LilJayV10

iTrader: (5)

I talked to Terry today, very nice man, for almost 30 minutes.

The more we talked the more confused he was for this tranny to be working the way it is. He said with 250 psi of pressure the thing shouldn't shift unless it's at WOT. I had mentioned the way it shifted and he was amazed and said it shouldn't be shifting at part throttle at all. Untill that point he said to put the stock PR valve in it along with the stock int/rev and boost valve. Now he thinks I should take the valve body off and recheck everything. He said the PR valve has to be moving some because if it wasn't it would be at 700psi. He said a stuck line bias valve could do it also. Like everyone else that knows about this tranny, he was confused also and said he wish's he could see it in person to try and figure out what's wrong with it. So tomorrow I guess I am going to take the valve body back apart.

Besides a stuck line bias valve, what else in the VB that could make it do this?

thanks

Jason

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Wrong seperator plate or gasket for the valve body allowing fluid to bypass.

LilJayV10

iTrader: (5)

I took the valvebody apart last night, the vent holes are not drilled, and a wrong hole was drilled in the seperator plate. I don' t know how it happened, but I'm not very happy about it. The new seperator plate will be here in the morning, and I need to get the right size bits for the vent holes.

I checked, the line bias valve was moving freely.

chris718

i opened a trans today with the upper land and lower land modified as per the instructions and the both illustrations and guess what?it works fine.the valve isnt the problem then.a crossleak into the tv upshift circuit or reverse circuit which boosts line pressure is more of a probable cause.if your not happy about the vent holes in the valve body,pay more attention to the instructions next time.youve just created a new problem no one has ever heard of.this is common if you dont follow directions.removed the tv circuit as per larrys instructions means boost circuit is being charged from something other than the mtv oil that exits the plunger.this is perhaps why the shifts were not late..

Dean Mason

NO!! he has NOT modified this valve incorrectly!
>> I MODIFIED THAT VALVE (thru it's design) <<
do not alter it!


that is not an OE PR valve. I am the engineer who designed it and it has been used in tens of thousands of 700-R4's, 200-4R's, and THM-125/125C transmissions.
It's design corrects ..
PR buzz, slide rattle, delayed reverse engagement (2004R), reduces premature pump rotor failure (125), reduces vane ring collapse on 2004R/700R4, improves converter charge and cooler flow WITHOUT creating some of the side effects caused by grinding off the TC land, and fixes falling out of 4th while coasting.


The beveled land you identify is an additional land added
to the valve for axial support in the bore, while the flats are there to allow decrease exhaust a drain pathway to the sump.

(I'll continue in another msg)

Dean Mason

Don..
If it is something you have never seen, and you know
nothing about it, then your statement
"i assure you it is wrong"
must logically be in error, since you argue from ignorance.
It would seem the most you could say is..
"i assure you! I know nothing about this!"

Dean Mason

the name is Dean Mason.

It strikes me as quite odd that you would make an slanderous insinuation against a man you neither know
or know anything about.

If you must know, I started my own company TransLab.
I also manufacture valve body products. If you are interested you can do a google search for "translab performance transmission" or check any of the DSM sites or clubs and my name and product is all over the place.

But your suggestion about getting clarification from Larry
is a wonderful idea! We are personal friends. I've known Larry for quite a few years now, and hold him in hi regard. He is a gentleman's gentleman, and will certainly speak the truth. So please do ask him about me.

Dean Mason

i understand that you "firmly believe" that, but it should be based on something factual. IF the valve would prove to be the "cause", it certainly is not related to it's design parameters, but a practical defect, like the balance hole being plugged by some foreign material, or possibly a manufacture defect like drill bit broken off in the whole from the CNC machine, etc.

Yes, you are correct, the transgo kit does not include my
valve. Neither does it include the clutches, band, filter, or upgraded input drum lube seal included in Dana's kits.
Your point is a "non-sequiter". The transgo product can be installed alone, or used during rebuild, as can my PR valve.

and Yes, transgo shows you to grind off the converter land. The drawback with this is that if the pump is not in A1 condition, giving "converter/lube" circuit mainline priority can cause a low pressure / delayed reverse engagement,
especially prevalent in the 2004R. If the converter land is not there and pump volume output is minimal, the land cannot be closed to insure a safe "minimum psi" threshhold to prevent what i mentioned. but one must realize that transgo's objective was not the same as mine. We worked in different areas, for different reasons, and for them to include a PR valve in the shift kit would drive up manufacture cost and reduce profits against a good market resale strategy. Oh, make no mistake, if transgo wanted to go hog wild there are MANY things that could have been included. but one establishes priorities when manufacturing kits, and transgo has had some disasterous overbuild/overprice problems in the past.

so my friend, i think you speak without knowledge, and open a can of worms you are not qualified to deal with.

sorry to have to correct you publicly, but you must keep in mind i have the right to defend the integrity of what I make also. and believe me, that valve had PLENTY of research time and proof testing. its a winner and has been since
1984.
Dana is not fool, and would not waste good money including a pointless product in his kits if he didn't feel it had good merit, so you see you also insult HIS integrity
and judgment.
Not wise for someone arguing from ignorance.

LilJayV10

iTrader: (5)

I got a new seperator plate today and drilled the correct holes in it and drilled the two holes in the valvebody. I am going to have to find the plug kit thats used to block off the holes in the seperator plate.

I feel really bad for all the time that has been put into this problem, from Dana, Larry at Transgo, Don, Chris, Terry at P.I. and now Dean Mason. The holes were not correctly drilled, I thought they had been. I am not going to point fingers, the holes were just not drilled. I feel so bad taking up everyones time, especially Larry's chasing a problem that he says never happens over something simple. Hopefully this will fix the problem and I hope that I won't have any others. Apparently this thread has become somewhat heated and some people have been offended. I know it's not my fault but still feel bad that it happened in my thread.

All this time and it was something stupid, like the rings in my 406. I know **** happens, I just get tired of it. Maybe I will read the instructions next time, that never occured to me before it was pointed out.

If I can find a plug kit tomorrow I will have the tranny back in the car this weekend.

I do have a question, a few times, and when I saw a few I mean maybe 3-4, that at WOT, the car either felt like it slipped or just wouldn't shift on the 2-3 shift, it hasn't happened to me but my friend who owns the car. It also when it's cold outside in the morning, it will slip one time from the 1-2 shift. Should the trans be taken back apart and the clutches looked at? I do not want to take this thing back out again.
I am going to put the PR vavle and big boost valve back in it and set it up per Dana's instructions. Then if I have any other problems, lord I hope not, I can say everything is right.

Again I appreciate everyones time and knowledge trying to figure out a problem that could have been avoided.

Pro Built Automatics

There are 3 holes in the valve body that need to be drilled. If you need the aluminum plugs, I can send you them, or you can use an aluminum welding rod (about $.50). Let me know if I can help?

Dean Mason

Don't worry about taking everyone's time. They could pass over the message and move on to other things. If anyone invested time in the problem it was by personal choice. So no sweat man.
Let's just hope your back on track now.

But i would suggest taking the transgo instruction sheet and
marking the 2 holes not drilled, then fax it to larry so he can connect your problem to the cause. He will be able to look in transgo's modified oil circuit diagram that accompanies the kit
changes, and then be able to make the logical connection. If anyone else encounters the same thing he'll be able to go right
to it.
The best thankyou you can give a hotline technician is accurate feedback (that is, other than a bottle of something cold and soothing, hehe).

Dean

Dean Mason

[QUOTE]Originally posted by LilJayV10
[B] All this time and it was something stupid, like the rings in my 406. I know **** happens, I just get tired of it. Maybe I will read the instructions next time, that never occured to me before it was pointed out.

i got news for ya..
it happens in transmission shops too. and they are professionals.
we ALL make boo-boo's from time to time, and some can be quite expensive. So no worries.

Just write it down ["another one for the books"] and move on.

Dean Mason

An accurate diagnosis requires accurate details.
Your information needs to be qualified.
You haven't specified any relevant details so I have no clue
about this trans.

> "when i say a few, i mean three to four"

out of how many? is this 3-4 times in a row that you felt?
or was this 3 or 4 out of 20 times?

Is this trans bone stock? Or does it have a "shift kit" or any other
calibration changes? has it been worked on? rebuilt? if not, how many miles on the trans? How much horsepower is being put into
this trans? is it really slipping? or just a little bit longer than when it's warm? that is.. is it a 1 sec slip? or are we talking 3-4 seconds during the shift? How much of a contrast between this cold "slip",
and the normal up to temperature upshifts?

Dean

chris718

Dean,on the basis of you being affiliated with transgo at some point in time and having spent time testing circuitry while being in the company of skilled individuals who understand the innermost complexities of the automatic,id like to pose a fes questions to you regarding gms use of the third accumulator checkball in the 3rd gear upshift circuit.3rd clutch oil waiting at the shift valve passes thru it when governer strokes the valve.it then enters the third circuit and is sent to the direct clutch drum 2004r or 3/4 clutches 700r4 while also directed to remove the band applied at the same pressure but with a smaller apply area thus being knocked off during the upshift.the checkball 3rd acc is used to force third oil to exit thru the exhaust hole in the ball capsule as well as thru the secondary hole in the seperator plate next to the 3rd acc hole in the plate.some third acc use no secondary hole therefore a delay in 4/2 or 3/2 kickdowns is present if the secondary hole is not there.now transgo plugs the primary 3rd acc hole and says you must have what i call the secondary 3 rd acc hole.what i have found is that during a 2/3 upshift the checkball is actually used to reduce band knockoff and is positioned in its bathtub and held there by oil fed thru the secondary hole.if the ball is not there and the plate is plugged i find 2/3 upshift quality is not as firm as it is with the original set up with the primary and secondary acc holes and checkball combo in hi output applications.also it is interesting to notethat the calibrations that do not use the secondary hole but have the primary hole and checkball do not leave a witness mark in the bathtub as do the other types leading me to believe this lack of third acc oil restriction cause a flare or minute slip during application.this is evident based on data log info ive gathered with an 11 second turbo buick test car we use to understand the transmission world we work in.the mcss ho used this calibration and suffered ban failures.the plug and drill tgo methos i have found to not be worthy for hi performance usage.here at ckperformance we do not deal with passenger cars intended to get around with stock motors.this circuit was to be used in conjunction with a 3/2 control valve ,3rd acc ball capsule as well as an exhaust port over the 2/3 shift valve in the valve body to control exhausting rates but also greatly affect upshift performance.it is also possible to get a 4/3 /2 kickdown at 40 mph even though the third valve is closed because of the amount of time it takes for the 3rd clutch to release.what did you find on this mystifying circuit.there is more to it than meets the eye.

LilJayV10

iTrader: (5)

Dean,

I appreciate your feed back as well as the quality of it. I admit the information that I gave you concerning the trans slipping a few times was vauge at best. I will have to ask the guy that owns the car exactly what happened, and see if the trans does it after it's back together.

The transmission has Dana's rebuild kit in it that a friend that owns a local transmission shop put it together for me and I watched and helped some. I could have never gotten it back together on my own. The engine is a mild LT1 350 in a 93 Camaro, hoping for around 400 RWHP, thats why I went with Dana's kit. Dana has helped me out more times than I can remember concerning transmissions. He has patience like no one else I have ever spoken to. Saying his customer service is outstanding is an understatment. That why I continue to refer as many people to Dana as I can, three of my friends have bought convertors from him, and one of those bought that rebuild kit that I spoke of previously.

I put the valvebody back together this evening. I will plug the seperator plate in the morning and finish assembling the trans and hopefully will have it back in the car by tomrrow evening.

chris718

ljay,my theory of a crossleak into the modulated tv oil circuit has proven to be factual.this circuit supplies boost oil to the tv boost valve to raise line pressure based on throttle angle ,a hydraulic engine load signal dean,i hope to hear a reply from my qs.

chris718

ljay,my theory of a crossleak into the modulated tv oil circuit has proven to be factual.this circuit supplies boost oil to the tv boost valve to raise line pressure based on throttle angle ,a hydraulic engine load signal dean,i hope to hear a reply from my qs.

LilJayV10

iTrader: (5)

If what has happened so far isn't enough I have more news.

I put the tranny back together yesterday and started it last night. 80PSI!!!! The pressure was steady, didn't jump around or anything. I thought for sure I had fixed it. I pulled the TV cable and nothing, no increase in pressure, but when I revved the engine the pressure would increase.

So I put it in reverse and nothing, put it in drive, same thing, nothing. If i revved it up to about 1800 the tires would move but fearing burning something up I did it only twice. I checked the fluid level and it was fine. I shut the car off and called dana. He didn't really have any ideas at the time.

I went back down and started the car again and put it in gear and the tires moved like they were supposed to, but still no increase when I pulled the TV cable. I was looking over the instructions and realized that I didn't put the rod that goes on the gear selector to the plunger in the valve body. I even had the rod laying on the table with the tranny parts but it's been so long since I had worked on it I forgot were it went.

I got up this morning with high hopes of this fixing my problem. I was wrong. I dropped the valve body and put the rod back in and bolted everything back up. I started it 250PSI!!!!

If I put in in neutrul it goes up to 300 and jumps from 200-300, you can feel the guage jump when the pressure spikes. If i hold it at 2000 rpms in gear it will jump around.

At this point I don't even know what to say. I'm happy I left the rod out though because I can say the tranny will run at 80 psi.

LilJayV10

iTrader: (5)

ttt

LilJayV10

iTrader: (5)

ttt again,

anyone have any ideas on this one?

F-Bobby

dude at this point why dont you just buy a new transmission? it seems kinda silly that you are gonna go through all this again. btw is that Rod supposd to be trimmed down or cut or somethign when you put this kit in? is it the right rod?

LilJayV10

iTrader: (5)

yeah there's over 500 bucks of quality tranny parts in it, i'm just gonna tell my friend he needs to drop 1500 for a new built tranny.

F-Bobby

yeah but 500$ worth of high quality trans parts does nothing if you cant drive the car.... it was just a suggestion if all else fails.

LilJayV10

iTrader: (5)

Thank you for your suggestion.

SSC

It's hard to say what to do next. I'd send the VB to someone like Dana and see if anything is screwy or just get a builder transmission and start fresh. It may cost more this route but dang I'd say all the crap you have been through a few extra bucks to get rid of a headach is money well spent.

LilJayV10

iTrader: (5)

you are right and I have been thinking about it. I called dana tonight and I'm going to have him build me a valve body and front pump and ship it to me. I've messed with the damn thing long enough.

SSC

Thats cool, I have had a couple of very aggrivating problems building transmissions thats why I stoped working on them except my own of course. This is the kind of stuff that ruins friendships, I lost a good friend over an AOD from hell, not my fault the case was warped, oh well.

Just keep us posted on what happens whne you get the new VB and pump. If those dont cure it a 10lb sledge hammer will.
Of course after you take the new pump and VB out.

8Mike9

So whatever happen to this beast?

I stumbled across this thread a few weeks ago and spent an hour reading through it.

I now have a "gotta know" mind

LilJayV10

iTrader: (5)

Dana built me a new front pump and valvebody and it should be here anyday so the car is sitting at the moment. Hopefully soon it will be moving again.

Jason

LilJayV10

iTrader: (5)

Just to let everyone know it was the front pump. dana sent me both the front pump and the valve body. I put the valvebody in first and it didn't take care of the problem. I put the front pump in last weekend and the car shifts perfect. I still have no idea what was wrong with it unless it has a cross leak somewhere. I appreciate everyone's time on this problem and I know it was suggested a long time ago that I put a new front pump in it.

Thanks again.

Jason