i know you can find 700r4's everywhere that have been beefed up, and made to handle 600+HP for pretty cheap, like 600 bucks or maybe a bit more...my question is, does anybody know of a place where you can get the T5 trans beefed to handle that much HP, i think they make rebuild kits and whatnot. also for those people that have them, how much can they be had for??

 

i found the G-Force kit but its about a bagillion dollars....does anybody know of a performance T5 or performance rebuild kit for way cheaper??

 

you get what you pay for. you could always go for a tremec, but then you have problems with mounting, ds length, shifter location, and i think thats it. another option would be a t56 swap, but thats not trouble free either

 

damn...guess i gotta stay with an automatic...

 

No you dont...

http://gforcetransmissions.com/tran_gt-5.asp

You can get the rebuild kit for $1095 plus the cost of getting someone to install the kit. Or you can put in a T-56. Or you can put in a TKO...

I like the T-5 option myself because I dont have to modify anything to install a T-5 (because there's a T-5 already in it ).

 

- Yeah, it's not cheap, but as said above if you do it yourself the kit is the cheapest way to go.

I've also read about a kit you can get from Hanlon motorsports (sp) to upgrade a T-5 also that sounds pretty nifty...

 

how hard is it to do it by myself??? i'm a senior enrolled in an autoclass in highschool, adn i have a pretty knowledgeable teacher...you think me and him would be able to tackle the project??

 

it shouldnt be any problem in that case. check out www.5speeds.com for the kit and they offer a stabilizer plate too

 

I'm working with TKO Performance to get a built T5. Not the same as a TKO transmission, but just as good to me. Rating will be around 450hp and cost will be around $800-900.

 

NICE

 

There is the World Class T5 which is stronger than a standard T5.

 

yea they still can't safely handle over 300HP, so you would still have to get it built up a bit if you really wanna beat on it...the WC is hard as hell to get your hands on too if i'm not mistaken...

 

not really, iirc everything 89 and newer has them

 

They put the WC T5 in the 88 IROCs as well, I have one.

 

First, I'd like to know where you've seen 700R4s capable of handling 600HP selling for $600. I spent that on parts alone for my 700R4, and it's officially rated at 575HP per Dana at ProBuilt. That didn't include the converter either. The cheapest 700R4 I've seen advertised was just under $1,000 with a converter and that was a stock rebuild. I know a guy locally who will do a stock rebuild for $350, but that's still stock, and still doesn't have a converter wtih it. A tough 700R4 is going to cost you about the same as a tough manual trans when all is said and done.

You can upgrade a T-5 to super alloy gears for $450 in parts if you can do the labor yourself. A full rebuild kit is another $170. A properly rebuilt trans using these parts will handle about 450 lbs/ft. of torque as long as you don't get crazy with clutch dumps and slicks. Even G-Force won't lay a number on their parts. The quote is around 600HP, but no torque figures are given. I'm not knocking G-Force either, I know exactly why they won't do it, it's because it's tough to say with any certainty and not have 100 people send their trans back saying that they blew it apart with only 500 lbs/ft. Making definite break points for driveline components is tough, and anyone who's been involved in motorsports for any length of time will tell you that. Plenty of guys have broken modified driveline parts with stock engines, and lots of people have made stock drivelines live behind modified engines. It all comes down to the safety margin. The safety margain on a stock T-5 behind a 383 might be a 50% chance that you'll break it, but that goes down to only 3% if it's a G-Force T-5, and to only 0.5% if it's got the upgraded mainshaft. How much safety margain you want to live with is often determined by budget, and as they say: "Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?"

 

well the trans that could hold 600HP is one off ebay, i'm sure the figures are a bit high, but its gonna be much better than stock...but that is a good point about rebuilding each trans...they are gonna cost about the same when everything is said and done with....but i would like to have a T5 just for the fun factor, and I think i'm gonna need a stronger tranny anyways when i throw a turbo or supercharger on my motor in the near future...i thought the T5 swap was a lot cheaper than the T56, but its turnin out to be otherwise...if i swapped in a stock T56, wouldn't that hold all the power I would ever wanna throw at it? also it has 1 more gear to keep my gas mileage way way down...i'm relaly stuck in a dilema now....what do you guys think i should do? the most power i will ever be putting out is prolly 450 crank HP if that...cuz i'll be at about 355 with a supercharger, and maybe a bit more after i port everythign out, and maybe add a mild cam...

 

Just for info purposes, I've spoken to the VP (Mike Long) of G Force via several emails, and they do claim a torque rating on the G Force T-5 upgrade at 500 ftlbs. And this was after I had the trans for a year. He actually emailed me to see if I was satisfied with it!! I was shocked to say the least....

I only have 490 ftlbs. at the fly myself, and less at the rear wheels so I guess I'll never know if it holds that much really. Not to mention I haven't tried running slicks or have a posi. - Yet

"Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?" - True statement.....

 

my t-5 has held 406ftlbs no problem so far, just a reg WC t-5 with a couple hardened gears and shafts...

 

If the fun factor rules in your choice of tranny, the reinforced WC T5 like TKOPerformance's for under a grand keeps it fun while handling lots of power for the street. The T56 seems sort of specialized, like an overdrive so high you have to run a really low rear end or have EFI or both, plus all that swap hassle, where the T5 is simpler, cheaper and lighter. If you go over 450 hp/ft. lbs. you're in pretty rare territory anyway so you should be prepared to spend some real bucks for a very special tranny. That's fun maybe once, or if you're rich.
Right now we're in the midst of pulling the 400 out of a Suburban and switching cranks with a 350 out in the barn to make a 383 torquer for the Suburban with a 700R4, then put the 350 crank in the 400 block to make a revving small block for the Camaro--it seems to want something like a DZ302 but with more inches. When we take the Camaro apart the T5 will go to TKOPerformance, as prearranged--no banging shifts, no slicks, but maybe some open road racing and SOLO II.

 

It depends ALOT how hard you beat it. But I only had an old '83 Non WC T-5 with a loose input shaft when I started! I still have it in the box the G Force trans came in as a "emergency" backup! Since I don't beat mine really, I hope I'll won't need it anytime soon.

Agreed. In my case, I bought mine almost 3 years ago and I didn't know anything about the Hanlon Motorsport kits or TKO's...I'm not even sure they were selling the kits then. And since I've heard no complaints from thier product either, I assume they're a good deal too. I'd think they'd be just fine for road racing.

Most engines that more easily pull outrageous amounts of torque seem to be the bigger CI motors from what I've seen - 383's, 400 and above. And even those don't normally use near that on the street. Now add 1/4 mile drag strip a posi and sticky tires - different atmosphere all together. As said many times, it all depends on what you want to do with the car.

 

track duty with slicks i think is pretty hard work for it

i beat it up pretty good...

 

The built T5 swap should be cheaper than a T56 swap. Not only will the trans be cheaper and fresh, you can reuse OEM parts for the swap. The T5 swap parts are much cheaper at a local yard, or from a parts car. But I guess it really depends on what you want and stuff , if you can justify the cost for a tubular torque arm and stuff then it might not seem like such a waste. I would only do the T56 swap if I wanted a 6 speed.

 

Track duty with slicks is a hard life for everything in the drivetrain. The T56 is a great trans, and very tough in stock form. It isn't indestructable. A common complaint is that the synchros tend to wear rather quickly. It uses multi-cone synchros and is silky smooth to shift, but that smoothness comes at the price of reduced service life of the synchro parts.

Another major problem is that parts for the T56 are very expensive. If you wind up with a T56 that needs an overhaul the bearing kit is about $230 and the rebuild kit is about $245. Throw in a couple of gears that need to be replaced because the synchro teeth are damaged and the cost to rehab a T56 can skyrocket. Especially if you can't handle the rebuild yourself, and I will warn you that a T56 is a very compicated trans to rebuild. There is actaully a special tool to set the endplay on the countershaft extension that you can't even buy. It has to be made by a machine shop from blueprints given in Tremec's manual.

That being said the T56 is an inherently better design than the T5. The case is a lot more beefy in critical areas, the gears are made from better material & have a better helix angle, and the use of needle bearings under all the speed gears basically eliminates mainshaft wear and mainshaft problems. Additionally, G-Force is now selling gearsets and mainshafts for the T56 that will basically make it bulletproof even with obscene power levels. Their gears are also made in two pieces, so if you ruin the engagement teeth for the synchro you can get just that part of the gear, saving considerable money over buying a brand new gear. A version of the T56 with external cooling, dog faced synchros, and striaght cut, high strength gears are still being used in the Viper and Corvette LeMans cars. These things push 750HP and plenty of torque at high RPM, which is a testament to the strength of the T56 design.

The 3rd gen swap is nearly a bolt in if you use the LT1 T56. There are a lot of nuances to the swap though, and I've yet to find all the inof on one site. There's a lot of good info right here on TGO, but it'll take you some time to sort through it all. That being said, I love my T56, and run 3.73s out back. Even 4.10s wouldn't be bad, and I'm starting to think that when I swap the rear for a 9" I may change the ratio to a 4.10. I'm still not turning 2,000 RPM at 80MPH. The gas milage is great.

If you're looking to build a fun street car with a minimum of hassles the T5 is still a very viable and good way to go. Like anything else it all depends on what you want to do.

 

check out the companies at the bottom of this article. I have experience with G-force, Hanlon,and D&D, they are all awsome.



T5 article

 

If you want to tackle the rebuild yourself Hanlon is where I buy all my T5 parts. D&D is where all my T56 parts comes from. Both are excellent companies. Be sure to get a factory service manual. They are cheap and well worth it.

 

well how much money are we talking here
I looked at 5speedtransmissions.com and they had the TKO500 there for 1800 bucks for the tranny alone!!! thats rediculous. Then the the G-force, I think we are looking at like 1200 bucks or so just for the kit, then i have to put it in...then i couldn't find a price on ddperformance for anything....if we are talking 1500 or more for a 5 speed tranny, I mines as well go with the T56, becuz i'm not going to be putting out over 500lbs of torque and over 500HP....i need just a tranny to hold a corvette tpi that will eventually have ported heads and a supercharger on it..so it'll be 450 HP at the crank, maybe a bit more if I'm lucky...from what i'm seeing, i'm not sure a build up T5 is the way to go, some of those prices are insane!!! I think a stock T56 would suite my needs more....what do you guys think??

 

Keep in mind the cost of the rest of the parts for the T56 swap. Most people I know of that did it dropped almost $500 for the Spohn conversion pieces. Now maybe if there is a cheaper way to do the swap that I dont know of (like reusing OEM parts from a 4th gen or something) then this is a moot point. But the parts for the T5 swap can be found for much cheaper at a yard. I parted a T5 car out and ended up getting everything I needed for a T5 swap for free (minus the trans itself). Also keep in mind the cheaper T56's are usually used, while these rebuilt T5's would be fresh. I think it really depends on what you want / need. I think you'll spend at least $1000 when everything is said and done, even more if you go the T56 route.

 

i don't understand how i would spend only 1000 dollars when all said and done with on a performance T5 swap when the rebuild kit from say g-force is over 1000 bucks itself??? i think i'm missing something here....don't get me wrong, i would love to go the T5 direction, because like you guys said, the parts are all completely bolt on, and can be had from junkyards...but i've been looking at some of these places, and the T5 is a rediculous price, and i dont' see how some of you guys did it for 1000 bucks...

 

I didn't do it for 1K.....more like 2K. But they provided the whole tranny with a Pro-5.0 shifter. I got it because I knew I'd throw a 400 in it one day. That day came. I don't regret it. I'd do the same thing if I were seriously thinking about something like.......hmmm installing a blower, a BBC, racing it - something like that....

I think you've had good responses here. If you're not willing to spend 1K on a good trans to back up that 2K plus blower, heads, cam, exhaust etc....

Oh, and you'll probably need to upgrade the rear end too.

Do you see where I'm going here?

Sorry if this sounds harsh, because I don't mean it to be - but decide what you really want because going fast ain't cheap (believe me) , and many of the aftermarket stuff required is Thirdgen specific. And costly (i.e. rear ends, T-5 tranny's etc...

 

Here's the truth about tranny upgrades and swaps. Anything that significantly improved the strength of the trans or rear is going to be expensive. I rebuild the T5 for the 400-450 lbs/ft of torque for $880 plus shipping. A Pro 5.0 shifter is around $200, that's over $1,000 just as you said.

A T56 swap is going to be 2-3 times that much depending on the options you choose. If you buy all the stuff from a 4th gen salavage company you will pay around $2,000 for the assembly. A Pro 5.0 for the T56 is $200, the custom x-member you need is like $150, throw in $100 for miscelaneous wiring, fasteners, fluids, ect., and the cost is starting to skyrocket. You still wind up with a used trans too. Granted it's a great unit to start with, but if it was abused by the previous owner, which is a definite possibility since it's coming from a totaled performance car, you could easily wind up with hundreds in the trans to rebuild or repair it.

Same goes for the rear end. I've got about $1,100 in parts in the 7.625" 10-bolt in my car right now, and I did all the work myself. I actually had the rear fail, which led to the buildup. I wouldn't have saved anything if it didn't fail, but it demonstrates how strengthening the driveline can get expensive in a hurry. However, it was still cheaper than a bolt in 9" or 12-bolt. It's not quite as strong, but I'm confident that for the power I make now, and considering that I don't run slicks on the car, it is strong enough for what I'm doing and has a safety margin for more power down the road.

If you want bolt in simplicity and low (relatively) cost you are going to be better of beefing up the stock components that doing a swap. The 3rd gen specific parts are a hinderance. These cars aren't like the old musclecars, where you could go to a local junkyard and buy a bolt in 12-bolt from one car, and a Super T-10 or Muncie from another and pick up the right driveshaft and it would all just bolt right in and you'd have instant beef to handle everything that the 402 you bought from that wrecked pickup could offer, and an instant 12-second Camaro or Nova. Sadly, those days are gone.

 

Well said TKO.....that's what I was trying to get at. In my mind it's not a matter of T-5 or T-56.

If you want to keep the cost down, then do a mild engine buildup - something that doesn't greatly exceed the limits of the rest of the factory driveline.

If you build a high HP/TQ engine, it won't stop there. You'll eventually need to do further upgrades to support the new found power. Oh yeah, you MIGHT get away with running a stock trans and rear etc. for awhile, but it will eventually break. Just a matter of where and when.

In my case, with my luck, that'll be around 1AM in the morning on an abandoned country road in the middle of nowhere.

Heck, look at my sig - I have an open 3.73:1 rear in it now (original), and I know I'll need to upgrade. Only reason it's not broke yet is because I can't get any real traction. While spinning tires impresses the kids, it's not too good to spin tires while your competition leaves you in thier dust. If I put sticky tires on it or did a 2500 RPM clutch drop right now though, the rear would most likely snap. - or the drive shaft - or I could twist the car without SFC's to reinforce it - etc....wherever the weakest link is.

 

well my plan is to get the drivetrain to hold the power after i throw the blower on this summer.....i already ordered an Eaton posi unit, richmond 3:73 gears, bearings and everthing needed for installing, and i'm getting performance u joints...so i think my rear end will be able to hold the power that i'm going to be throwing at it..i'm not sure how much a stock driveshaft can handle, but most people say thats usually the last thing that would go....after that is all said, the only thing left in my drivetrain is the trans...so that is what started this thread...i've drove 2 summers now on the 700r4, and i'm getting sick of it...it doesn't kick down when i want power...its terrible for roll ons....and i know it'll go down the road after i get a blower, becuase all it has is a transgo shift kit...so its basically stock....but i was just wondering, when you guys said I can do a T5 swap for 1000 bucks, when the kits alone are over 1000 bucks...i just dont' know exactly what do to....the TKO is really expenisvie, and the G-force is lookin to be the cheapest route yet....is it possible to do a G-force T5 swap for 1500 if i rebuild and put the gforce parts in the trans???

 

Going with the route TKOPerformance just listed is the cheapest fresh built manual setup I've found. I'm gonna be getting this setup soon for my track drifting car, and if it works out like I think it will, I plan to get the same setup for my street car later on down the road. I got the T5 swap parts for cheap/free by parting out a T5 car. When all is said and done, it'll be around $1000 to $1200.

 

Doing the work yourself you can get the G-Force parts for under $1,500. If you street drive the car stay away from the dog-faced synchros. They aren't very streetable.

When spending that much you need to be really certain that you are up to the task of rebuilding the trans. I'm not saying that you aren't, but just think about it this way: If you save a couple hundred by doing it yourself and something goes wrong and you ruin $1,500 worth of parts, was it really worth it? Personally, if I wasn't confident doing the rebuild I'd pay to have it done, because the insurance is worth having the guarantee that it won't break because something wasn't done correctly during the rebuild. G-Force's labor to install their kit isn't that exensive IMO, but it will push you past the $1,500 budget. Everything is spelled out clearly on their website http://www.gforcetransmissions.com

 

Its not that hard of a piece to make if you have access to a lathe Just takes a while (a buddy and I are currently making one for his brother in our high school metals class).

 

No it isn't hard for someone with a metal lathe, but that's like saying that it isn't hard to machine an engine block if you've got a boring machine, milling machine, and a hot tank. In a lot of ways I envy you guys who have access to this type of stuff at school. I couldn't take cool classes like that where I went to school. It's a shame too, it would have really helped my GPA!

 

Eh, that program is going to be dropped from my school within the next year or two, I'm pretty sure, but since today was my last day of school there...it doesn't matter to me! I guess there used to be an auto class there too a long time ago, but I missed out on that one Though that's not all bad...it just makes me look smarter since the other kids don't know anything about cars

Kinda back to the topic...is it worth it to get the gears cryo-treated at all? I'm looking into swapping in either a T-5 or a T-56 to my car come summer time (by then I'll have the engine sorted out, and possibly a hybrid rearend). T-5 = 100lbs lighter and cheaper, but T-56 = stronger and close-ratio gearing as well as better highway RPMs. I have a 2.73/700R4 combo and I turn 2000RPM at 80. My buddy has a '99 SS with 3.42/T-56 combo and turns 1800RPM at 80! I have 3.42 gears and posi carrier in my garage for my car in the spring, and a T-56 would be nice to keep my mileage similar. With that said though, even going to a T-5 with the 3.42 gears would only put me at 2250ish at 80 anyways..

I remember my buddy saying that he made his old T-5 a bit stronger by swapping in titanium syncros and cobalt shift forks. Are these parts worthwhile at all? Since the time he told me that, I've quickly surpassed his knowledge and sometimes wonder about things I remember him telling me (he's long since sold that car, as he's the one with the SS now)..

 

I think cryo treating a set of T5 gears would be a waste of money. Cryo treated stock gears are probably not much stronger than super alloy gears, and if the super alloys aren't strong enough get the G-Force kit. Cryo treating is mostly reserved for race car parts, and a lot of import guys are starting to use it because the aftermarket gearsets are either very expensive or unavailable. I knew a guy that had the gears in his WRX's trans cryo treated because aftermarket gears were like $4,500. That's a lot of money in anyone's book, and the cryo treating came in at a fraction of that. The downside is that the trans was apart for weeks while he waited to get the gears back. It needed all the help it could get though, so the downtime was worth it. He had a TXS stage IV kit on the car. It needed a twin plate clutch just to keep the disc from slipping. At the track he used to smoke all 4 tires off the line and run low 12s. Not bad for a 2.0 4-cylinder,

My car with the T56 and 3.73s still isn't quite turning 2,000 RPM at 80 in 6th gear. It's a good trans to get the best of both worlds with.

Titanium synchros? Cobalt shift forks? I don't think so. You would never want a titanium synchro. The synchro should always be a softer material than the gears. The idea is that the synchro would fail rather than the gear, because the syncho is cheap and the gear expensive. I'm not familiar with the physical properties of Cobalt, but I've never heard of it beign used in a structural or high stress application, and that's probably a hint. I've heard of bronze shift forks for T5s though. The way to improve synchro strength is to change their design. That's why dog-faced synchros are so popular in racing applications. If you use a good shifter shift fork life should never be an issue either. You need to prevent overshifting by using a shifter that has bolts to limit travel. Overshifting is what ruins T5 forks.

 

which I think is exactly what happened to mine. I was shifting hard into 4th, think I pulled a little too far and it overshifted. won't find out till Spring Break what the damage is though.

by the way I'm using a B&M Ripper shifter

 

I have to admit that I'm a fan of the Pro 5.0 shifters, and the reason is simple. They are tough as nails. The shifter body is steel, not aluminum, so there is no chance of breakage or deflection. There are quite a few shifters out there, and most are cheaper than the Pro 5.0, but that isn't even going to get me to look at one. I've used them for years, never had a problem, and see no reason to mess with a good thing.

 

Okay, so what have we decided for options for rebuilding a T-5? I'm pretty confident I could do the work myself given time, which I'll have plenty of.

I'm trying to decide between rebuilding my 700R4, swapping in a T-5, or swapping in a T-56. My only problems with the T-56 are the extremely heavy weight (I wouldn't save any weight over the 700R4) and teh price. 700R4 means I don't have to do all of the retrofit work to get a manual in my car. The cost of rebuilding a 700R4 isn't bad, but I'd need a new torque converter for my motor when I'm finished. T-5 has decent gear ratios and would probably be just about perfect for 3.23/3.42 gears and is 100lbs lighter!

 

First, the T56 isn't nearly as heavy as you think it is. It certainly isn't even close to a 700R4 in weight. I can easily toss my T56 up on the bench. Doing that with a 700R4 was a genuine feat of strength. The last time I installed my T56 I just bench pressed it into place. Granted I'm fairly strong, but I don't think I could have done that with a 700R4! The T56 is probably about 110-115 lbs dry. A T5 is around 65-70. A 700R4 is probably 175 or more (then there's the converter). The extra weight of the T56 over the T5 is the added beef that makes it so much stronger.

If you want a manual then you want a manual and I wouldn't sweat over the weight or cost differences between and auto and a stick. If you're happy with the 700R4 then just rebuild it and swap converters.

To me the choice is T5 or T56. The T5 is more cost effective, and running 3.42 or 3.73 gears won't be a problem. The T56 is stronger and running 4.10 gears or even higher won't be a problem. The T5 is a bolt in swap using parts you can find fairly easily at a junkyard. The T56 requires specialized parts to some extent (especially if you are running injection), and plenty of research to make sure the swap is done right.

I won't lie, it's great to be going 80 at over 2,500 RPM then realize that you've got one more gear and cut the RPM down to less than 2,000, all the while having great acceleration in 1st-4th gears and running a deep rear gear. The T56 is a great trans, but the cost to play can't be ignored.