Thanks for replying to me about the suspension guys!! Still a bit confused though!! Was the WS6 offered as an option for v6's in 1988? My bird has 15 inch diamond spoke wheels and front disks with rear drums, if that helps, coz i also know that 14 inch wheels were standard on cars without WS6. Unfortunately, am out of town so cant check RPO for another couple of weeks, but this is driving me nuts!!!!

 

My car has 15's and isn't WS6....although I think it's POSSIBLE, I highly doubt your car is WS6. No offense...but let us know anyways.

 

thanks for replying, will tell if the car is WS6 or not as soon as I can check it up, in a couple of weeks though!!!

 

Check your RPO codes for, you guessed it, WS6. If its not in there, then you don't have the WS6 package.

I believe that you can find your RPO codes under the center console lid.

 

After 1986, all F-bodies received 15 inch wheels as standard equipment. WS6 had 16 inch wheels after 86. Chances are (if the rims are original) the car is not WS6 equipped. However, due to WS6 being a handling package, there are a handful of WS^ v6 cars out there.

 

i thought all f-body's had 16 inch rims mine are 16's and they are stock

 

91 with 15"

our cars came with 15" and 16", I think some of the earlier ones even came with 14's

 

Yeah, not all 3rd gens came with 16's... I think only the 82-84 base models came with 14" wheels, and the rest were 15's. My original wheels were from an '84 trans am, and they were 15's.

 

WHAT YA GOT
I THINK
is a F41 package with the buyer/purchaser checking off rear disc option for the car.
I'll bet that could be ordered even if you have a V6.
My car has a combo of Y99 & F41.
I have the 15" pinwheel just like the Firebird pic at top of the pages.
And big beefy sway bars front & rear & great steering.
When ya see the codes, you may find this "Package" listed as separate items, not just saying "WS6".
My 1985 Firebird came WITHOUT the code sheet glued on backside console door.
YET I found the factory build sheet/birth certificate, to let me know what I got on my ride.
I found my build sheet under back driver side rear seat cushion.
You may find yours, you may not.
part of fun of finding the clues!
PS previous owner may have swapped in those items, too.
Look for marks on REAR BRAKE HOSE, trailing arms for circles from sockets used to install & remove, etc.
Good score!
IS THERE A VISIBLE CODE INK STAMPED ON STEERING BOX & WHAT IS IT?
Better Steering (ratio) box is part of the WS6/F41 package, too.

 

Most of you guys are right... 1982-1985, 14 inch wheels were standard, with 15 inch being the upgrade. In 1985, I believe that you could get 14, 15, or 16 inch wheels. The next year, they went to 15 inch standard, and 16 inch as the upgrade. I have seen plenty of V6 cars with the larger wheels, but mostly it was an option for appearance's sake. You could order any wheel you wanted on any car. I have never seen a WS6 car with a V6 engine, and I don't believe that they exist. I have also never seen a 3rd gen with 4 wheel discs that wasn't converted. In the early 80's, some V6 cars didn't even get a rear swaybar. I could definitely be wrong about the WS6, V6 car, but the springs for the WS6 package were different, right? I don't think they would go to the trouble of producing those for a V6 when they knew it would be low production. Like I said earlier, I'm no expert, but I have never seen or heard mention in all of my reading of anything like that available on the V6. If someone has one, it is surely one of the rarest options ever produced on the 3rd gen Firebird.

 

There is a guy on the history board (kizz) who has a Firebird SE that is a documented LL1/WS6 car. WS6 was a handling package that was optional on the SE (F41 was standard). FE1 was the base suspension/handling combo.

For camaros -- I'm not sure. Most of this info came up recently on the history/resto board.

 

3rd gen with rear disc brake not stock??? HA, I have seen quite a few. I belive that would be on the VERY VERY top end 3rd gen like the TA, and Iroc and z28. I belive part of that famous WS6 is rear disc brake stock.

 

Dale

Not to be picky but you have fallen into the common trap made by third gen owners in assuming that WS6 included rear disc brakes (RPO J65). Such is not the case. For many years throughout the course of 82-92, there were some years that ws6 did not have rear disc. And I believe J65 was seperate from WS6 more years than the years it was attatched.

 

3rd Gen & V-6 & 4 Wheel disc "stock" is the discussion.
The V-6 & 4 wheel disc is the special question?
or perhaps Tom P snuck over to the car & installed a disc rear!

The springs...
GOOD POINT...
I know my "springs" may be "an upgrade" from the stock base.
Wish I "knew" the V-6 F41/Y99 spring specs, I'd order another set from Moog.
I have a TRW spring catalog.
I need to know "spring height" "coil thickness" & the "coiled spring pressure rating" for the part number.
AFGT has installed HiPo V-8 springs in his ride.
YET, I do not know if he "cut coil" for desired ride height.

I "custom ordered" my 1969 Z-28 coil springs (for use in my 1967 Camaro) that way to match the custom made 1969 Z-28 rear leaf springs.
1969 "Z-28" rear leaf springs are FOUR LEAFS, not FIVE leafs as in a V-8 (307/327/396) powered Camaro from 1969.
ALL SIX cylinder 1967-69 Camaros are monoleaf (including all V-8 1967 powered rides).

CAMARO WHITE BOOK
1983 model year says that J65 (4 whl disc) is only on V-8 rides
1984, same
1985, same
1986, AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
REQUIRED ONLY WITH THE POSI OPTION (G80)
1987 SAYS REQUIRED IROC, REQUIRED G92 (V-8 PERF AXLE) OR B2L ENGINE (IROC V-8)
1988 says required G80 AND V-8 ENGINE
1989 REQUIRED THE LE-1 PACKAGE FOR 4 WHEEL DISC
OR THE G92 PACKAGE & V-8
1990 - 92 SEE ABOVE OR YA'D NEED HAVE A POLICE PERSUIT SPEC'D RS

SO
Let's Assume Pontiacguy1 is correct
and the White Book is correct.
Nope, seems previous owner added.
You's SO LUCKY you didn't do the labor!

 

Nope and Nope

3rd gen and V-6 and WS6 is the discussion.

The V6 and WS6 is the special question.

WS6 was the top of the line handling package and (using KED's info on J65) did not include 4-wheel disc except in 1982.

 

I just remembered this; wasn't it possible to bring a VIN to the dealer and get the RPO code list? That'd solve the whole mystery, to see if WS6 and J65 are listed on the sheet. And I'd like to murder whatever little gremlin likes taking RPO sheets out of junkyard cars!!!

 

And yeah, that swap was a total bitch... if only I knew about the 82-88 rear disc recall when I started the project, I could've saved gallons and gallons of brake fluid. You should've seen my hands halfway thru the job, brake fluid sucks in moisture- my hands looked like a 99 year old man's! I had no sense of touch in my fingers. As soon as I saw that, I put rubber gloves on, and always will, from now on.

"Tom P's fluid hate list", most hated at the top!
1. antifreeze (sticky, always winds up on the floor and my jeans and the back of my shirt)
2. brake fluid (slimy, always winds up on floor, very slippery when your feet are wet from outside rain)
3. rear gear oil (stinks like cat ****)

The rest I can deal with.

 

Wish I could score a "White Book" for Firebirds as cheap as I did for the Camaros!
I have WS6 on my 1985 Firebird!
I scored the FOUR WS6 "Silver/Grey" center caps for $7
AND MY WIFE LOST ONE OF THE SET I HAD! ****!

 

Thanks for all the input bout the suspension guys! Will definitely let you guys know bout whether the car has WS6 or not in it once I get back and can check it out, and even if not stock WS6, what mods were done by the previous owner to the suspension.

 

Tom, question, you said that it might be possible to get the RPO from a dealer with teh VIN? coz if Im missing my RPO, might just do that?

 

I did not mean to Confuse.... I meant to say in my post above that I have never seen a 3rd gen V6 with rear wheel disc brakes that wasn't converted. Of course I know that they are available on some of the high performance cars. I have 4 wheel discs on my car after pirating the rear end out of an '88 GTA.

Wow, someone has a documented WS6 car with a V6! That has to be really rare, indeed.

 

I know gm keeps the rpo codes for up to a certian length of time, or started keeping them sometime. I did call my 93 s10 truck into the dealership and have them print me out one. Cost a few buxs. Also called in a friends 93 vette for his list to prove to some place that it came STOCK with a 94 color, they didnt belive him. All that was back in 2000.

 

If you are really really curious about your car's history, you could contact Pontiac Historical Services. I think that they charge 20 bux to do a history search on a car, but they can come up with all kinds of cool stuff. I did one on my 1984 15th anniversary TA, and they sent me a copy of the original window sticker along with some production numbers, and a copy of the dealer bulletin that announced the 15th anniversary edition, among other things. Like I said, it isn't free, but they can tell you a lot.

 

I could see them keeping a copy of a 15th anniversary car's sticker price; but do you think they'd have anything that useful on a boring plain 'ol v6 car? Hm... I might try for it...

 

The current cost is now $35.
PHS has an EXTENSIVE amount of information regarding the Pontiac car line.
AND it doesn't matter IF your PONTIAC ride is a 4 cylinder 6 cylinder or 8.
They supply the vehicle build sheet, dealer sticker that went on door and also the factory record for the vehicle built.
WHY PONTIAC AND NOT OTHER GM PRODUCTS?
Well.....
IF you own a Corvette that was built at the BOWLING GREEN plant (which started in the 1982 model year, as Chevy was stopping production at St. Louis & starting at Bowling Green), the build sheet, dealer delivery paperwork is also available, for the a$king.
And again, why not other GM products?
Well, Bunky, ya feel lucky, cause, basically, too bad.
GM didn't intend for us to "worship" our cars until the owners are in the grave.
It's just the way things worked in the end.
GM wants us to keep buying their product.

 

wouldn't you saying that your v6 coming with the ws6 package would be similar to the camaro v6 coming with the iroc package? wasn't the iroc package only a suspension package? i have never seen one that was original....my .02

 

Nope -- not for third gen's

It wasn't until 1996 or 97 that the WS6 was an appearance package as well with special wheel, ram air etc.

On third gens -- WS6 included stiffer shocks, beefier sway bars, and (possibly) 16 inch wheels. Firebirds had WS6 on the centercaps.

I'm going to post a link to this thread in the history board -- Those guys will set us straight

 

i think i have ws6

 

Not going to correct mistakes, just provide a link.

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...threadid=35106

A V6 (not TTA) with WS6? Ummm, no. Not in this country.

Overview:
82-85's had 4 wheel discs as part of WS6.
85-up had 16's for the wheels with WS6, period.
If you have 16's, you have WS6. No way around that either.
16" rims first available in 1984, 15th Anniversary TA.

 

Madmax

Thanks for the link!

I wasn't aware that WS6 had disc brakes included for as many years (i thought it was only 82)

But what about kizz's Firebird S/E? It is an early model bird (84) and he says its a LL1/WS6 car in his sig.

 

I'll have to verify that later. I dont think its something you could order, but as with anything GM makes, anything is possible as a one of none.

 

I don't see what all the fuss is about....

My 84 car is indeed a 2.8 V6 with WS6 package. 100% factory stock, as far as the drivetrain is concerned. I don't see why this is such a big deal. WS6 was available on Trans Am and on Firebird S/E. but I'm not too familiar with newer years.

By default, Firebird S/E came with a V6 engine, and an LG4 V8 was optional. It just so happens that whoever bought my car new decided to get the WS6 upgrade and decided he didn't need a bigger motor so he stayed with the HO V6, code LL1. This engine was S/E and S/E-only. No other model could have it.

I felt super lucky when I found it locally. It had 103K miles, and looked super clean. I kept it for a while and then sold it locally again, to a guy who ended up totally destroying it and not making payments, so I seized it back and it hasn't been running since September 2002. He put on 12K miles in 4 months, transmission got fried and lost 3rd and 4th, has pretty much no brakes, exhaust rotted out, interior trashed, engine bay filthy, body dents and rust, motor won't even start. It's a real shame. I offered it free to a buddy of mine but he doesn't have the room. I don't know what I'll do with it.

Here's some stats on the car: 700R4 4-speed AT, 2.8 V6 HO 125HP (S/E only, 83-84), A/C HVAC, AM/FM no cassette, cruise/tilt, power seat, hardtop, 4-wheel disc (WS6), posi 3.73 (WS6), WS6 sway bars either 32mm/21mm or 36mm/24mm (haven't measured them), beige/gold two-tone (84-only), gold wheels in 15 inch mandatory with WS6 that year (84-only in this shade gold and wheel type), mandatory beige body side molding, mandatory beige "S/E" and "Firebird" logos, dual tailpipe exhaust coming out on driver's side of rear bumper (S/E-only setup), mandatory body-color taillight eagle (beige) on mandatory T/A taillights, "chocolate" interior in multi-shade brown (83-84 only) with brown S/E trim pieces (S/E only)... can't think of what else to mention.

Here's a profile pic before the abuse it suffered in 2002. If you guys have any questions, let me know.

GT

 

various pix

 

Kizz

I did have one question

In terms of the LL1, was there any difference in the camshaft specs between the LC1 and the LL1? Or is the only difference in the valve size?

Reason being -- I have an LC1 and an LB8 in my garage and figured if I put the LB8 heads on the LC1 I'd have an LL1.

 

PS That S/e is awesome! (in any condition IMO) Too bad it doesn't drive as I'd love to get a hold of that. I have a bu8nch of yards up here that if I shell out enough $$ or hit the yard on a good day, many of the issyues could be repaired.

Haul it up to the Nationals -- I'll fix it!

 

What does the oil pressure gauge read to, what number?
What is the VIN
MINUS the last SIX numbers?

It's possible that perhaps previous owner installed a V-6 & had sold the V-8.
WHY
WHY NOT?
You have bought car used.
Dash could answer that & so could you VIN.
Your VIN has a code stating a V-6 or a V-8 was installed.
Have you found the build sheet?
I found mine under the driver side BACK SEAT CUSHION.
My car is MINUS the RPO sticker in the center dash flip lid.
YET my build sheet says I have the F41/Y99 combo.
It's true as I have very hefty sway bars, front & rear & a tighter steering ratio, and the 15" Pinwheels (see the Blue Firebird at top) which is part of the Formula/WS6 package, too. (Maybe 16" were WS6, no true confirming facts to me)
Yet my VIN says V-6 & I'm minus 4WDiscs & a posi.

 

To be honest with you, I don't know. I know the HO V6 was rated at 125 HP and the regular V6 was rated at 107 HP, and that the HO V6 was S/E-only, meaning you could not order it on the base Firebird. If I had a parts & illustration book I would look it up for you. anyone else have one?

 

The oil gauge goes 0 - 40 - 80. The VIN is 1G2AX87L4EL2*****. I don't have the build sheet. I already stated it was factory stock. here are my RPO's

AAA : 4-WAY MANUAL SEAT ADJUSTER
AC3 : ADJUSTER, FRT ST, POWER, 6 WAY, BKT, DRIVER
AK1 : RESTRAINT SYSTEM, FRT, CTR, RR SEAT, FRT SHLDR,
AM9 : SEAT, RR, SPLIT, BACK, FLDG
AR9 : SEAT, FRT BKT, EUROPEAN STYLE, PASS A DRIVER RECL
A01 : WINDOW, TINTED, ALL SHADED, W/S
A31 : WINDOW, POWER OPERATED, SIDE
A90 : LOCK CONTROL, RR COMPT LID, REM CONT ELEC RELEASE
BS1 : INSULATION, ACOUSTICAL PKG
BV8 : ORNAMENTATION, EXTR DR HANDLE, LOCK CYLINDER,
B20 : ORNAMENTATION, INTR, LUXURY
B34 : COVERING, FRT FLOOR MATS CARPETED INSERT
B35 : COVERING, REAR, FLOOR MATS CARPETED INSERT
B84 : ORNAMENTATION, EXTR MLDG, B0DY SIDE
B94 : ORNAMENTATION, EXTR EMBLEM, BODY, VAR I
C60 : HVAC SYSTEM, AIR CONDITIONER FRT MAN CONTROLS
D03 : PAINT, PROCESS, WATER BASE
D1T : GEAR, SPEEDO DRIVEN
D35 : MIRROR, OUTSIDE REAR VIEW
D80 : SPOILER, RR END PNL
D92 : STRIPE, EXTR DR HANDLE
E5Z : SPEEDOMETER ADAPTER (DELETE)
Unable to locate code E6N in our database!
GT4 : AXLE REAR, 3.73 RATIO
G80 : AXLE POSITRACTION, LIMITED SLIP
J65 : BRAKE SYSTEM, PWR, FRT & RR DISC
K19 : REACTOR SYSTEM, AIR INJECTION
K34 : CRUISE CONTROL, AUT0MATIC, ELECTRONIC
K64 : GENERATOR, 78 AMP
Unable to locate code LL1 in our database!
MD8 : TRANSMISSION, AUTO 4 SPD, THM 700 R4
Unable to locate code MX0 in our database!
NA5 : EMISSION SYSTEM, FEDERAL, TIER O
NB1 : EMISSION SYSTEM, CLOSED LOOP
NP5 : STEERING WHEEL, LEATHER WRAPPED
N09 : LOCK CONTROL, FUEL FILLER DR
N33 : STEERING COLUMN, TILT TYPE
N65 : WHEEL & TIRE,SPARE, SPACE SAVER, STEEL
N78 : WHEEL, I4 X 6, ALUMINUM, HUB CAP, WHEEL NUTS
QYH : TIRE ALL, P215/65R15/N WOL R/PE ST TL HWY
TR9 : LAMP, GROUP
T93 : LAMP, TAIL & STOP, SPECIAL
UL1 : RADIO, AM/FM STEREO CLOCK ETR
UN9 : RADIO, SUPPRESSION EQUIPMENT
UP8 : STEREO RADIO INSTALLMENT PROVISIONS
UT1 : TONE GENERATOR, WARNING
U21 : CLUSTER, INST, OIL, COOL TEMP, VOLTS, TACH
U23 : CLUSTER, INST, TRIM ODOM
U25 : LAMP, INTR, RR COMPT, COURTESY
U27 : LAMP, INTR, I/P COMPT, COURTESY
U29 : LAMP, INTR I/P, COURTESY
U73 : ANTENNA, FIXED, RADIO
U81 : SPEAKER SYSTEM, RR, DUAL
VAN : ASSEMBLY PLANT, VAN NUYS, CA
VD6 : BUMPER PROVISIONS, FRT, ALUMINUM
VK3 : LICENSE PLATE, FRT MOUNTING PKG
V73 : ANTENNA, FIXED
WS6 : PERFORMANCE PACKAGE, SPECIAL
Unable to locate code WS8 in our database!
Unable to locate code W69 in our database!
YR1 : SEAT,FRT CUSTOM
YS1 : SEAT,RR CUST
YT1 : BUILD UP DR & QTR
YT9 : ???
Y06 : RING GEAR, 9.50 IN., SAGINAW, (S.P 0.)
Unable to locate code 55M in our database!
Unable to locate code 55P in our database!
Unable to locate code 59L in our database!
Unable to locate code 59Q in our database!
59U : PRIMARY COLOR, EXTERIOR ORANGE MET (92)
6XY : SPRING, COMPUTER SELECTED, FRONT, LEFT HAND
64C : TRIM COMBINATION, CLOTH, LT BEIGE (C) (92)
64I : INTERIOR TRIM, LIGHT BEIGE (I) (92)
649 : SEAT BELT COLOR, LIGHT BEIGE (9) (92)
Unable to locate code 7XX in our database!
8NM : SPRING, COMPUTER SELECTED, REAR, LEFT HAND
9NM : SPRING, COMPUTER SELECTED, REAR, RIGHT HAND

 

Beautiful S/E!!! I'm really diggin' the two-tone interior... I wish mine had the tan steering wheel, shifter t-handle, and dash pouch..... too bad about it's present condition.

 

I can't speak much about Camaros. I don't know them like I do the Firebirds. The only thing I can say is that the WS6 package does not necessarily include disc brakes. I know this for a fact. I know that all Forumla Firebird 350's are WS6 cars and someone I know has one and it is a WS6. My car is a WS6 and does not have rear disc brakes. As far the the V6 cars having WS6 or rear disc brakes goes, I believe that they can have rear disc brakes. But this does not mean they automatically become WS6's. I have never seen a V6 WS6.

 

WS6 packages really aren't worth anything price or performance wise to these cars. The cars themselves are not collectors and valued excessively because aof a certain package with the only except of the TTA.

Sorry but the average lower end aftermarket parts are a night and day difference from any stock GM performance package, not to mention the upper end aftermarket parts. The only thing worth a darn stock are 36mm and 24mm sway bar combos, quick ratio steering boxes, wonder bars,and PBR Calipers only (Not rotors, pads and lines associated with stock PBR brakes). Everything else on the suspension should be upgraded for a good handling performance car.

 

Depends on what year you're talking about. On the early third gen firebirds, like mine, WS6 had *mandatory* 4-wheel disc. This means that ALL WS6's had 4-wheel discs. No exceptions, no ifs ands or buts. They even had a special code for WS6 with rear drums, so it wouldn't be confused with WS6: it was WS7. I do agree with you that later on after 1986 or so, things changed, and maybe WS6 meant something else? I don't know.

Try looking up a few posts at my beige/gold car and you'll see one

GT

 

My friend 84tagoin81 has an 84 S/E w/ WS6 hes the second owner and the first was a lady w/ cancer so the car didnt get out much and it had no parts changed , the first thing that made us think it was was the huge figgin antisway bar, my S/E has the F41 suspension and its bigger then that.

 

Kizz, the sping thing, i wonder what front spring is in your car. I would think it would have to be something special, maybe not. Does your spring code (6XY) match anything else, ie: T/A, F41? Just curious. You would think they would need a special spring to keep the v-6 car down.

At this point, you might as well toss an eight in it, and drive it. You know what it is, can prove it accually exists, who cares if anyone believes it, or what they think. It's a good looking ride. Or maybe get a little weird with it, a 3.4 DOHC? Just a thought.

I know you like to keep original, but maybe at the point in that cars life, it's time to let your imagination run wild.

Kitt light and dash, forth gen everything else, truck headlights, painted interior plastic .....LOL Just kidding Bud

 

I think if I was ever going to do a motor swap of any kind, I'd go for a 3.4 just to try and keep the same overall look. Actually it's stored at a friend's house about an hour from here and I don't often get to see it lately, and I have no idea what's wrong mechanically speaking. could be something very minor. It hasn't run since september and I feel horrible about it. KITT? heh nice joke I've already seen too many rare cars go that route..

As far as 6XY/7XX, no idea. I don't have any other 84's around to compare it to but good question, might be interesting to find out.

 

I have never said that a V6 couldn't have the WS6 package. I said that I have never seen one. Which is true. Then again I have never seen a V6 thirdgen. Only 4 bangers and V8's. Mostly 305's.