alright, got a head gasket set for my heads. Comes with obvious heads, intake, etc etc.

Now, it came with 12 tiny o-rings when I was cool, this is them. but it also came with 6 other things that are for the intake valves.

What are these, how do I replace them? Hell, how do I pull out these 12 tiny o-rings. I don't have the engine yet, nor have I ever rebuilt any heads. Closest I got was pulling my old s10 engine apart to see what crap was. I never did this part.

I plan on getting engine this coming weekend.

sounds like valve stem seals. when you pull the exhaust( i think) stems off, they gonna be there for oil control. When they go, that's when you get that puff of blue smoke outhte tail pipe until car burns off leaked oil on the pistons.

Don't attempt a rebuild yourself, Take the heads to a machine shop and have them do the rebuild (with a warranty of some sort). Rebuilding heads is pretty difficult if you don't have the right tools (valve spring depresser etc.). The shops here in texas usually only charge about a hundred bucks for a pair, If you supply the parts, maybe less. Call around, it's the best way to go.

swapping the seals is pretty simple. you need a compresser. there ought to be a section in your manual on swapping the seals.

I want to do these myself so I have the know how, plus another hundred bucks is that much I dont have

Heads will be off the engine as I will be doing some "clean-up" on them. I know I need a spring compressor that sears sells for 20 bux, or get the loaner from zone for a few days.

Heres a pic of the things in question.

The little ones are definetly valve stem seals. The ones you have are probably all cracked and some might even be gone already. If you can take the valves out...the rest is easy. Word of advise..putting the valve stem seals on should be the last thing you do before releasing the spring compressor. in other words...compress the spring, set it over the valve stem, then installe the seal...and realease the compressor. If you dont, they will roll out of their seat when you try to put the other pieces over top. The bigger seals are i believe umberella seals. They go under the large caps on top of your valve stems. The kit for my 400 came with them...but there werent any on my motor so i left them out. You'll see where they go/if you need them once you pull things apart. Good luck... not a bad job if you take your time and do it right. Dont get the valves or the spring/components mixed up either. Unless you're putting in no valve train stuff. Later.

Justin

The ones on the left are your valve stem seals. The small ones on the right are your fuel injector o-rings.

yep, ones on the left are the seals. Even said so on the bag that mine came in. The haynes manual tells you how to replace them. Looks simple enough once you take the head off.

the small o rings are not for your injectors they go ontop of the valve stem before the keeper is installed. Valve on the left is the intake on the right is exhaust in order
a=keepers
b=retainers
c=o ring seals
d=oil sheild
e=springs
f=spring dampers
g=valve stem oil sheild

Haven't done a valve job yourself lately, have you..

ghettocruiser hit it on the head. The itty bitty ones are the same POS valve stem seals that cause 90% of our cars to smoke on startup.. the larger ones are umbrella seals that seal to the valve stem and cover the valve guide boss, effectively replacing the valve stem oil shield. You can find how-tos on installing polyacrylate umbrella seals on the web. Google is your friend. Or search tech/general engine board.

I knew the ones on the right were the main seals. Damn them things are tiny. I know for a fact they arnt injector o-rings, I know them to well (plus it came with 6 of them too)

umbrella seals, got it. Will make woman seach net for me

brobert, what page is that your showing. I usually only look at books as last resort

Sounds like this should be a fun project

its page 2d-8. The book really shows you every step of the job. Doesnt look too hard.

thanks, will look when I get home. For code 32 also..

IF you are going to lap each valve to each cylinder, just taking apart the heads & putting into a big pile won't matter much.
If ya get someone else to disassemble the heads for ya, you are way ahead of the game.
You going to do a 3 angle valve job & also polish the backside & stem of each valve?
If ya find someone that wants to assemble heads for cheap, let them do so.
PS Check the spring pressure of each spring, shim until equal.

Actually they are not Umbrella seals . Umbrella seals float with the valve. Umbrella seals look like an Umbrella and ride up and down on the valve stem.

The seals there are called POSITIVE style Valve seals.

Brobert nailed it when he said to install the small seals after! the retainers are on and the spring is compressed , then the stem locks/keepers go on.

If you install the little o rings before you compress the spring the retainer will simply push it out of the grove and in most cases tear it in half.


The positive seals go on the Intake and are simply pushed on / pryed off.

Brobert nailed it when he said to install the small seals after! the retainers are on and the spring is compressed , then the stem locks/keepers go on.


Damn i got something correct!? damn that feels good:lala:

ok, checked book. Marked page.

All this order of how to put this crap in is confusing me.

Plan on polishing back side of valves
if I can find place to do 3angle decent price, its done.
install new springs
install new retainers
If I get new retainers do I need new keepers also? If so, how many?

I'm lost as to where these postive seals go, they arent in this book.

How do the regular seals come out? Tiny screw driver? I always thought they went in the head, do they go on the valve?

**** I wish I would have kept my s10 heads to tear up

i didnt use the little o-ring gaskets for the exhaust valves. i went out and got umbrella seals for those, like the intake seals. they work better and seal better. they arent much either.

Hey Dale, I still have the 2.8 heds lying around doing nothing

THAT's why I said go to a machine shop. Not only that, they'll set you up with a 3 angle valve job too if you ask (usually not much extra). Whether you have the money or not, it PAYS to do things properly. NEVER assume that the gaskets will hold without machine work....Trust me, we re-do plenty of half as*ers head jobs. Do it right the first time, Take no chances, remember, this is your baby. If you break your arm, you don't set the bone yourself, you take it to an expert, lol. I can understand you want the experience, it's nice to have, but don't guinea pig your own ride. I've done the job before, not as easy as it sounds, but if you're determined to do it yourself, at LEAST get the heads milled!!!!!

I understand fbodtreck, but they wont port them for "discount". Wish is the whole reason I'm taking them apart. Plus I plan on adding 1.6 rockers, and need new springs for that.

This thread talked about them a few weeks back, 614 posted some pics.

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...ht=valve+seals

Brobert nailed it when he said to install the small seals after! the retainers are on and the spring is compressed , then the stem locks/keepers go on.


Damn i got something correct!? damn that feels good


Not to burst your bubble...but actually ghettocruiser got it right


Good call..I forgot what they were and umbrella seal is the first term that popped into my head...

Justin

i just posted what three manuals i have said to do on doing heads.

At this point an option may be to find a very good machinist & ask his price.
Pride be damned.
3 angle valve jobs ain't that much more. It's very common machining cost.
The valves get polished by yourself in drill press with emery cloth.
The valves then get an angle cut on edge before insertion into head, too.

ok, after looking at my fancy helms manual (i knew I bought it for a reason) this doesnt look that bad. I dont see what the "seals" at the top of the valve stem actually seal though? Can anyone tell me this one?

Thanks to gumbys searching, I like that idea 614 posted about putting them one seals on all, rather then just some. Makes sense, and for 20 bux, you think gm would do it.

Now I will try and call/find a machine shop and ask cost on checking head surface, and about 3-5 angle valve jobs. Then a minor DIY port job on them.

Some advice from an old dude of 36 Dale- call around and find out prices on valve jobs and then ask what it includes-

Most machine shops if not all charge AERA (American Engine Rebuilders Association) flat rates on things like valve jobs. Here is my experience- had a set of 350 heads done a few years back-

I was quoted $110 to do a three angle valve job on them.

Another shop quoted me $155. I went with Mr. $110 shop.

They did in fact charge me $110 for the actual valve job.

And another $20 for hot tanking and disassembly

And another $25 to magnetic inspect (magnuflux) them for cracks.

And another $31.20 to replace the worn valve springs with new stock springs that I didn't want because I was installing COMP springs to match the cam I used. They are still in my tool box and destined for the trash 'cuz I am not ever going to use them.

The $155 shop was giving me the out- the- door price on everything

This is what I would do Dale- take the heads, have them hot tanked and magnetic inspected- pull all the valves and springs out first. Then take them home, do all the port work on them. THEN take them for the valve job- why in this order? Well, you don't want to mess up one of the newly cut valve seats with your porting by accident and have to have the head fixed by the machine shop again.

Eric

I was just thinking what about valve guides / inserts??? Anyone replace them in the 6 yet??? I know its common for the V8 guys to get new guides installed. But sometimes it can get screwed up if not done right. I know Buick heads get ruined often from shop replacing guides and treating them like Chevy heads.

valve guides are a pressed sleeve that the valve rides in. Usually a metal like used in the throwout bearing in a stick.

For valve guides, I've heard of bronze & steelbeing used, w/bronze for street engines & steelfor race.

Here's what the service manual says about the valaves & Guides :

NOTICE: Excessive valave stem to bore clearance will cause high oil consumption and may cause valve breakage. Insufficient clearance will result in noise & sticky functioning of the valve& disturb engine smoothness.
VALVE GUIDES:
Valves w/oversize stems are available in .089, .394 & .775mm over sizes. To ream the valve guide bores for oversizes use (special) tool number........ respectively.

There are procedures listed to check clearances, but nothing on actually replacing one, just over boring w/reamer.

Time to

Valve stem assembly, & hydraulic lifter cut away

thanks for prices eric, that was full labor on them too huh...

I was thinking pull apart, bag n mark everthing, take to shop and have them check the bottom, and 3 angle the valves. Clean them of the debris.

Come home, re-install everything, plus extra exhaust seal.

Gumby, from what I read, the guides last a while, usually brass, and are pressed in-out.

Project, thats some of the same views in my helms book. Best views so far. That and a few pictures I have saved of 614's, and dowards projects.


DOES ANYONE KNOW WHAT THE TOP "SEAL" REALLY SEALS? it makes NO sense to me at all!!

And why is it just the exhaust that has the shield and from what?

Yes! The top o-ring provides a seal between the retainer and the valve stem. Oil that is fed through the pushrod, into the rocker and ball area drips down on top the retainer and can leak down the valve stem, giving the vs seal more work to do.

welcome to tgo dude

ok, that makes sense. Didn't look at it that way, thanks for letting me know gordsipko

So the retainer sits ontop of the o-ring?

I'm just gonna have to rip one apart to look at it

first quote!!

So far, just one shop..
15 bux to check deck.
105 bux to 3angle the intake valves only, and tank clean.

This does NOT include them pulling the valves out, or putting them in. Think I will call another shop.

2nd quote..

He wont touch the head unless he takes it apart. He does nothing but 3angle valve jobs on EVERY head he touches unless specifically told otherwise. Takes apart, cleans, etc etc.

125 plus seals (I already got them).

Also says he offers crane springs/retainers at his cost when hes working on the heads

So hes getting me a price on them too. Only thing it wont have is a port job

You found the perfect solution.

here goes the 3.4 version of the jahova witness

That's good!

So that's $125 per head? That seems about correct. Still, even if you hae to wait a while to come up with the cash, it's the way to go.

I'd still go ahead and do some mild cleanup- leave the valves in, use some sanding rolls and take the sharp edges off the chambers, you can still rent the tool from Autozone and remove one valve at a time and do some port work- use a vaccum to suck out the dust, and use brake-kleen to flush afterwords. Gasket match everything.

Eric

That better be $125 for both heads, or is he providing free K Y.

125 for both.

I was debating on renting that tool, poping them out one at a time, doing some work, then putting together, and taking to him.

That way I get my porting, some experience, and some proper rebuilding work.

Oh, my bad- yeah, $125 for the pair is great!

Eric