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I need help selecting a torque converter for my 83' camaro. I will be using the 700R4. I am building a nice 383 stroker for it. I am using an XR282HR comp cam with this build. It is going to have 3.73s in the rear. Comp's website says 2000-2500 speed stall converter but I am not sure what is best for my car. My intentions is for this to be a nasty weekend street machine, but able to handle some daily driver conditions.
So I need to know what stall speed range? Lock-up or no lock-up? What brand?
Doesn't matter how the rest of the car is set up. For best performance, the converter needs to be match to the camshaft.
The XR282HR has an operating range of 2200-5800. Comp recommends at 2500+ converter which is just about right. For street/strip performance, you want a converter that stalls about 500 rpm into the powerband. That would be around 2700 rpm. For full race, you want the stall around 1000 rpm into the powerband which would be 3200 rpm.
Since each car is different and a converter's stall speed depends on how much torque is put into it, you need to take a wild guess at a stall speed somewhere in that range. Too much stall speed can be just as bad as not enough.
The converter stall speed is to allow the engine to quickly get into it's powerband. Driving around with an engine rpm below the stall speed means the converter needs to slip. The more a converter slips, the more heat it generates. Heat is bad for transmissions.
If you want a dead on get this stall, dyno your engine and go from there. Id say u would be happy with a 2500 but since ull be getting a lock up u can go as big as u want.
Okay so I should be looking at a stall speed range anywhere form 2500-3000 with Lock-up. I wish I could have this dynoed, but that's a little unrealistic for me. So the lock-up allows it to turn at cruising speeds even if its below the stall speed?
The stock converter I believe is 12". Most aftermarket converters are in the 9.5" to 10.5" sizes. For vehicles like trucks and SUV's. Any sort of towing involved, people tend to run the larger 10.5" converters. For high performance cars, better to stick with a 9.5"
The larger sizes have more clutch area, which is good for heat (heavy trucks and or towing). But the larger size makes it harder to get those higher stall numbers. The larger size also tend to be tighter feeling when driving, compared to the higher performance 9.5" converters. (More on that below)
I still think 2500-3000 is too low for a cam'ed car. Stock heads/cam cars run 2800-3200 stalls all the time. The general consensus on LS1 cars is 3600 stall at the minimum and 4000 stall on heads and/or cam. LS1 people with 3200 wish they had 3600. And the ones that bought 3600 seem to be about 75/25% in terms of sticking with 3600 vs going up to 4000.
Most people want more stall after putting in a converter. Very few want less. And everybody is nervous about getting too much before hand. This is true for every engine in every car. L98, LS1, 350, 383, you name it.
My wife's LT1 with stock heads/cam and 3.73 gears had a Vigilante 2800 (stalled in the 3000-3200 area). She absolutely loved it.
Your car by virtue of having 3.73 instead of 3.23 or 2.73 is going to stall less than a stock geared car. So you can get away with more stall. It's like the difference between towing a boat with 4 people in a vehicle vs being by yourself and towing nothing. It takes more pedal with the fully loaded vehicle to get going. It takes less with nothing/nobody else...... The 3.73 gears are like the second instance. Takes less gas to get going, which means your stall isn't noticed as much.
Super heavy trucks/SUV's that tow, since they're so heavy, make the stall very noticeable. That's why they tend to stick with 10.5" tighter feeling converters. We're in a better situation with our cars. We get more performance with less trade off with the smaller 9.5" size.
With a lock up converter, your highway driving is 100% the same as a stock converter. It's only for those brief moments when your converter unlocks to pass somebody on the highway (or maybe not if you're going fast enough already). Around the city, it's only below 40 mph that you're running in unlocked mode. Figure your RPM's being at 2000-2200 instead of the usual 1800 or so RPM when cruising around town.
Phone up Chris at Circle D or fill out his ask Chris section at the website. Send him your cam specs and plans for the car. He can answer this stuff better than I can.
I've owned a motor with that cam (a 400), and around 2400 was where it started making power. So anywhere within a couple hundred RPMs of that should at least be satisfactory even if perhaps not quite "optimum".
I'd guess about 2800 - 3000 would put it within 10% or so of its peak torque. "Optimum" would probably be closer up to there.
Keep in mind that the more gear you have, (a) the less load there will be on it, and therefore the easier it will be for it to "hook up"; and (b) the higher the engine RPM will be overall, and therefore more likely to be above its stall and therefore "hooked up" ANYWAY.
Converter selection for the street is a bunch of trade-offs. It's not like you can plug a few numbers into a formula, crank the handle, and have "the" "perfect" answer fall out the other end. THINK about what it is you're trading off (power, gas mileage, leave, heat, trans longevity, .... and so forth), decide what's most important to you and what's least important (what you're willing to give up in exchange for getting what else), and go from there.
A smaller converter, at ay given stall speed, will always give better results. A large converter has a wide band of RPM between "slip" and "hooked up"; a smaller one is easier to make act like a switch, where it's completely loose up to a point, then when that point is reached, suddenly it becomes almost metallic. Again, a trade-off, that YOU have to decide where along all the various continua you want to live.
Chris recommended the 298mm model with 2500 or the 245mm with 2800-3000 stall
Are B&M or Hughes Performance products any good?
I own a Hughes, and it's OK. Not terrible, but not great. B&M's are trash, though.. and neither of them can hold a candle compared to Circle D's, Vigilante, etc. I have a 4200 stall converter from Chris @ Circle D, and the quality difference is night and day between a cheap converter and a good converter. I won't buy cheap converters anymore, heh.
I'd get a 3,000 if I were you. That way you get a car that drives real close to stock, and when you mash the pedal it throws you deep in your seat as opposed to the "meh" from a 2500 stall converter. That's just me, though.
Great discussion- I'm gonna bump up to 2018. I have a near same question re: my '89 5.7. Full exhaust, 3.45 but stock heads, tires and most imp. stock cam.
For my goal right now of 2500 stall and given relative cost I'm between Precision of New Hampton (which another TGO member mentions elsewhere, ty) and the usual widely acclaimed Vig. Weight, torque multiplication and warranty info will decide but for now should I possibly be thinking 2800 or even 3000? Would u-d pulleys and RR arms change the equation or too piddly to consider? "Stock cam fun street no strip use 3.45 rear = 2500" is where I'm at now..but this one comment stands out
Most people want more stall after putting in a converter. Very few want less. And everybody is nervous about getting too much before hand.
->Torque converter 12" 30 spline lockup 700r4 4l60
All these are lock-up, furnace brazed, have hardened splines, enclosed/sealed bearings and anti-ballooning plate:
Vigilante (PI, Precision Industries) 9.5" $999 | 3disc | 2200 - 3800 rpm | 2.2 - 2.6 | weight
2 year warranty and a free stall change
*note Hampton has an interesting multi-roller sprag, which I havent seen elsewhere..
..secondary question too:
Would 2500 stall require a trans cooler way less than 28/3000? Would 3disc and/or the topshelf construction of these best makes maybe negate the need for a trans cooler?
Alrighty, workin on a Saturday landed Circle D my biz. Agreed 2500 until cam, motor etc upgraded significantly.
Here's Circle D's response vs Vigilante:
Thanks for dropping us a line. There are some differences in our converter compared to the PI unit. We machine all of our billet parts in house like they do, but use a larger converter mounting pad design in our front cover, and we incorporate a deep groove ball bearing into our front cover for maximum durability and efficiency. I believe the PI units have a brass bushing in the front cover. Our converters also feature hand TIG welding on the individual fins and a heavy duty impeller hub that does not crack like some competitors. The turbine hubs are heat treated and welded in by hand for maximum strength as well. If you opt for the multi disk, our clutches feature turbulator holes to improve flow, and reduce parasitic loss. I think PI makes a great converter, but I believe our special updates take things to the next level. I have attached some pics for reference. Please let me know if you have any questions!
The product you have of theirs in your post above is their 10.5" converter line. If you're not supercharged or making massive horsepower or towing, I'd go for their 9.5" (245 mm) line of products. Lighter weight, easier to get the high stall speeds. A lot of truck people stick with the 10.5" converters for performance while still retaining truck use.
http://www.circledspecialties.com/4l...o-series-245mm Looking at the 245mm options, they line up with the "C" list I have above. Except that it starts at 2C and goes past 5C now. I'm pretty sure Circle D would build you a 245 mm 1C (3000-3200) converter if you wanted them to. They probably took it off their web page because so few people opt for low stalls these days. I'd be surprised if they've ever had a customer call and say their 1C was too much converter.
No need for triple disc converters unless you're planning on manually locking up the converter at the dragstrip. So save yourself the money and get the single disc. That money saved will pay for a cooler.
Do you need a cooler? That depends. If you daily drive and get stuck in traffic on the 401, then I'd definitely get a cooler. If you only drive on winding country roads and hit the gas pedal in open areas from time to time, you could make do without. A 2500-3000 stall converter is only going to slip maybe 200 RPM higher at any given time casually accelerating down the road. Not a huge amount of slip. Now the 4000 stall guys, they're accelerating at 2500-2800 RPM just driving to the grocery store.
Having said that, I'd still recommend a cooler for ANY converter swap. A good stacked plate transmission cooler will take all the worry out of heat. The stacked plate designs are worth the small extra cost over the tube&fin designs. I'm running a 4490 Tru-Cool converter. Different size options are here: http://www.trucool.com/products/tru-cool-lpd
Ask yourself this. Put the shifter in 2 and go to 2500 RPM. Now mash the throttle. Do you like how the power range feels? Try it again only this time at 3000 RPM. Better? If so, go for a 3000 stall.
Converters are like window tint. First time buyers swear the tint will be too dark. About 2 days later, they wish they'd gone for 1 shade darker. Big screen TV's are the same way too. Going from a 32" to a 50", it will seem huge for a week. Then it will seem normal size. And the person will wonder why didn't they opt for a 55 or 60" TV.......Going with a 2500 stall, I guarantee you will think you could have easily gone for a 3000.
The "401"! You know the territory, lol. Thank you for the comments Reid, very informative. I kind of settled on 2500 half from the common first-TC-wimpiness re: streetabilty and half out of concern for the mild bolt-ons and esp. stock cam. A member kindly educated me the '89 had a pretty good one but I didn't want to "outrun" it.
Brian did say the 245mm so you're right on there. (I suppose my 2500 isn't a big deal for them to custom set on it.) More importantly he did say higher was an option if I did do deeper engine mods in the future.
The vids look fine! I was freaked it'd be "flashing" up when you're doin the grocery store run..frankly it looks like a mere adjustment of pedal pressure.
Given the install is a pretty serious job dropping the tranny I'm now thinkin 3000 as you advise. Moreover it's 300 bones if you change your mind down the road. *Also, the fact their site for the 245mm only begins at 3200 (-4600) is pretty telling. And you're right: the bigger 700r4 ones start mentioning trucks.
Finally, half its driving life will be in dead traffic so I'll definitely look into the trans cooler to accompany!
Not to derail this, but where is this from? Everything I have read has told me my 89 305 Auto had the peanut cam, this only seems to show it in an 87 auto? Anyone?
Originally Posted by SirReveller
The "401"! You know the territory, lol. Thank you for the comments Reid, very informative. I kind of settled on 2500 half from the common first-TC-wimpiness re: streetabilty and half out of concern for the mild bolt-ons and esp. stock cam. A member kindly educated me the '89 had a pretty good one but I didn't want to "outrun" it.
Brian did say the 245mm so you're right on there. (I suppose my 2500 isn't a big deal for them to custom set on it.) More importantly he did say higher was an option if I did do deeper engine mods in the future.
The vids look fine! I was freaked it'd be "flashing" up when you're doin the grocery store run..frankly it looks like a mere adjustment of pedal pressure.
Given the install is a pretty serious job dropping the tranny I'm now thinkin 3000 as you advise. Moreover it's 300 bones if you change your mind down the road. *Also, the fact their site for the 245mm only begins at 3200 (-4600) is pretty telling. And you're right: the bigger 700r4 ones start mentioning trucks.
Finally, half its driving life will be in dead traffic so I'll definitely look into the trans cooler to accompany!
The product you have of theirs in your post above is their 10.5" converter line. If you're not supercharged or making massive horsepower or towing, I'd go for their 9.5" (245 mm) line of products. Lighter weight, easier to get the high stall speeds. A lot of truck people stick with the 10.5" converters for performance while still retaining truck use.
http://www.circledspecialties.com/4l...o-series-245mm Looking at the 245mm options, they line up with the "C" list I have above. Except that it starts at 2C and goes past 5C now. I'm pretty sure Circle D would build you a 245 mm 1C (3000-3200) converter if you wanted them to. They probably took it off their web page because so few people opt for low stalls these days. I'd be surprised if they've ever had a customer call and say their 1C was too much converter.
No need for triple disc converters unless you're planning on manually locking up the converter at the dragstrip. So save yourself the money and get the single disc. That money saved will pay for a cooler.
Do you need a cooler? That depends. If you daily drive and get stuck in traffic on the 401, then I'd definitely get a cooler. If you only drive on winding country roads and hit the gas pedal in open areas from time to time, you could make do without. A 2500-3000 stall converter is only going to slip maybe 200 RPM higher at any given time casually accelerating down the road. Not a huge amount of slip. Now the 4000 stall guys, they're accelerating at 2500-2800 RPM just driving to the grocery store.
Having said that, I'd still recommend a cooler for ANY converter swap. A good stacked plate transmission cooler will take all the worry out of heat. The stacked plate designs are worth the small extra cost over the tube&fin designs. I'm running a 4490 Tru-Cool converter. Different size options are here: http://www.trucool.com/products/tru-cool-lpd
Ask yourself this. Put the shifter in 2 and go to 2500 RPM. Now mash the throttle. Do you like how the power range feels? Try it again only this time at 3000 RPM. Better? If so, go for a 3000 stall.
Converters are like window tint. First time buyers swear the tint will be too dark. About 2 days later, they wish they'd gone for 1 shade darker. Big screen TV's are the same way too. Going from a 32" to a 50", it will seem huge for a week. Then it will seem normal size. And the person will wonder why didn't they opt for a 55 or 60" TV.......Going with a 2500 stall, I guarantee you will think you could have easily gone for a 3000.
Getting the 3000 stall Circle D through Dana @ Probuilt along w the street/strip shift kit. He's actually carrying the Circle D's > Vigilante now FYI.
Anyway, Reid: Tru-Cool rules the forum for trans coolers but some get the 4589. Thicker, bit more power..yet less plates(?). How did you arrive at the 4490? Cheers
11-21-2012, 07:46 PM
