Moser 12 bolt VS Ford 9 "?
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Moser 12 bolt VS Ford 9 "?
Well, I've come to a conclusion that will make this project of mine a bit more long term due to needing to save extra $, but will be worth it in the end. Rather than spend the money converting my existing 10 bolt to disc brakes, posi, trying to strengthen it up (the whole 9 yards), I've decided I'm better off just sucking it up and getting a real rear end from the get-go.
My question I still have, after looking at the drop-in rears that are available, are what should I go with between the 12-bolt or the 9"? I've heard that the 12-bolts weigh a bit less and have a bit less power loss via-the drivetrain to the rear wheels, but that the 9" is easier/cheaper to find parts for, and is pretty much the rear end to have.
Also, are these units truly drop-in? or is there going to be some fabrication work required?
Thanks!
My question I still have, after looking at the drop-in rears that are available, are what should I go with between the 12-bolt or the 9"? I've heard that the 12-bolts weigh a bit less and have a bit less power loss via-the drivetrain to the rear wheels, but that the 9" is easier/cheaper to find parts for, and is pretty much the rear end to have.
Also, are these units truly drop-in? or is there going to be some fabrication work required?
Thanks!
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Joined: Jul 1999
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From: 51°N 114°W, 3500'
Car: 87 IROC L98
Engine: 588 Alcohol BBC
Transmission: Powerglide
Axle/Gears: Ford 9"/31 spline spool/4.86
Re: Moser 12 bolt VS Ford 9 "?
It becomes a personal preference. Both have their own advantages and disadvantages. Both are relatively equal in strength.
The 9" may have a better advantage because you can make it even lighter by using an aluminum center section. The 9" also doesn't use a "series" for the carrier (posi). You can have 2.50 gears or 7.00 gears and you won't need to get a different posi.
My center section is a Moser bolt through case. I use an aluminum spool and aluminum Daytona pinion support. I can lift the center section in with one hand.
The amount of power lost by using a 9" is minimal and if you did a back to back comparison, you wouldn't notice a difference.
Normal 12 bolt uses 30 spline axles. For the 9", I wouldn't recommend using the 28 spline axles even for a street car. Either go with 31 spline or upgrade to 33 spline. Depending on your power level, 35 spline might be an option but for the majority of the street cars, 35 spline is overkill. Bigger is not better.
By the time you're done, you'll have spent about the same or a little more than what you would have done to the 10 bolt but you'll have a much better diff no matter if you choose to use the 9" or the 12 bolt.
The 9" may have a better advantage because you can make it even lighter by using an aluminum center section. The 9" also doesn't use a "series" for the carrier (posi). You can have 2.50 gears or 7.00 gears and you won't need to get a different posi.
My center section is a Moser bolt through case. I use an aluminum spool and aluminum Daytona pinion support. I can lift the center section in with one hand.
The amount of power lost by using a 9" is minimal and if you did a back to back comparison, you wouldn't notice a difference.
Normal 12 bolt uses 30 spline axles. For the 9", I wouldn't recommend using the 28 spline axles even for a street car. Either go with 31 spline or upgrade to 33 spline. Depending on your power level, 35 spline might be an option but for the majority of the street cars, 35 spline is overkill. Bigger is not better.
By the time you're done, you'll have spent about the same or a little more than what you would have done to the 10 bolt but you'll have a much better diff no matter if you choose to use the 9" or the 12 bolt.
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Re: Moser 12 bolt VS Ford 9 "?
Sweet! Yeah, I'm only planning to turn it into a 350 HP or so street car, maybe a bit more depending if I decide to, but street car for sure. However, it sounds like even those power levels are enough to completely destroy a 10 bolt if you're gonna be doing any clutch dumps or much fun stuff! 
So if I have 30+ spline axles in my rear end, and the front axles are stock, will it affect the handling of the car in a negative way? Also, if I wanted to use OEM GTA or Formula 16x8 wheels (where separate wheels in the set are supposed to be used), is there any way a 12 bolt or 9" would affect that?
So if I have 30+ spline axles in my rear end, and the front axles are stock, will it affect the handling of the car in a negative way? Also, if I wanted to use OEM GTA or Formula 16x8 wheels (where separate wheels in the set are supposed to be used), is there any way a 12 bolt or 9" would affect that?
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Joined: Jul 1999
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From: 51°N 114°W, 3500'
Car: 87 IROC L98
Engine: 588 Alcohol BBC
Transmission: Powerglide
Axle/Gears: Ford 9"/31 spline spool/4.86
Re: Moser 12 bolt VS Ford 9 "?
More splines in the axles means the axles are thicker. Large, thick axles take power to spin them. They also add a lot of unsprung weight so going too large can actually slow you down. When you get into large axles, it's common to buy them gun drilled. That's where they drill out the center of the axle to remove excess weight but you still have the strength of a large diameter axle. Think 1500+ HP cars with 3+ speed transmissions.
From the sounds of what you're planning, a 12 bolt with 30 spline or a 9" with 31 spline is more than enough. Both are far better than your 10 bolt can ever be.
The front of your car doesn't have axles. It has spindles. Technically what we call axles are really called half shafts. The differential has 2 half shafts.
Your tires and rims don't care what differential is under the car.
From the sounds of what you're planning, a 12 bolt with 30 spline or a 9" with 31 spline is more than enough. Both are far better than your 10 bolt can ever be.
The front of your car doesn't have axles. It has spindles. Technically what we call axles are really called half shafts. The differential has 2 half shafts.
Your tires and rims don't care what differential is under the car.
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From: San Diego, CA
Car: 1991 Camaro RS
Engine: LO3
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 3.42 LS1
Re: Moser 12 bolt VS Ford 9 "?
Ok so since u do run a monstrous engine lol I take it one doesn't need nodular iron but can use aluminum instead ?
Does a 9" rear end get it in the way for lowering the car ?
So an aluminum section could handle a twin turbo LQ9 pushing 600 maybe 700 horsies ? (that's my plan down the road)
Does a 9" rear end get it in the way for lowering the car ?
So an aluminum section could handle a twin turbo LQ9 pushing 600 maybe 700 horsies ? (that's my plan down the road)
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Joined: Jul 1999
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From: 51°N 114°W, 3500'
Car: 87 IROC L98
Engine: 588 Alcohol BBC
Transmission: Powerglide
Axle/Gears: Ford 9"/31 spline spool/4.86
Re: Moser 12 bolt VS Ford 9 "?
With that much power, I wouldn't recommend the Strange "Street" aluminum center. That's why I spent the extra money for the Moser bolt through case.
Lowering the car should not have any effect on the diff. If you have the car lowered enough to touch the diff, you have a lot more clearance issues to deal with.
I ran a standard C7AWE non nodular OEM case for many years but they still have limits. The pinion pilot bearing support can crack which will spit the pinion gear out the side of the case if it breaks. I found mine was cracked when I was running mid 9's and was able to replace the case before it failed. Any aftermarket case is much stronger than a factory case. Even the aftermarket iron cases are better than factory if you're trying to save a few bucks instead of buying an aluminum one.
Lowering the car should not have any effect on the diff. If you have the car lowered enough to touch the diff, you have a lot more clearance issues to deal with.
I ran a standard C7AWE non nodular OEM case for many years but they still have limits. The pinion pilot bearing support can crack which will spit the pinion gear out the side of the case if it breaks. I found mine was cracked when I was running mid 9's and was able to replace the case before it failed. Any aftermarket case is much stronger than a factory case. Even the aftermarket iron cases are better than factory if you're trying to save a few bucks instead of buying an aluminum one.
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From: San Diego, CA
Car: 1991 Camaro RS
Engine: LO3
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 3.42 LS1
Re: Moser 12 bolt VS Ford 9 "?
Thanks, I'll definitely come back and ask you more once it's time for me to get a new rear end, may be before or after next deployment.
Actually I didn't even see a Strange 9' for 82-92 nor 93-02 Camaro.
So the Moser M9 is alot stronger than their standard 9" ?
I noticed they do offer gun drilling for 33 (not an option, spool only) and 35 spline axles.
Actually I didn't even see a Strange 9' for 82-92 nor 93-02 Camaro.
So the Moser M9 is alot stronger than their standard 9" ?
I noticed they do offer gun drilling for 33 (not an option, spool only) and 35 spline axles.
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Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 17,263
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From: 51°N 114°W, 3500'
Car: 87 IROC L98
Engine: 588 Alcohol BBC
Transmission: Powerglide
Axle/Gears: Ford 9"/31 spline spool/4.86
Re: Moser 12 bolt VS Ford 9 "?
Moser and Currie offer the 9"
Strange offers the 12 bolt and Dana 60
Strange offers the 12 bolt and Dana 60
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 1,992
Likes: 10
From: CT
Car: 1986 Camaro SC
Engine: 305 TPI Procharged D1SC
Transmission: Tremec TKO-600
Axle/Gears: Moser 12 Bolt 3.73 posi
Re: Moser 12 bolt VS Ford 9 "?
i have a moser 12 bolt with 33 spline axles, thing is rated for 600 ft/lbs of torque, big improvement over the crappy 10 bolt i ripped 7 teeth off the ring gear 
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Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 17,263
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From: 51°N 114°W, 3500'
Car: 87 IROC L98
Engine: 588 Alcohol BBC
Transmission: Powerglide
Axle/Gears: Ford 9"/31 spline spool/4.86
Re: Moser 12 bolt VS Ford 9 "?
I wonder how they came up with that number?
Lets say you have an engine that makes 500 pounds of torque. You have a 700R4 with a 3.06 first gear. 500 x 3.06 = 1530 pounds of torque going into the gears.
The axles have a specific rating also. That 1530 x gear ratio x 0.9 (efficiency) and thats how much torque is applied to the axles. Each axle should be able to handle the full torque.
1530 x 3.73 gears x 0.9 = 5136 pounds of torque getting to the wheels to move the car.
Lets say you have an engine that makes 500 pounds of torque. You have a 700R4 with a 3.06 first gear. 500 x 3.06 = 1530 pounds of torque going into the gears.
The axles have a specific rating also. That 1530 x gear ratio x 0.9 (efficiency) and thats how much torque is applied to the axles. Each axle should be able to handle the full torque.
1530 x 3.73 gears x 0.9 = 5136 pounds of torque getting to the wheels to move the car.
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From: New Boston, IL, USA
Car: '90 Formula 350
Engine: 383 SBC
Transmission: ProBuilt S/S 700-R4 & ACT 9" Stall
Axle/Gears: 10 bolt 3.23
Re: Moser 12 bolt VS Ford 9 "?
I cheated and skipped most of the thread. Like AlkyIROC stated bigger splines when it's not needed is just more weight to sling around.
Here's Spohn's input on it:
http://support.spohn.net/questions/2...hould+I+get%3F
Here's Spohn's input on it:
The main difference between a GM 12 bolt rear end, the Ford 9" rear end and the Dana 60 rear end is the size (and strength) of the ring gear. The 12 bolt rear end has a 8.875" ring gear, the Ford 9" of course has a 9" ring gear and the Dana 60 has a massive 9.75" ring gear. Obviously, the strongest rear end is the Dana 60.
Which do you need? That's a question we get asked often, and there's really no right answer. It mostly just boils down to preference. We'll give you a few opinions to guide you.
You don't want a rear end that is any bigger and heavier then what you need. If you have a car making 450 RWHP, you don't need the added bulk and weight of a Dana 60. Many GM guys refuse to put a "Ford" product under their car, and that's cool too. If you have a street/strip car making under 700 horsepower the 12 bolt will serve you very well.
If you have over 700 horsepower, then we'd recommend a 9" or a Dana 60. The 9" is very easy to work on and can be easily disassembled with simple hand tools. It's also very easy to pull the center section in and out for guys who want to run different gear ratios depending on what they're doing with the car, another big advantage to the 9".
The Dana 60 is a monster, if you have a big horsepower car then you can't go wrong with the Dana 60, drop it in and forget about it.
Which do you need? That's a question we get asked often, and there's really no right answer. It mostly just boils down to preference. We'll give you a few opinions to guide you.
You don't want a rear end that is any bigger and heavier then what you need. If you have a car making 450 RWHP, you don't need the added bulk and weight of a Dana 60. Many GM guys refuse to put a "Ford" product under their car, and that's cool too. If you have a street/strip car making under 700 horsepower the 12 bolt will serve you very well.
If you have over 700 horsepower, then we'd recommend a 9" or a Dana 60. The 9" is very easy to work on and can be easily disassembled with simple hand tools. It's also very easy to pull the center section in and out for guys who want to run different gear ratios depending on what they're doing with the car, another big advantage to the 9".
The Dana 60 is a monster, if you have a big horsepower car then you can't go wrong with the Dana 60, drop it in and forget about it.
http://support.spohn.net/questions/2...hould+I+get%3F
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From: Readsboro, VT
Car: 85 IROC-Z / 88 GTA
Engine: 403 LSx (Pending) / 355 Tuned Port
Transmission: T56 Magnum (Pending) / T5
Axle/Gears: 3.42 / ?
Re: Moser 12 bolt VS Ford 9 "?
A lot of guys on 'tech have complained of gear noise on 12 bolts after a few hard launches. The theory is that the torque arm forces cause a case distortion which results in gear noise. A lot of guys also seem to have a lot of problems with torque arm bolts loosening all the time. To be honest, I really don't see any advantages of a 12 bolt over a 9" that would make me want to buy one.
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 1,992
Likes: 10
From: CT
Car: 1986 Camaro SC
Engine: 305 TPI Procharged D1SC
Transmission: Tremec TKO-600
Axle/Gears: Moser 12 Bolt 3.73 posi
Re: Moser 12 bolt VS Ford 9 "?
A lot of guys on 'tech have complained of gear noise on 12 bolts after a few hard launches. The theory is that the torque arm forces cause a case distortion which results in gear noise. A lot of guys also seem to have a lot of problems with torque arm bolts loosening all the time. To be honest, I really don't see any advantages of a 12 bolt over a 9" that would make me want to buy one.
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Re: Moser 12 bolt VS Ford 9 "?
No one spoke of a rear brace for the 9".Guess you guys think it is overkill.Can't say I don't agree with you all.If your hooking anything hard it isn't a bad idea to paint a stripe down the axles to monitor if your getting any twist on them.
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 12,215
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From: Il
Car: 1989-92 FORMULA350 305 92 Hawkclone
Engine: 4++,350 & 305 CIs
Transmission: 700R4 4800 vig 18th700R4 t56 ZF6 T5
Axle/Gears: 3.70 9"ford alum chunk,dana44,9bolt
Re: Moser 12 bolt VS Ford 9 "?
On the subject hp loss in the rears GM high tech did a rear dyno test on them and a 12 bolt was least hp loss, 9" lost 3-4 hp more than a 12 an then the dana 60 if I remember correctly it lost 12ish more HP than the 9" ?
Id have to look it up again..
On the subject of lowering I've lowered my car 1-1 1/2 and Im running a 9" with aluminum thru bolt case. I had to shim the tq arm mount out a lil bit (even after 3hrs of housing/brace clearancing) to keep the moser cast adapter from hitting the aluminum housing..
The upper bolt on the cast moser bracket that bolts to the rear housing "self clearanced" itself up close to where the fuel pump wires go thru the floorpan..
Id have to look it up again..
On the subject of lowering I've lowered my car 1-1 1/2 and Im running a 9" with aluminum thru bolt case. I had to shim the tq arm mount out a lil bit (even after 3hrs of housing/brace clearancing) to keep the moser cast adapter from hitting the aluminum housing..
The upper bolt on the cast moser bracket that bolts to the rear housing "self clearanced" itself up close to where the fuel pump wires go thru the floorpan..
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From: New Boston, IL, USA
Car: '90 Formula 350
Engine: 383 SBC
Transmission: ProBuilt S/S 700-R4 & ACT 9" Stall
Axle/Gears: 10 bolt 3.23
Re: Moser 12 bolt VS Ford 9 "?
Most companies recommend the 9" rear brace after 700 rwhp is reached.
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 301
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From: Beatrice, Nebraska
Car: 1983 camaro sport coupe
Engine: 2.8l v6 - stock motor
Transmission: NWC t-5
Axle/Gears: whatever came stock (?)
Re: Moser 12 bolt VS Ford 9 "?
Ford 9" from a 50's-early 60's Ford sedan is the way to go. They are already short so you can run nice fat tires under your car, and are tough as nails. Down side is they are getting tough to find.. D60's are even harder to find, unless your willing to spend a whole bunch of $$$ on one.
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Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 17,263
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From: 51°N 114°W, 3500'
Car: 87 IROC L98
Engine: 588 Alcohol BBC
Transmission: Powerglide
Axle/Gears: Ford 9"/31 spline spool/4.86
Re: Moser 12 bolt VS Ford 9 "?
Look at those tiny numbers. That's why I said if you do a back to back comparison, you won't notice a difference. Adding or losing 10 HP and you won't notice it while driving. The difference between the 12 bolt and 9" is less than that. The Dana 60 in a low HP car may be noticeable in a back to back test but with the added weight, that will also be noticeable.
The lower pinion position of the 9" also means if you lower the car, the driveshaft won't be as high up into the floor. It's that lower pinion that increases the power loss. The Dana 60 has an even lower pinion position. The advantage of the lower pinion is there's more tooth contact between the ring and pinion making it stronger. There's always going to be a trade off between something.
The lower pinion position of the 9" also means if you lower the car, the driveshaft won't be as high up into the floor. It's that lower pinion that increases the power loss. The Dana 60 has an even lower pinion position. The advantage of the lower pinion is there's more tooth contact between the ring and pinion making it stronger. There's always going to be a trade off between something.
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 12,215
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From: Il
Car: 1989-92 FORMULA350 305 92 Hawkclone
Engine: 4++,350 & 305 CIs
Transmission: 700R4 4800 vig 18th700R4 t56 ZF6 T5
Axle/Gears: 3.70 9"ford alum chunk,dana44,9bolt
Re: Moser 12 bolt VS Ford 9 "?
Look at those tiny numbers. That's why I said if you do a back to back comparison, you won't notice a difference. Adding or losing 10 HP and you won't notice it while driving. The difference between the 12 bolt and 9" is less than that. The Dana 60 in a low HP car may be noticeable in a back to back test but with the added weight, that will also be noticeable.
The lower pinion position of the 9" also means if you lower the car, the driveshaft won't be as high up into the floor. It's that lower pinion that increases the power loss. The Dana 60 has an even lower pinion position. The advantage of the lower pinion is there's more tooth contact between the ring and pinion making it stronger. There's always going to be a trade off between something.
The lower pinion position of the 9" also means if you lower the car, the driveshaft won't be as high up into the floor. It's that lower pinion that increases the power loss. The Dana 60 has an even lower pinion position. The advantage of the lower pinion is there's more tooth contact between the ring and pinion making it stronger. There's always going to be a trade off between something.
Then there is the weight.. I think they did that also.. D60= strong tank
More power, usually= more weight needed to have a beefy product to handle the power.
In the end it really is a tradeoff on lots of things..
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Re: Moser 12 bolt VS Ford 9 "?
The thought of a rear build first along with the tire sizes in my mind is the correct way to build engines tailored to that ratio.Build the car from the rear forward,but build the rear first.Just my two cents mind you.
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Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 17,263
Likes: 168
From: 51°N 114°W, 3500'
Car: 87 IROC L98
Engine: 588 Alcohol BBC
Transmission: Powerglide
Axle/Gears: Ford 9"/31 spline spool/4.86
Re: Moser 12 bolt VS Ford 9 "?
I still run a 9" although I'm getting close to where a D60 would be a better choice. I have too much invested in the 9" to just switch over. I suppose if I broke the 9" then upgrading to a D60 would be a good option.
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 562
Likes: 27
From: Buffalo, NY
Car: 92 Z28
Engine: LS3
Transmission: TR6060
Axle/Gears: Strange S60 3.73
Re: Moser 12 bolt VS Ford 9 "?
I've been looking into 12 bolt vs 9" for my build. The 9" has my vote for strength, ease of maintenance and no need for c-clip eliminators. I've also heard too many gear grinding stories with aftermarket 12 bolts. Below place makes a fabricated 9" rear. Rear comes with torque arm and crossmember. They have received good reviews. I agree with what Gary said about starting with rear end and moving forward. We all want a mean engine first but we need a strong rear. We just have to suck up the cost and move on
http://www.midwestchassis.com/products.html
http://www.midwestchassis.com/fabd9specs.html
http://www.midwestchassis.com/products.html
http://www.midwestchassis.com/fabd9specs.html
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 12,215
Likes: 1,140
From: Il
Car: 1989-92 FORMULA350 305 92 Hawkclone
Engine: 4++,350 & 305 CIs
Transmission: 700R4 4800 vig 18th700R4 t56 ZF6 T5
Axle/Gears: 3.70 9"ford alum chunk,dana44,9bolt
Re: Moser 12 bolt VS Ford 9 "?
Ive been to Erics shop (midwest Chassis) many times..
Good guy, waaay busy most of the time!
Good guy, waaay busy most of the time!
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,204
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From: New Boston, IL, USA
Car: '90 Formula 350
Engine: 383 SBC
Transmission: ProBuilt S/S 700-R4 & ACT 9" Stall
Axle/Gears: 10 bolt 3.23
Re: Moser 12 bolt VS Ford 9 "?
Eric over at Midwest does make nice stuff from what I've seen. There is a user on here using it. Some guys over at ls1tech are doing asome serious launches with them. My only gripe was when I checked in they wanted more for a limited slip option (comes with spool) when their base package states posi.
I also looked into Quick Performance. My gripe there was they don't offer reallocation brackets by default on there axle/housing package. They told me they were redoing there design and I would have to buy them elsewhere.
In anycase stock 9" are pretty weak when compared to aftermarket. These days it's easier just to buy a package and it's stronger.
I also looked into Quick Performance. My gripe there was they don't offer reallocation brackets by default on there axle/housing package. They told me they were redoing there design and I would have to buy them elsewhere.
In anycase stock 9" are pretty weak when compared to aftermarket. These days it's easier just to buy a package and it's stronger.
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,804
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From: Raleigh, NC
Car: 1988 Flame Red Trans am GTA
Engine: Forged 355 4 Bolt, FIRST TPI
Transmission: 700r4
Axle/Gears: ls1 torsen 3.42 gear
Re: Moser 12 bolt VS Ford 9 "?
i broke my stock nine bolt and busted a 4th gen ten bolt.... my next rear is either a moser 12 or a ford 9... get tired of gm making shitty parts..
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,057
Likes: 3
From: Malvern, Arkansas
Car: 90 IROC 2-92 Zs blk vert & prpl
Engine: stealth ram brodix track 1 ful port
Transmission: 700r4 4l80e
Axle/Gears: iroc 375 lokr 92 Z 277 pos vert 327
Re: Moser 12 bolt VS Ford 9 "?
More options with a ford 9 and I am a 12 bolt fan but I have a ford 9 under my Iroc and 9 bolts under everything else that is 400 hp or less. My 92 vert with the factory 305 is definately less than 400 HP LOL. I bought polished gears (375), yoke, detroit locker and large bearing pinion support from Hendrick Motor Sports. My yoke (1350) has the pulley on it for the rear end cooler they use. I always look for there used parts since they only use them a little and get new. There prices are great as well.
Last edited by abray1; Aug 23, 2011 at 03:04 PM.
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