Stevo

iTrader: (45)

Bringing the car home from the exhaust shop last night, first real actual drive with the new motor/tranny/suspension. Clutch started feeling wierd, wouldn't get into some gears, then as i got closer and closer to my house i couldn't get it in gear at all i had it in 2nd, should have kept it in there to get home but i didn't and tried to shift into another gear, pedal started feeling hard as a rock then i pushed too hard and pop clutch was gone. Died 2 blocks from my house, we were able to push/pull the car home. The rod is still on the clutch pedal, fluid is low and the slave cylinder was wet around where the line went in. So good guess is that the slave cylinder blew out right?

My question is why did this happen in the first place?

I really hope i didn't screw up the clutch master cylinder because its an adjustable piece from mcleod they cost over $300 new and i love the adjustability.

Why would the force generate so much at the fork. Could the fork be binding in the throwout bearing somehow?

I am running LT1 hydraulics with a Tremec TKO.

The car was running great most the trip home(other then the completely dead battery that i don't know how kept my fuel pump and msd box going enough to get the car home then the clutch started acting funny.

On a side note, getting the car sideways from a 45mph roll on dry pavement was pretty fun

New slave cylinder ordered today, so i should have it tomorrow morning and ill post back.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

do you have an adjustable fork pivot ball? did it come loose and back out?

If the hydraulics ran out of fluid, it would just not work, not bind up. the pedal would flop around and such. did the master crap out?

did you go to longtubes? is the slave/braided hose, too close and boiling the fluid? maybe that is?

Stevo

iTrader: (45)

Pivot ball that goes to the clutch pedal ya, and no it was stationary and locked in.

Ya if the fluid ran out i would have just got a squishy pedal.

I am running coated longtubes and they are very close to the slave cylinder. The braided hose is tucked far enough that i don't think its a problem. I actually thought maybe the fluid did boil but wouldn't it change color to a more black appearance? Either way, either the master or the slave is screwed up and im just taking an educated guess thats its the slave cause it looked kinda wet by there. It was hard to tell i'm going to pull it out in a bit.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

im not sure what the fluid would do when boiled, i assume it would expand? not sure if it would burn after just one "boiling". If you heard a pop, thats usually the slave, i assume you are using the stock composite slave? Hmmm

Stevo

iTrader: (45)

Stock slave as far as i know, ill let you know what i find out whenever i jack up the car and get under there.

Stevo

iTrader: (45)

Pulled out the slave, and the rubber boot cover poped off and i got a face full of brake fluid. lol. I cant see anything visable wrong with it, i mean the piston spring, washers all came apart but anyway i guess ill pop the new one in tomorrow and see how it does.

84 Z-28 350

you need to figure out why the slave cylender over-extended itself look at the pivot ball stud that the fork rests on, it might have un-scrwed

Stevo

iTrader: (45)

Well $80 for a slave cylinder i probably didnt need. Too bad the old one fell apart when i got it out because i probably just could have reused that one. Looks like a need a new master cylinder. Same deal, press in the pedal no pressure at all and the slave wont move. Pre-bled the slave and still nothing. I just pulled out the master cylinder not sure how i could tell if its defective. Other then i can press it in and out with my hand with ease. Advanced auto wants $98 for a new one and its special order. GREAT.
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This is the piece i just ruined. http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

ooooooo thats pudry!!! i wants one, but if they bust, im not sure. Do you have the stock bellhousing with the inspection cover? have you played with the fork or looking inside so soo if something is jammed up in there causing the clutch/fork to bind? If the master is defective maybe send it back for a refund?

Stevo

iTrader: (45)

Nah i got it used with my old T56 that i bought off someone. Im going to call mcleod and see if they can rebuild it. In the meantime i guess i will install a new master tomorrow and see how it goes. I have a rubber boot over the fork and it wont really allow me to see in(stock bellhousing), i thought about taking that boot off. I can feel the fork, feels like i did when i put it on. Its loose but its on the ballstud and i can press it against the throwout bearing feels normal.

I really don't know how you guys are able to use the stock masters, i needed the adjustability so bad when using my old T56 and now with this new tremec. Clutch disengages at all different points on the pedal between the 2. Ive swapped clutches 3-4 times through the last transmission and every time i needed to adjust the pedal. Do you use any shims on the slave bolts to adjust or what?

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

im using the lt1 setup, with an aluminum slave . The pedal is fine, maybe just a hair high, but not enough to bug me or cause an issue, i think its almost perfect.

Stevo

iTrader: (45)

So here is where im at. Ordered a new master yesterday got here today and just installed it. I wasnt having any luck with a gravity bleed so i rented a vacuum pump. Used it, had my dad press the pedal as i watched it bleed the system. Bubbles stopped and then i told him stop, i removed the vac, then had him press it a few times, then pop heard the factory zip tie(that holds the slave rod) broke, then i said press a couple more times he did then he said it feels hard like a brake pedal i said stop! I got in and its hard as a rock, similar to what happened a couple nights ago. The rain just picked up so i haven't had a chance to get under the car and check out the fork. Something is binding and not allowing the fork push the throwout bearing down on the pressure plate.

Stevo

iTrader: (45)

Got under the car, the slave rod had gone past the fork, the pivot ball wasn't on the fork. So i put it on the fork and the clutch moved some but just didnt feel right. Started the car, cant get it into any gear, its just not moving the fork enough, it feels hard like it did the night i brought it home then poped when i pressed too hard.

Looks like i'm dropping the trans again.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

that sucks, could the throwout be seized?

Stevo

iTrader: (45)

I have no idea, i can't even see into the bellhousing...

Clutch setup and TO bearing are all new.

I had been wrenchin for MONTHS to get this car ready for a big car show in Ocean City, MD and now i doubt it will make it. That was my deadline to have it ready before this weekend and we are leaving wednesday, looks like i'm going in my gf's 2000 t/a now...

i quit.

krisb410

iTrader: (9)

There is still time to try and save it. You DON'T have to leave on Weds. Get ur car fixed and head down Thurs or Fri.

Stevo

iTrader: (45)

If i wanted to trailer it down yes i did. Ill be leaving shortly anyhow.

I just got under the car and removed the rubber fork cover in the bellhousing and looked up in. Im at a loss other then to blame the pressure plate, the fork is resting on its pivot ball and the throwout bearing is free to move on the input shaft.

I do not know what kind of pressure plate/clutch i put in. I think it was clutchmasters? I bought the setup with the trans.

Im running a lightweight fidanza flywheel and i had to turn the clutch around so that the springs faced towards the pressure plate for clearance reasons it wouldnt clear the flywheel bolts on the flywheel. Is that a problem? In other words engine side in on the clutch was actually the pressure plate side? Everything seemed to clear and i torqued the pressure plate to like 20-30 ft lbs.

The part that has me confused is the car was working fine up until this. I had maybe 8 miles with the way it had been and it was fine. Pedal is just hard it moves in but maybe only half of the total pedal travel, and it does move the fork but not enough it seems.

Anyone else have any ideas? Do the tremecs take any T5 clutch setup?

Id hate to remove the trans to find out everything looks ok in there...

Stevo

iTrader: (45)

anybody?

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

the clutch disc is supposed to be the other way. Im not sure what would happen if you have it on backwards? but if it was ok im sure it would be stated as such. I wonder, with the plate backwards will the springs be unable to move to absorb the shock of engagement? It sucks you will probably miss the show, but it looks like you need to investigate the clutch disc orentation issue, that may be the problem, its the only thing thats off with the setup.

Stevo

iTrader: (45)

Which means ill now have to get a different flywheel. What kind of flywheel will work with this tranny? I have a 350 block 2 pc rms. What do you run?

I already missed the show, was pretty depressing without my car but oh well. I was gonna pull the tranny out today but it was rainy, so ill probably pull it out after work sometime this week.

I have searched and searched but i can't find any real reason why the clutch needs to be mounted the way they suggest. What you said makes sense though. But like i said though the flywheel im currently using would not allow me to face the clutch inward.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

im using a billet steel 22lb flywheel setup for stock style clutches. I though the aluminum ones allowed that too? I suppose you could use a solid disc style clutch, but i think the engagement would be a little harsh.

I bought my flywheel from AMS racing? it was only like 125 bux and so far its been great.

Even with all of that said, even with the disc in backwards, i still don't see why the clutch is sticking together and wont disengage?

wintersnyght

i'm having similar issues with just a stock t5 setup. i hear this damn popping noise when i press the peddle, it's stiff, and the clutch doesn't disengage all the way to let me shift. let me know if you come up with an answer.

Stevo

iTrader: (45)

Here we go...

Pulled the tranny out this afternoon and had a look. Only thing that looks off is the clutch is definently making contact with the pressure plate, not in the right place of course. Right at the tip by the springs is shiny where it had rubbed some.





Curious, 86TA is this clutch about the same thickness where the springs are?

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

in the first pic, is that the pilot bushing i see in there? it looks destroyed. maybe im seeing things.

your disc looks a LOT thicker in the spring area than mine IIRC. It may be the angle of the pic, but it looks absurd, is it the correct disc? I know that wont work in mine.

what disc is that anyway?

the more i look at it, that clutch disc is totally wrong

Stevo

iTrader: (45)

Its not, its just dark greese that shot upward when the input shaft was spinning, its new and it looked still looked new up close.

I have no clue lol, i bought this setup with the trans, if thats the case id like to keep my flywheel and just get another clutch setup.

I have never messed with 5 speeds so i had no idea how they were suppose to look. But my old 6 speed clutch was almost flat in the middle.

Thanks for your input, i'm not putting this junk back in the car.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

[quote=Stevo;3762017]
. But my old 6 speed clutch was almost flat in the middle.

[quote]

my clutch is almost flat in the middle too, there is not much room in the center of the flywheel with the bolts and everything. Something is really off with that clutch

my opinion, i would not use that pressure plate either. those cuts in the fingers could cause them to fail prematurely.

Stevo

iTrader: (45)

Probably wont, i didn't like the look of it either.

Ill probably go with a mcleod single disc, and i guess just use a factory pressure plate. I gotta check summit out.

I knew when i got this setup it looked funny to me, wasnt really sure about it either should have trusted my instinct then.

I will probably go with this:
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku

Stevo

iTrader: (45)

AHH, why wont this car just MOVE on its own power! lol.

Got the new clutch yesterday, just got it in, everything good. Feels like a clutch again, and its moving the fork some, but not enough apparently cause i still cant get it into gear. I guess the hydraulics need to be bled more? There is no bleeder on the slave so i guess i'm gonna go rent another vacuum pump.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

there is no screw on top of the slave?

Stevo

iTrader: (45)

nope, not with my old slave or the new one.

Stevo

iTrader: (45)

bled it and feels little more firm but not much. Still cant get into gear unless you put it in while the car is off then start it.

If i put it in gear then start the car if i release the pedal it catches right off the floor, i need more slave travel i think.

Rewind back when i just started the motor for the first time, with the new trans i couldnt get it into gear then i adjusted the master cylinder and it was normal till i started having these problems. Then i blew out those hydraulics and replaced with stock pieces now i cant into gear even though i have a normal clutch pedal. Im going to make this new master into an adjustable piece with a write up on ls1tech and see how that goes. I think it just needs a little bit more to diesengage the clutch.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

clutch fork pivot ball to long/short?

Tony89GTA

iTrader: (7)

Making the master into an adjustable one is not going to help you, that`s only if you want your peddle engagement closer to the floor, right now your not getting enough slave travel. I don`t think your bleeding it proper so try this, leave everything in the car take off the slave and point it rod side down in about 45% angle now start pumping tell she really gets hard. Make sure your watching the fluid reservoir level.

Also kind of curious why you switched out the t-56 for the Tremec TKO?

Stevo

iTrader: (45)

So new master is in, your right it didnt help matters much i thought it may push more fluid to the slave but i don't think it did that. If i put the car in gear then turn it on i can drive around and get through the gears, they are very notchy but it works, getting into reverse is the same only if the car is turned off. It seems when im rolling to a stop if i mess with the shifter enough i can get it into 2nd or 1st. Really annoying and im making way too much noise for my neighborhood screwing with this car. People telling me it needs mufflers when i currently run 2 bullets with 2 mufflers...The 13:1 355 makes a lot of noise...

Should have just left the car alone when i got it...

I will try your method Tony, i think the hydraulics are bled properly, i have bled them several times with a pump and my foot.

86TA - When i had the bellhousing out i noticed the pivot ball was loose, so i tightened it up some maybe got a turn on it. I don't really know how to tell if thats a problem. I know it cannot be adjusted or taken off unless the trans is removed but even if that was the case are they adjustable?

So what could i have done wrong with the installation, could something be wrong with the pilot bearing and input shaft?

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

i dont think the stock ***** have any adjustment, though i believe all that would change is where the pedal engages/disengages the clutch in relation to the floor.

what pilot bearing are you using? is it a stock chevy one or the conversion one for the TKO? or something else?

Stevo

iTrader: (45)

Bled the slave at a 45* angle with my hand, didnt do much. Car still wont get into gear at a stop. It seems to have over a 1/2" of travel, i removed the rod and im going to replace it will a longer bolt to see what happens. About a 1/4" longer.

Thinking about what that will do it may cause premature wear on the pressure plate or TOB but i gotta figure out something. Its killing me to spend all this money to not be able to drive the car.

I'm using a stock pilot bushing, what conversion bearing are you referring to?

Tony89GTA

iTrader: (7)

Changing the rod will do nothing since its self adjusting. How far up is your clutch peddle inside the car and does it feel squishy at all when pushed in? Also when you were pumping the slave was it hard to push through the whole stoke or was it squishy for the fist part? If its hard through the whole stroke that tells me your bleading is good. 86TA is right you might want to look into the pilot bushing and find out if you have the right size cause if the shaft can't spin freely its the same as not running with a clutch, I'am not to sure what the TKO uses myself but I'am sure you can find the answer here.

Stevo

iTrader: (45)

Its hard the whole way through, the pedal is stiff the whole way through. I put about a 1/2" longer bolt in place of the slave rod and it seems to be better, i can get into gear if i'm rolling some, and once in first i can go through the gears fine but its still difficult. Cant downshift either, but as i roll to a stop i can get it into 1st everytime. But its still not right and it seems like im just covering the real problem which is that i dont think hydraulics are to blame for any of it.

This just doesn't make sense to me...

I'm going to some research now on this "conversion pilot bearing"

So help me god if i have to drop that trans again i just may go crazy...

86Z

iTrader: (4)

dude, first things first...

you need to know how much slave travel your getting, see how much the fork moves when someone presses the pedal, a MIC works great, should be over .570 if not something is up with the hydraulics, when you changed the master cylinder how did the stud on the clutch pedal look where the master cyl rod connects?

i just realized your running a TKO, is it the f**d or GM version? that looks like a standard pilot bushing in there, did the tranny slip all the way into the bell housing with ease? IE not pulling it in with bolts?

Stevo

iTrader: (45)

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tran...+pilot+bearing

Some good reading there, got me thinking alot

I believe this is a ford trans, but with a GM input shaft, not sure how to find out?

Trans was not easy to get into the pilot bearing always gets stuck there. The FIRST time i put in the trans i got the trans into the pilot bearing with my hands, didnt have to pull the bolts in. Second time i i had to use the bolts to pull the input shaft in. I really didnt think much of it because i did it evenly and it went in pretty easy after it got started.

In the past i have never had an issue using the bolts to pull the trans into the pilot. Never ruined any input shafts or destroyed pilot bearings either.

I am using a standard brass bushing.

Getting the pilot into the crank was a bitch, maybe my crank has something to do with it?

Could the pilot be putting too much tension on the input shaft? Alignment tool spun with ease though and ii have put the pilot on the input before i installed it and it was fine.

I havent had a second hand to get a accurate measurement of the slave rod travel, but awhile back i had someone press it and it was over a 1/2". Once the pedal was pressed it was instantly moving the rod, no delay or squishyness. Also the pedals where the rod connects looks normal. I am using 4th gen pedals.

Stevo

iTrader: (45)

Its a tad higher then the brake pedal.

trackbird

iTrader: (7)

Steve,

What flywheel are you running? I've done T5 and T56 swaps and was hoping I could help. Is it a T5 style flywheel? And as someone asked, does the trans slide easily into the pilot bushing? If it's binding up in the bushing, you'll have problems and that might be what's hanging it up.

Stevo

iTrader: (45)

fidanza alum flywheel. http://store.summitracing.com/partde...1&autoview=sku

Its actually made for an 11" disc but a 10.4-5" clutch fit fine.

No the trans does not slide into the pilot bearing that easy at least it didn't on this install.

86Z

iTrader: (4)

i think your pilot bushing is dragging on the input shaft, you should never pull a tranny in with the bolts, if it's not lined up have someone push in the clutch and put it in, i have the TKO-600 ford style the input shaft is thicker in diameter then the stock gm one with the stock alignment tool it would move up and down in the pilot it was a lot smaller, whats the model of the trans? TCET #

are you using the adapter between the trans and bellhousing?

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

, the tko needs the conversion pilot bearing, the end of the input shaft is larger than the chevy. You can get one from FortesPartsConnection, call and ask for it.

Stevo

iTrader: (45)

It was TCET3550 something i cant find the pic i snapped of the service tag.

Ok stock pilot fit on the input shaft fine, if it were a ford input shaft it would not fit over the input shaft correct?

Yes i'm using the adapter.

I'm going to contact the original owner of the trans on this board and see if it has any input.
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If what you said was true then why was i even able to get the trans in at all? It wouldn't fit into a normal pilot then would it?

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

the one i have is a totally different size, probably more that a 3/32 larger, the stock bushing was not even close.

With the bronze bushing, you may crushed it into shape to "fit" the input-shaft? Im not sure. But like i said, mine is totally different, and came with an adapter pilot

86Z

iTrader: (4)

TCET5009 or TCET5008 would be the numbers, if the stock pilot fit it's a GM.

measure the throw on the fork, it looks like 1/2" but it's not

Stevo

iTrader: (45)

Measured it it the best i could, i would say its 7/16". The second you press the pedal the rod moves, there is no air in this system. Now i wanna know if the master is flexing at the firewall and not allowing me to get full fluid pressure pushed through. My car was originally an automatic and im using 4th gen pedals...I am using the Ubolt, and the pedals have a bracket that goes the over the bolts from the inside.

Stevo

iTrader: (45)

In another thread:

Can you go more into detail with the "clutch pedal where the master cylinder rod pops on was worn halfway through the stud"

The rod was worn half way through how would that happen? Maybe ill get you a pic of my stud where the rod connects.