cookie. THE COOKIE WILL NOT CRUMBLE!!! but it may get stale...
On the other hand, those motors are making some serious power there on factory shortblocks... thats pretty sick if you ask me. you may get a cookie yet.

You guys are a trip.

 

ROFL! You're an idiot. The drivetrain difference between a 3rd gen and an LS1 car is minimal. The rear is the same, the driveshafts are the same, and the transmissions are very similar. Less drivetrain loss, not likely. I know I didn't pick up any RWHP when I put in an LS1 rear, LS1 wheels, and an LS1 driveshaft

Since when did you say this had to be a thirdgen? First it was 400HP from a 350, then it was 400RWHP, and now it has to be thirdgen too. Too much backtracking for me. Nowhere in your theory of yours did you say that this pertains to thirdgens only - give me a break dude! You're wrong, admit it or look stupid arguing it.

BTW - Like posted above, I do have another link to a n/a 355 making over 440rwhp at only 5100rpm, and guess what... Its in a thirdgen. You'll probably shoot that one down too saying the extra 5ci voids the stipulations, or the fact that is not a street car disqualifies it for some reason only known to you.

And if you'd really like me to boast a little I can direct you towards an entire magazine issue of 347ci na/ motors making this impossible HP. But I guess non-SBC engines don't count either...

 

no wrong wrong wrong... see none of those you mentioned have flux capacitors so they are disqualified..

nice try but you dont get a cookie

better luck next time!