TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

would it be ok to swap a WC T-5 into my car? how long will it last

nsimmons

Ive been flogging mine for 10k km's and I know the previous owner beat on it with a 350. No problems

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

are you pretty hard on it? cuz i take my car to the track alot. i always use the clutch to shift but i shift it hard.

nsimmons

Its a daily driver, but i drive it pretty hard. Especially when im late for work. Get an after market shifter with stops so you dont over shift it, i have a hurst.

It all comes down to traction, i can drop it at 5000 rpms but it would never hook up it'll just light up the tires. I loose traction in third if the rpms are up and i floor it.

With your power level i dont think you'll have much problem. Honestly i'd worry about the clutch more. I can smell clutch if im too rough.

The only problem i have is the occasional hard shift into 2nd, the sycros are questionable, but i suspect this was to the 19 year old i bought it from just jamming it into gear. The flywheel and old clutch were badly burned and scored when i took the engine apart, he wasnt gentle. Mines a non-wc btw.

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

thanks

rbjones

Hangtown--are you gonna keep the stock motor?

custom88camaro

I have a v6 tranny in my camaro. My car is no slouch, I have done some traction mods as well. I have been beating on it for some time now, no breaks. I got it used in a 2.8 mpfi car. I got the whole car for free. I put in the tranny, and it has had a nasty grinding sound since the first test drive. I think it is a bad bearing or something. I just keep beating on it, sooner or later it will probably grenade, but so far..........It takes a lickin and keeps on shiftin.

DEFINITELY get an aftermarket shifter. I have the B&M model, and it works awesome. My T-5 sporting mustang friend drove my car and he couldn't stop talking about how "positive" the shift felt compared to his stock one.

D's89IROCZ

My 305 blew my tranny . When you get them grinding noises...it aint to far from then ....BANG! check my wwwwat the bottom to see the picture of my T-5 input shaft I ruined I shattered second ...and sheared the synchros

Tremo

Trav, you'd be better off swapping in a T56.

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

wanna help?

FndmntlsOfPimpn

same thing here tranny ground into 2nd since i bought it one day it started grinding into 3 when i was hittin some gears less than 5 min later



BANG!


But its time for tko now itll be nice n set fer next summer

Rockin-Iroc

What is the going rate for a T56 typically?

If you want another option, the Muncie is a remarkably strong transmission. Before you dismiss it as a stupid idea, Gear Vendors makes a 0.78 overdrive for the Muncie and it replaces the tail housing. Muncies are common as dirt, just make sure you have it checked out. The GV overdrive is about $1800, and handles 1400 lb-ft. You won't be blowing up this combo!

Another option is a Richmond 6 speed. They also have a 5-speed, but 5th is a 1:1 and is steep in gears 1-4. That's meant for cars with tall rear ends. The 5-speed is around $2200 last time I checked, and the 6-speed is another grand. (Same as 5-speed but with an OD gear). The Richmonds handle around 450 lb-ft, about the same as a T56.

A third option is Ford's Tremec TKO. These things are tough. Vipers use a version of them, but they're most common on the supercharged Cobra Mustangs. They are available for under 3 grand and I've heard they're up to 600 lb-ft ratings for them now.
The companies that sell them can convert them for GM now. Unlike the Richmonds and Muncies, they're top loaders.

Tremo

I think the WC T5 is only good for about 300 ft-lbs. A stout 350 will overstress it. BANG! That's why you find them only behind 305s from the factory. If you "spend a lot of time at the track", then you definitely want a T56, you'll blow a T5 for sure.

If you're going to do an auto-manual swap, might as well do it right the first time, else you'll have to be fixing it when you blow it.

You can probably pick up a T56 at the boneyard. Open it up and inspect, maybe replace the bearings and synchros, and get some synthetic lube for it.

You have all the other needed stuff? New clutch and brake pedals? Clutch hydraulics and clutch? Bellhousing? Shifter? Flywheel?

You'll probably also need to do some reprogramming of the PROM in the computer.

Muncie? Yeah baby, I remember the close ratio rock crusher that was in an old friends 68 Z28. That 302 was a screamer, all the go fast goodies.

rbjones

Well, depends on what you want it to do. You can get the WC T5 to handle 450 hp/ft. lbs. for about $700 and not have all that T56 swap hassle, save 50 lbs. and shift quicker, too. If you're heavy into brute hp, go with the T56.

aaron7

iTrader: (7)

I've been through 3 WC T5's. They are junk, and most people will tell you that! (along with tranny shops that laugh when you ask them if they fix them )

Get a T56 or a well built auto.

rjmcgee

I have a year on mine that came from 100,000 + mile donor. No problems. My opinion is that the if you get the torque arm off of the back of the tranny it has a better life span without something pulling up on the back of the tailhousing when accelerating. This weekend I blew the crap out of my Auburn posi unit in a well set up rear end and the tranny is still fine. It's not just going to blow apart the first time you stand on the gas, unless you can't use the clutch pedal.

bowtie350_428

I have gone through 5... Well 4 and one rebuilt.

12secformula

You know, when I had the 89 formula I praised the T56....but I thinks its more of a hassle than its worth...especially if you are trying to make your car lighter. If i was to do it again, i would most likely use the T-5 I had, and bought the g-force kit for it. Sure its alittle more money up front, but it will support more than a T56 when built. To build a T56 of the same caliber it would be lots more money. The T56 is heavier(about 70lbs), got that damn reverse clutch operation..which makes the clutches OUTRAGEOUSLY priced, and its so big its a pain in the *** to install. The only advantage I see with the T56 is the .5 overdrive....which means you can cruise at high speeds easier. The problem with that is you really need steep gears to be able to pull big hills on the highway, or try to pass a car quickly without downshifting. Hey..this is just my opinion tho.


Kyle

TKOPerformance

The stock WC T5 is officially rated at 300 lbs/ft. I have seen them live a lot loner than most people want you to believe. The key, as mentioned, is traction. If you want to run slicks and good 60ft times at the track a stock trans isn't for you.

Upgrading to super alloy gears will solve the problem everyone has experienced with 2nd or 3rd gear grenading during a powershift. Super alloy gears are $450 for the set with a brand new GM input shaft. This is 1st, 2nd, 3rd, the input, and the cluster. I've been doing a fair number of these conversions for GM guys lately. The whole trans built on your core, to your door can be as cheap as $880 as long as nothing that isn't normally repalced isn't damaged. A T5 modifed like this is good for limited strip duty on street tires, and should take 400-450 lbs/ft. in a street car with no problem.

An other option is G-Force internals, which are good to at least 500 lbs/ft and 600 HP. There are guys running 9s with these T5s with no breakage problems. These are about $1,500 to your door built on your core. This is still a fully synchronized trans, so it can be driven on the street, just like a stock T5. These things are brutally strong.

A mid-level option would be a Tremec swap. You've got the 3550, TKO, TKO II, TR500, and TR600 to choose from. Power ratings are up to 600 lbs/ft. for some models. Cost is going to be slightly more than a G-Force T5, and slightly less than a T56 swap.

The T56 is a great trans. The swap will cost you at least $2,000, and to go from auto to manual probably more like $2,500. If you use aftermarket clutch, flywheel, shifter, bellhousing, etc. the cost can rise even more. Stock an LT1 T56 is rated to 450 lbs/ft. They are heavier than a T5, about 50 lbs or so. Also, to really take advantage you need deeper rear gears. I'd say 3.73s are mandatory, and if you've got an engine with some RPM potential beyond the stock TPI 4:11s would be even better. Without the gear swap you will typically lose some off the line grunt because 1st gear is only 2.66:1 compared to 2.95:1 in the T5, or 3.06:1 in a 700R4. The 6th gear will cut your final drive in half, so on the highway those 4:11s become 2.06s. There's a lot to the swap, and it isn't a 100% bolt in, though it is very close.

For swap ease I would say stick with one of these options. The Richmond 5 and 6 speeds require a divorced torque arm and proprietary crossmember, which increases the cost, and adds to the swap hassle.

I'm not trying to sway you one way or another, just present the facts. The T5 is going to be the cheapest way to go to a manual for your 3rd gen, even if you build it to take massive power. The T56 is pretty strong stock, and pegs the way cool factor, but there is a price to pay.

BTW, stay away from Muncies. For one, these transmissions are cost prohibitive now, and a lot of the ones out there are junk anway. The status of the classic car market has made M21s and M22s very pricey. I sold a fully rebuilt M21 for $850 two years ago, and indications are that I could get over $1,00 today. An M22? Good luck fining one for less than $2,500, even one that needs a full rebuild or has broken gears. Now add in the cost of the overdrive and you're beyond T56 territory.

Second, these things aren't as strong as most people want you to believe. Trust me, I cut my teeth rebuilding them. I must have rebuilt the M22 in my Dad's Chevelle ten times in two years. That wheels up launch on slicks used to blow 1st gear and the cluster to smitherines. If it managed to live through the launch there was a chance that it would strip the input shaft and ruin the back end of the cluster at the big end of the track. Or, to put it another way, when Bill "Grumpy" Jenkins used to race Grumpy's Toy he had enough spare M22s to change the trans after every race. Not that they always broke, but he just didn't want to take the chance. Muncies were good for their day, hey they were better than a Saginaw, but today they are best reserved for restored classics. The go fast guys can do it a lot cheaper and more reliably.

Also, I recommend Pro 5.0 shifters for any trans that I build. Hurst and B&M have good reps, and anything is better than stock, but IMO the Pro 5.0 is the best thing going. A good shifter will go a long way towards making any trans last longer.

12secformula

My thoughts EXACTLY. The money saved with a T5 can be used elsewhere IMO. Like I said, I loved the T56, and it was wicked cool having a 6th gear, but if I was to do it again, I would build the T5. Price the T56 clutched compared to a T5 clutch of the same grade...most are at least $200 more for the same T5 clutch. Besides that, changing a T5 by yourself in a driveway is pretty do-able....try that with a t56..not so easy thats for sure. I have seen my fair shair of broken stock T5's...heck my car had 3 break..so you take your chances...but I am sure a built T5 would take a beating.

Rockin-Iroc

I agree with almost everything said above. The irrational muscle car craze, while it has made my classics more valuable, has also tended to make buying a muscle car, "unobtainium". Wanna nice Mopar? Forget it. Especially if it's got a big block. They cost more than Corvettes now, which aren't cheap themselves.

That said, I have to digress on the cost of Muncie ownership. Yes there is a lot of junk out there, after 30 or 40 years of use and abuse. But don't think good cores can't be found. Buy a rebuild kit for a couple hundred, and have at it.

...OR, buy a new one. http://www.5speeds.com/store/html/4speeds.html
This company, GearZone, sells BRAND NEW M22 Muncie variants starting at $1675. Nothing is rebuilt. It is all new. And like you said, when new, they were pretty good. Good enough for big block torque. Not that they can't be blown up, but where else are you gonna find a Rock Crusher, NEW no less, for $1675.
Yeah, if you're Grumpy Jenkins drag racing, not only are you gonna have spare M-22's in stock, but you're gonna have a couple of spare motors too. Not too many 3rd gen dudes are going to be making Grumpy's level of power though either!

In fact, I know the M-21 is not going to live behind my Corvette's L-88 427 for very long, but it'll live during the break in miles. I'd like to replace it for a Gear Zone M-22, or a Jerico transmission (but they're much more expensive). More gears would be great, but when you start making very serious torque, above 450 lb-ft (which isn't hard to do on a big block), choices become very limited.

TKOPerformance

I've looked at a lot of "core" Muncies lately, and have yet to find one that isn't junk. Just because somethign isn't broken doesn't mean that the internals are good. A major problem with these transmissions now is that most of the gears have lost their surface harness over the years. Everything looks great, all the gears are nice, the engagement teeth aren't trashed, and maybe you even found one that had a good reverse idler and reverse gear (good luck, but hey this a fantasy world, right?). You rebuild the trans with new bearings, thrust washers, etc. Then you take it to the strip and waste it with a near stock 350. Why? Simple, over the years the gears have lost their surface hardness, which was only a thousandth or so thick. The inside of the gear is a softer material. While it may take 450 lbs/ft to ruin a brand new Muncie it may only take 275 lbs/ft to ruin one with gears that have past their prime. This is the problem with the used Muncies that are on the market now. The last one I rebuilt was parts from three different transmissions to make one good one.

I've seen the Gearzone Muncies, and they are decent. The case has been improved, which is a major step forward in strength. Still, at $1,675 you could have a G-Force T5 which will bolt right in and is stronger. No Torque arm issues, no driveshaft issues.

I grew up on Muncies. I respect them for what they were, at the time they were new. Times change, and improvements in design and metallurgy have allowed manufacturers to build transmissions that are lighter, stronger, and have overdrive. You get sick of your hands smelling like gear oil all the time. That smell just doesn't want to go away! Oh, and women love it.

Rockin-Iroc

Women love it??? What in the...

Well, aside from that, I've had a couple of Muncies in my Corvette, first an M20 wide ratio which ran behind my very healthy 350, and an M21 close ratio, which I traded up to with a friend of mine and it now runs behind my 427, which is in the same car.

And I wasn't gentle either. The 427 is at least 11.25:1, but I need to do a cc check on it to know for sure. It's solid roller cammed, Gold Claw carbureted, Edelbrock intake, Hooker sidepipe supercomp headers, etc. This car can do a burn out until you get tired of it, and will go sideways if you punch it at speed.

By your statement, my Muncie shouldn't have lived behind the big block, which is around 600 lb-ft of torque by the way. But it does.

So your bad experiences aside, I don't see anything wrong with a Muncie. Sorry, but I would NEVER trust my Corvette to a T5, I don't care WHO rebuilt it. Muncies are one of the few transmissions that was always able to handle a big block's reputation for torque. It's one speed too few and first gear is too tall, but it has always had a decent reputation. Not saying they can't be blown up, but several of my hotrodder friends still run Muncies behind anything from 455 ponchos to wild supercharged 350's and I simply don't see them blowing up left and right, like you describe.

So sorry, I can't qualify or agree with your statements regarding the Muncie.

TKOPerformance

Gear oil, women love the smell of gear oil. No, they don't.

The Muncie in your Corvette lived because you never hooked the car up. To break a trans you have to load it, and when the wheels break loose when you tap the throttle you aren't loading it. On slicks you would have broken it, or the IRS rear (most likely this would go first). There is actually a special section in the NHRA rulebook concerning Corvette IRS rears. There's a place called Tom's Differentials that uses 12-bolt gears and has severe duty parts for the Vette IRS that are NHRA legal, otherwise you have to swap to a solid axel once you run over a certain 1/4 time.

My uncle had a '67 Vette that was a very similar car. It had a 427 L88 with 3 deuces backed by an M22 Muncie. Sidepipes, the whole nine yards. It too was brutally, wickedly fast and used to go through tires like nothing I've ever seen. A family friend of ours Bob Gold took the car to the Vette nationals at Carlisel one year, when my uncle was ready to sell it. He ran the car at the drag racing event on slicks and pulled 11.50s out of it. Nothing broke, but if he'd tried to do that all season something undoubtedly would have. Also, at any other track he would have made one pass and gotten tossed out for lack of safety gear.

I wouldn't run a T5 in your Corvette either. I'm certainly not advocating that. A G-Force T5 with the best mainshaft they make would probably live, but for a car like that I'd go with a Jerico or a Tremec first. Why take the chance?

This is what I am saying. The T5 has a not entirely deserved bad rep. The Muncie has an overly glorious one. I still stand by what I originally said, the impetus for this whole debate, that in a 3rd gen F-body I would run one of three transmissions: upgraded T5, Tremec, or T56. Also, everything I'm saying is with the dragstrip in mind. In a street car a lot of stuff will live a lifetime because there's no traction. Like I said, the key is load. On the street you won't load a Muncie enough to break it, heck you probably won't load a T5 enough to break it, but when the slicks go on the metal starts to fly.

Then there's the issue of cost and ease of swapping. A T5 is a total bolt in deal, regardless of which guts are in it. The T56 is a near bolt in deal, and is good to 450 lbs/ft stock. The Tremec is also not a difficult swap, and you can get one rated up to 600 lbs/ft. These options are going to be cheaper and easier than trying to swap in a Muncie. Like I said they have their place, and you and your friends are in it: classic musclecars.

Speed still costs money. How fast do you want to go? As fast as I can for the money I've got.

anondude13

I would swap in a T56 if it didn't weigh twice as much as a T5. I say just replace the T5 when/if it breaks, they aren't too expensive or hard to replace. If you plan on hardcore dragging and low 60 fts then I'd say go auto anyways.

Rockin-Iroc

Okay. Your clarification I agree with.
I don't think my M21 would live either if I ever hooked up. I couldn't believe how quick that 427 was when I first put it in. I knew I'd have problems with the transmission eventually. Just testing it out and watching the gauges, I soft-shoed one of my launches to minimize wheel spin and still spun them through the intersection, ran it up to 7000 in first and 2nd gear, shifted into third and glanced at the speedo. I was going 120 mph on a city street! So I slammed on the brakes and looked in the mirror for any sign of cops that might have seen my antics. Instead, almost a quarter mile back, I saw two heavily decalled and winged ricers that were apparently lined up next to me, battling each other to try and catch up to me, and they hadn't even gotten through the intersection yet!!! I hadn't heard them over the thunder of my wide open 4" sidepipes! Too bad the motor didn't live long. It was a crate motor and it died a quick death. Bearings went away.
I am rebuilding it now for higher compression and EVERYTHING is ceramic coated that is exposed to combustion flame. A better solid roller cam too.

But that brings me back to the drivetrain. I know that's my weak point. I've been watching that 12-bolt conversion, but currently, the tallest gearing they make is 3.90, which makes for a nice drag racer but a little too short-geared for anything else. They're working on a 3.73 but it's not out yet.

And I'd love a Tremec, but I understand the conversion for a Corvette is a little bit involved. Another problem are the sanctioning bodies for some of the open road races I want to enter, such as the Silver State Classic and Big Bend. I have to see if they would allow a transmission that didn't originally come in a '68 Corvette. I know some of the classic racing bodies have rules against that.

That's why I was looking at the new Rock Crushers. Because then there's no question as to the legality of it in the rulebooks. Also no permanent alterations to a valuable Corvette. And overdrive is available for those, courtesy of Gearvendors.

Thanks for your feedback, it was useful to me too.
I now return the hijacked thread to its owner...

TKOPerformance

Way to show the ricers what for! That's a great story. My oldest cousin used to take my uncles '67 out when my uncle was out of town. One time I was riding in it with him and we were doing maybe 40-50 MPH in 4th gear on a street that eventually came out of a populated area onto a straight, much less populated section of road. My cousin says "here we go!" downshifts directly to 2nd and nails the throttle. I'm not really sure what happened next, but we were facing the other direction surrounded by a haze of tire smoke. That thing was brutal. I miss it...

Yeah, a 3.90 gear with a 4-speed is a little steep, and with all that torque you don't need the gear! The problem with the 12-bolt gearset modification is that it is designed specifically for racing. That's why it was only initially available in steep ratios. I've wondered over the years how hard it would be to fabricate a 9" center section designed to take the rest of the IRS components from the Vette rear. I've seen guys run similar setups on long travel IFS systems on 4X4 trucks. It's definately trick, and the 9" centersection would give you the availability of gear ratios from 2.xx up to 6.xx I wonder...

Like I said, the new Muncies made by Gearzone are better than the originals. The case and mid plate are beefed up to help keep the shafts from seperating under load. That's the cause of all the Muncie's troubles. The M22 was designed in 1965 specifically for road racing Vettes (trying to beat the Cobras). The originals were actually M21s with the casting numbers milled off and new numbers hand stamped (those are worth big, big bucks). The first thing they changed was the countershaft. They increased the diameter from 7/8" to 1" (later even M21s got this upgrade). Then they made the gears harder and reduced the helix angle. This made the gearset stronger, so that when the case flexed the gears were strong enough not to shear like the weaker, quiter M21 gears. If you have to run an "original" trans I'd say go with the Gearzone unit. If you can get away with the Gearvendors overdrive great, or just have two driveshafts and swap back and forth for street and race. The Gearvendors units are brutally strong.

The problem with the Vettes and swaps is that the Vette has always been a seperate platform. It doesn't share a lot in common with anything else GM builds. The trans tunnel may be too narrow to accomdate a Tremec. I would definately think a T56 would hit. I've read of problems with the T56 fitting into cars that originally came with TH400s, and that is a big trans.

Rockin-Iroc

I think you're right. The Vette has a VERY small trans and driveshaft tunnel. When I got a 3" custom driveshaft made for it, there was literally no room for a driveshaft loop. I could build a driveshaft retainer, but a broken shaft would still cause some fiberglass damage because I can't get a loop above the driveshaft. The trans tunnel is tiny too. The Muncie is a small transmission, as are the Richmonds. They have to be to fit in a Corvette.

The Richmond is a really cool idea. Basically, it's a Doug Nash 5-speed, but Richmond gears bought them out and they still make them. They're 1:1 in 5th, but gears 1-4 are very steep, and are meant to be used with a rear end no shorter than a 3.36. They also make a 6 speed, with gear 6 overdriven. The only problem with the Richmonds are that they aren't quite strong enough for a big block. They handle about 450 lb-ft of torque, and most big blocks exceed that easily. That's a great choice for a healthy small block though, and would even work really well for anyone that wants to use it on a 3rd gen F-body.

It's a side loader, like the Muncie though, so the shifter location might have to be altered for use in an F-body. But that wouldn't stop me from using it.

They're about $1800 for a 5 speed and 3 grand for a 6 speed and use a dry clutch.