Might as well do this also while I'm under there:

What is our stock starter gap for the 2.8? I need to know this so I don't burn the starter out again when I actually get the engine going again.... (soon... going to be soon!) The starter was replaced by the DPO and a good mechanic friend of mine and I don't think he got the gap right... there's like four or five shims in there and it seems to be too far away from the flywheel or something....

Also, could you tell me this in a fractional increment? I don't have feeler gauges and I don't plan on getting them for just this one use, but I do have a complete set of metric and standard allen wrenches (hex keys)....

 

When I removed the starteroff th eold 2.8, it had 2 shims on it. The 3.4 starter had none.

 

Well, I have not counted them, but I believe that there is at least three there that I can see. I have two spares, but I still need a number, and my useless repair manual doesn't even mention shims other than to replace them in the original order and placement as when removed...

 

each engine is gonna different, that's why it doesn't say you need exactly X amount of shims.

 

Whaen I replaced my starter back in July the instructions said to use a paper clip to check for proper gap. I decided that there wasn't enough room to fudge around with it and put it up in there with the original shim and every thing works fine.

 

Is there any grinding klanging noise when you crank it? If not don't wory about it.

 

No, I couldn't tell for myself, but when I took the car in for its NYS inspection (which it failed) the mech said that he could tell that the starter was being crowded or something like that. I have looked in about four places now and they don't give an average gap, and I am pretty sure that in excess of four or five shims is way too many... If only I had kept those installation istrucions I found in the car when I bought it...

 

Just checked my Helm’s manual, for a ’90 3.1L they are saying 0.5mm (0.020 inch) clearance. (Use a wire gage)

For a picture of how (where) to check the clearance (the black, round circle is the wire gage):

http://www.e-toolbox.com/application.../79240g03L.gif

 

Wow, that's a lot of shims. Do you know if they were there from the beginning? My 2.8 only has one shim... and I've always put it back when I changed the starters.

Feeler gauges are only a couple of bucks, by the way... unless you want ones made by Snap-On!

 

The shims look like they are pretty new, unless it's because of my (tiny) oil leak. And I already knew how to check the clearance, just not how much gap there should be... .020 is what I thought I saw in the installation instructions, but I wasn't sure.

 

Here's some more outta my '86 2.8 GM/Helm book...

Problem- High pitched whine during cranking (before engine fires), <i>but engine cranks and fires okay.</i> (they underlined that.) Cause: Distance too great between starter pinion and flywheel

Problem- High pitched "whine" after engine fires, as key is being released. Engine cranks and fires okay. This intermittant complaint is often diagnosed as "starter hang-in" or "solenoid weak." Cause: Distance too <i>small</i> (they underlined it) between starter pinion and flywheel. Flywheel runout contributes to the intermittant nature.

Two more not related to pinion distance, so I'll make them shorter:

Problem = loud "whoop" after engine fires but sounds as if starter is still engaged, cause is probably bad clutch

Problem=rumble, growl, or in sever cases a knock as the starter's coasting to a stop after starting motor, cause is a bent or unbalanced starter armature

And they also (for a 2.8) say the clearance should be 0.020" (.5mm)... just like ZZ's 3.1 manual does.

 

SO how do you get the starter gear to come out, and do the feeler gauge, without actually spinning everything?

 

Well, I guess I was right about the "WAY too many shims thing". Since I bought the car, it has always whined when the engine was being cranked, and I wasn't sure if that was a good thing or not (the only V6s I've had experience with are a couple of Chrysler V6's and 3.4's, never any 2.8). So should I remove one at a time until it stops whining?

 

Okay, while trying to start the engine today (had to wait for the damn jumpstart pack to charge) I decided to see exactly how many shims were under there and subtract one. Problem is, the starter has three shims that came with it on there, they are two thin ones that can be bent easily and one thick one that can't. I removed one of the thin ones and tried to rotate the engine, and the starter began to bind up on me. So I decide to put that one back and maybe go with the mech's recommendation of adding another shim. The only thing that rotated when I did that was the starter pinion. Should I leave things as they were or try to adjust the gap? The starter is one of those with the staggered bolt pattern, with the one closest to the oil pan being farther towards the front than the other one. I don't know the thickness of any of the shims and I have no way to find out. Right now I removed the starter and cleaned it up because it was covered in a thin film of oil and had some light gravel stuck in the oil and I cleaned it out and off and also to check the pinion. If I were to look straight at the pinion with the teeth pointed straight at me, are the teeth supposed to look like this: /[] ? All the teeth look like that and none appear to have actually been damaged, so I am not sure.

 

Shoot, I don't know. I wonder though... could that starter itself be messed up somehow, and whoever installed it had to add shims to compensate? Got any junkyards near you that would sell you a starter for cheap (not likely, even by me)... but maybe you could walk away with the original shim?

As to measuring thickness, here's something you could try if you don't have calipers or a micrometer... get a swing-out set of flat metal valve feeler gauges (like $5). Get an open-ended adjustable wrench, and tighten it down on one of the starter shims. Then start sliding the feeler gauges into the wrench's gap, next to the shim. Know what I mean? If no feeler gauge is thick enough, you could slide two or three out, and add up the numbers on 'em.

Dammit I can't explain anything worth a crap today, can I?

 

Okay, picture's worth etc...

 

I went out to NAPA last night and got a set of shims that totaled .120 in gap (.060, .040, .020), which was what I originally had on there (1 .080 and 2 .020 shims) and had to ADD them to what was on there, so now I have a total of .240 but I am probably going to end up taking out at least one or two of the .020 shims for a total of .20 altogether. I dodn't know much about what happened to the starter but when I examined it with the original shims in place, the center shaft of the starter was practically being kissed by the flexplate. I don't have any idea whatsoever how it was working before, but all I know now is that it AIN'T working. The front of the pinion seems to be working okay, but the rear end seems to be binding and that is what is keeping the flywheel from being rotated. I can tell because when I hit the key, all I get is a metallic clicking sound like the teeth are missing each other or something, and when I manually turn the crankshaft, I hear a loud CLICK as the pinion returns to its rest position. I don't get it and have given up until I can get a replacement set of installation instructions (had them but threw them out because I thought I didn't need them, and it's a Duralast brand, so I can go to AZ and get the info I need) so I can figure out how to fix this.

Oh, and I have a micrometer, but I have no idea how to use it.

 

Could they have given you the wrong starter?

Wow, Autozone's website sucks... but for an '85 Camaro 2.8, they show two Duralast's...

Gold-Duralast # DLG-9865S, 100% new, $15 core, $89.99 price
Duralast # DL6313MS, reman, $25 core, $44.49 price

Under the Duralast remanufactured, it says that shims may be needed for the approximate 1/8 inch clearance of starter nose. It doesn't say that under the Duralast Gold starter. I wonder if that means they ground some metal off of the rebuilt starter?

Do you still have your receipt? Do either of those part #s match? That .240's way above the 0.125 that even Autozone spec's...

Oh and here's a website I just found with Micrometer pictures: http://feh.eng.ohio-state.edu/Tutori...r/reading.html

 

I didn't buy and install it- the DPO did and he f***ed it up, so I get stuck fixing it. It's the second starter in your list (the label was still there-amazing!). And I still don't get how the front and back can be so out of line from each other even though the bolts cannot possibly move around in the starter holes.... And when they talk about the nose, do they mean the central shaft or what? I don't have the dust cover for the 700R4 (blame the damn DPO, not me-it's been gone) so I have no idea what they are talking about. I'll have to go out later and see if I can nab a copy of the installation instructions.

 

Okay, I checked the instructions and I know how to do this. I basically have to take something that is slightly bigger than 1/8" in diameter (I am using 5/32) and sandwich it in between the flywheel and the center shaft of the starter's armature. I want to do this in eight or more points on the flywheel so I am absolutely positive it will work. I have one problem: I want to align the starter properly with 16 equidistant points along the teeth of the flywheel, but I don't have any clue as to how many teeth there are on the flywheel so I can set the points a set distance apart. Or maybe just the diameter of the flywheel will do.