I am having a serious problem. Ever since I changed my timing chain the car has run like crap it stalls miss fires and just runs like garbage(a friggen 3cyl. geo can beat it) When I changed the timing chain I got it to TDC took the old chain and cam gear off, I didn't move a thing, Then put the new stuff on. Well it I couldn't even start it. It was as if I had the dist 180* out exhaust was shooting outta the leaks in my Vacume lines and outta the TB. Well I pulled the dist and turned it 180* and put it back in. The car was hard to start and when it started it sounded weird like there was a big bass string in my exhaust. Well I then I decided to rip it back apart and look at the Timing chain again. turned out the cam gear was about 180* off so I turned it so the marks were lined up. And no matter where I put the dist. It still runs like garbage.. any Ideas. I will put some pics on how it was and where I set it.
This is the way I set it:



This is the way it was set:

 

Don't blame the poor car.. everything would probably be fine if you'd realized the simple fact that the only way for the dist to be so far off, having not removed it, was for the cam to be just as far off. If you'd set the timing according to specification in the first place, lining up the notches instead of doing it on the fly and hoping it worked, everything would have been fine. We've all had our share of learning experiences.

Cam timing is set now.. distributor timing is probably still off. As I recall our valvetrain won't interfere with the pistons, so your valves should be okay. What are you setting your base timing to, and you are setting that base timing with the EST disconnected, right?

 

Also, I don't know if you replaced the cam gear, but if you got an aftermarket one, it might have multiple timing "keys"...I know the cloyes one does, and you'd probably have trouble getting it to run right if you retarded or advanced the cam timing.

 

The timing marks should be like the top picture. The notch in the crank is not what you go by, their is a dot on the bottom gear, just like the top. I have seen that confusion before.

Timing is advised to be checked after installing new chain. My car is to be set at 10deg, with the est unplugged, not sure on yours.

I've done this 3 times so far on different 6/60's, and prob fixing to do another one in next few weeks. Not hard, just take your time.

Smurf, when did you become a mod?

 

I know, the world is coming to an end
Just kidding

 

Couple days ago

And the world isn't coming to an end yet.. as long as the bickering stops... otherwise, maybe.

 

I do have to say I know how he feel's every time I see my 89 in the garage I want to take a giant wrecking ball and have it smashed.

Then I sit in it and think about how much I really like that stupid car even if it has been a total POS for the month I have had it!

I mean I got to drive it a whole 15 days after I got it. Hopeful it will be good as new soon,

I miss driving the toy around and seeing the look's it get's, the car reminds me of what my Fiero's have always been to me(90MPH go carts) I feel like a little High school kid again when I drive it hheheeh

Donnie H

89 Bird with a broken wing (sort)

 

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I was reading another post and noticed that TechSmurf was warning people not to sell stuff in the forums and that the thread was closed. Then I noticed it said moderator under his name and I thought "that wasn't there before... was it?"

 

Okay, I have to ask this one thing:

I thought that our combustion chambers in the 60* were squish or wedge type chambers, which would mean that the valves may be partly exposed to damage if the cam ever jumps time or is not set properly when the chain is replaced. That don't make sense to me, and the thing that bothers me is that I think my 2.8 may have jumped time! I have yet to check my suspicion though, as I can't get the balancer off and there is one water pump long bolt that I can't get out at the moment. Would someone please clarify this for me so I don't go where I don't have to go? (probably should as the chain most likely needs to go...)

 

I Could very well be wrong, but I believe that our car's are not interference motor's, that’s mostly cars such as Homda/nissan/Mazda/ most of the imports

But I believe there is a few Domestics that will smash the valves as well (some sunbirds will from what I have read) correct me now guys if I am wrong in saying they are not?


Donnie H.

 

On the 2.8 I just helped pull out of my gf's bro's camaro, even with the rod having snapped and the piston flying quite happily into the head, the valves are unscathed... can't say the same for the plug, tho. I stand by my belief that these are non-interference motors.. however, if it would make you feel better, when I get the trashed 2.8 over here, I'll disconnect the timing chain, clay up a piston, and spin it with the exhaust and intake valves at max lift just to be sure. I'd kinda like to know for certain myself what the clearances are if I decide to put higher ratio rockers on the heads before I swap 'em in.

 

Yes, that would help a bunch. I ain't exactly sure what is going on in there but I do know that something solid is in the way...

 

The heart-shaped combustion chambers are on the front wheel drive 2.8's with MPFI and aluminum heads. Our combustion chambers are circular.

I'd say the best fix for this timing problem is:

A. Valve timing- Yes, the timing marks on the cam gear and crank gear should both be in alignment with each other. I don't know how much I agree with "both marks should point up" as opposed to "cam mark straight down, crank mark straight up". That's just because as soon as you turn the crank ONE FULL CIRCLE, the cam gear's dot will be pointing straight down. So the only part that really matters is that (A) the crank gear's dot points straight up, and (B) the cam gear's dot is in exact vertical alignment with the crank gear's dot. I used a steel ruler just to make sure.

B. Ignition timing- Scrap everything that you've got so far.

B1, Pull the dist. Make sure the plug wires around the cap, clockwise, are in order- 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. The plug wire to the #1 cyl can be in any position on the distributor cap that you want it to be, as long as after #1, the sequence is 2-3-4-5-6. (I bet I just panicked half of you- "The #1 plug wire can be anywhere?" Trust me!)

B2, Turn the crankshaft clockwise so the #1 cylinder (front passenger side, NOT front driver's side) is at TDC of compression. There are two TopDeadCenter positions; one is TDC of compression stroke, one is TDC of exhaust stroke. With the dist cap off and car off and engine cold, put your finger over the #1 plug hole (remove the spark plug) to create a firm seal, and turn the crank clockwise. Eventually you'll feel air pressure trying to push your finger out of the hole. That means you've got the compression stroke. Now take a Phillips' head screwdriver and put it into the spark plug hole, being careful to not tilt the screwdriver inside the plug hole (you don't want to scratch the cylinder walls). S-l-o-w-l-y turn the crank until the screwdriver doesn't rise anymore. This is TDC of #1.

B3, ** Note for B2: You could also push a cotton rag (not paper towel) into the #1 plug hole. When the rag blows out, you know you've got the compression stroke.

B4. Verify that your harmonic balancer's outer ring hasn't slipped due to deterioration of the rubber isolation (middle) ring. Look at the timing indicator to the driver's side of the crank pulley. Find the Zero mark- the mark on the balancer should be lined up with this. If the balancer mark isn't in alignment, make a new mark on the balancer with a scratch awl that lines up with the Zero mark; this will indicate the "real" position of TDC. Then start saving $50 to replace your balancer with a new one from GM.

B5. Pick the distributor up off the floor. Slip the dist cap onto it; you don't need to bolt it down, just make sure the cap firmly seats onto the dist, and isn't tilted. Find your #1 terminal on the cap. Make a mark on the outside of the distributor body with white-out that lines up with the #1 cap terminal. Remove the dist cap.

B6. Seat the dist into the motor. Make sure you engage the hex shaft inside the motor- this is the oil pump drive shaft. If you need to, spin the rotor a bit left/right so the dist gear engages the pump driveshaft.

B7. Find the mark you made on the dist housing. Spin the distributor body so you move the mark - make the mark point to the rotor.

B8. ** TIP for B7: The wires for the ignition module are short. Try to drop the dist in so that the ignition module wires will reach the ignition module. This usually means the ignition module's connectors (on the dist) point towards the firewall.

B9. If you tighten the distributor down now, you've set the timing to zero degrees advanced (BTDC or BTC). The engine might not run for you to put your timing light on it. If the engine doesn't run, loosen the dist hold-down bolt, and turn the distributor body slightly COUNTER-CLOCKWISE. This puts the rotor between the #1 and #2 terminals on the dist cap- but closer to the #1 terminal. And this is obvious, because you want ignition timing to fire BEFORE #1 TDC.

B10. ** Explanation for B9: Remember that we've put the #1 cylinder AT TDC! By spinning the dist so the rotor points between 1 and 2 terminals, you've basically simulated that "spark has already fired since the #1 cylinder is already at TDC". I hope that makes sense. Remember we've gone from "scratch" so the only thing we're sure of so far is that the #1 cylinder is at TDC/compression stroke. So we've got to base the ignition timing off of that one fact. NOTE that if you tried to start the engine and it doesn't run, the rotor could be pointing anywhere under the cap. That's okay. Just loosen the hold-down bolt, turn the cap a bit counterclockwise (remember the dist is moving along with the pistons), tighten the hold-down bolt, and try again. Don't have a buddy try to spin the dist counter-clockwise as you start the car; I got a shock so bad it threw me backwards and I saw "black".

B11. The car should start now. Put your timing light on it, and time the motor to 10 degrees BTC. Remember to use the new mark (if you made one) on the balancer. Remember to disconnect the EST timing connector with the engine off before setting timing. Remember to tighten the dist hold-down bolt when you're done setting timing, and to reconnect the EST connector after you turn the engine off.

Voila, done! It might seem overwhelming but I don't have pictures to work with, so I had to explain my head off! Print it out, go thru it a few times before you start. Make a diagram of engine to spark-plug-wires to dist-cap first, too. Remember #1 is the frontmost passenger side cylinder.

 

Hey TomP, is it possible for you to get an actual CLEAR pic of the two timing marks, the ones that are actually on the cam and crank, or anybody for that matter? Haynes sucks!

 

I'll look thru my pictures also. However, the marks on each mfg timing chain are going to be different.

Some are just lines, some are dots, some are squares, some are triangles. I do know that the notch in the crank is NOT the same as the timing mark.

Tommorow, I can get a pic of the gears off the engine if thats ok.

 

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I don't recall saying "gears". Any fool who has worked on an engine before can see the marks on the timing gears (I have done a timing check on a B&S engine before.. so easy!). I'm talking about the marks on the shafts themselves...

 

As I recall, there are no marks on the crank or cam shafts. They have keyways for the gears to slide on and hold them in place.

 

Thank you for that point. Now I know what to look for and what to do.

 

I posted the gears as said above, no marks on the crank or cam.

On the crank, you have a key notch.
On the cam, you have a tab.

Any "fool" should beable to see these.

 

There are marks on the gears. On mine there is a little inverted dot on both of them.
like here on the crank gear:

 

Oh, and what and where is the EST.

 

(E)lectronic (S)park (T)iming module is inside the distributor, or a secondary function of it, not sure exactly how to describe it.

And I read someone on here to say that there are multiple keys on some timing chains. That would really mess me up... 87, where did yours come from and what brand is it? Anyone have good experience with the el-cheapo AutoZone ones? That is where I plan to get mine.

 

cheap timing chains only have one keyway. no problem at all for someone not used to replacing it.

 

Far as I know, cloyes is the only one with multipule key ways to set it at 2 advance, 2 retard, or dead center.

Your 20-30 bux ones from local parts stores dont have this option.

 

The EST is what the computer uses to control spark advance. By disconnecting the EST connector, the engine runs on "base timing". That's what you set with a computer-controlled car, the "base timing".

If you popped a timing light on the car "as-is", you'd see your timing would be way off the scale- the computer is adjusting the timing for a smooth idle.

EST connector is tucked into the wire loom on the passenger side, near the top of the hood/cowl. It's a tan wire with a black stripe, and it's got a single-pin connector that you unplug. That's the EST bypass connector. Disconnect it with the engine off. When you start the motor, you'll get a service engine soon light- I believe the code is 32?- but that's normal. The computer's telling you the EST is broken, but of course, you unplugged it!

After you set the base timing to 10 degrees, turn the motor off, and plug the EST wire back together.

Remember that you'll have the error code 32 stored in the computer. Next time you get an SES light, say, for MAF sensor (code 34), you might think "oh crap, I've got two codes- 32 AND 34!" Just remember that 32 was set when you did the timing.

You could also clear the computer out after you're done setting the timing- disconnect the negative battery terminal for a little bit, then reconnect the negative. (You'll also lose any radio presets.) Then go for a drive, at highway speeds, 1/2 hour AWAY from your house. That way it takes you a half hour to get back home, and at highway speeds, an hour's worth of driving will help your computer to re-learn the engine.

If you don't go thru the engine re-learn procedure, your car will take forever to re-learn itself (by driving normally, in-town, short trips), and until it re-learns itself, your car will run like garbage!

 

my est wire is thick and red

 

That's not your EST wire, but offhand I couldn't tell you what it is. I've seen it before though.. definitely not EST

 

anyone know what it is then?
**** i've been setting my timing wrong for awhile now! lmfao...
I'll have to go look for that brown wire now.

 

Pic I dug up of where it should be and what it should look like =)

 

LOL, thats not where mine is, but thats what the plug looks like. Light brown with black stripe.

Mines laying down infront of the blower motor.

 

TomP: I'm not sure what the EST code is either, but if memory serves me correct, then it is 42.

As for that other wire that looks like the EST wire... there's a fusible link for the under-hood light that looks like it could be the EST connector. But of course it is not because it has a fuse inside the connector.

 

no it doesnt! Its a thick red wire with a black pull apart plug. I dont even have a under hood light.

 

Strange...

 

Found it.. I was practically ripping the harness casing to pieces and with a bottle of windex cleaning every wire with a connector just to find it... I found a few thick red wires a black with white stripe on it. Oh well... I have one problem I don't have a timing light and can't afford one right now, how bad of an Idea would it be to try to do it by ear. I could get it close.

 

You can get the timing REAL close based on how the engine reacts to acceleration and deceleration when done. If you have a shop or someone with a timing light that you are friendly with, maybe you can have the timing double-checked for you cheap.

 

Get this.. I called a local garage and asked how much they would want to time my car.. well they asked year make model and engine size.. I told them 1987 Chevy Camaro 2.8 MPFI, they guy out me on hold for a few min and says "You can't put that in time, its automatically done by the computer" I tried over and over again to tell the guy he was wrong. about 5 min of me trying to convince him, he said fine bring it over and he'll put it in time if there is even any timing marks or dist. for $15. They guy wouldn't listen and he still doesn't believe me.

 

Uhm.. I wouldn't *let* anyone like that work on my car. As soon as they prove that they're morons, politely decline to do business with them in the future and find somewhere else.

 

thats like the shop that told me all 60* v6 gms have non adjustable valves. Theirs NO WAY you can adjust them.

 

The only reason I called them is because my Dad knows the guy and he might inspect my car, and I have some ify things on the car.

 

Some of the more experienced guys here (can't remember who) actually recommend timing by ear if you are unsure of the position of the timing marks and such.

 

Ok... I unhooked the EST and got it timed. I have power back but it will sputter and misfire from time to time but not as often as before. I just put a Accell Performance coil in with old generic plug wires and single platnum bosch plugs, I also have a leak in one of my valve seals I am thinking because of the cruddy wires and the leak could have something to do with this. Maybe the plug is covered with oil... I haven't really run the car this winter.

 

Wait until dark. IF there is a underhood lamp, remove the bulb.
Start engine.
Look at the engine in the dark.
Any electrical shorts will be shown, instantly. Streaks of lightening will be present.
Sounds like you may need a good tune up in end, but try the dark open hood trick (see the wire shorting problem) & probably the new spark plug wires & ya good to go faster.
I also like Accel stuff. I run the Accel coil, Accel 8.8 plug wires.
Timing by ear is simple. In end, your engine should sound at a smooth, stable, "slow" idle. Try twisting the distributor (after the engine is warmed up) to listen how RPMS respond. Your idle should be about 600-700RPM at idle, in gear (like at a stop sign/light). If AC optioned, real test is to turn on AC & see how engine responds. If idle "Picks up, slightly" ya got timing nailed. GO for drive up a long steep incline, and listen for pings. If none, your done.
Sometimes "pings" can be caused by poor gas and also wrong "heat range" of the spark plug.
In my 3.4 swap, I discovered I had "ping". My solution was installing correct specified 3.4 plugs from Bosch. I bought 3.4 used engine & reused the old plugs which were spec'd for a 2.8 engine causing the "ping".
Another solution may be a complete distributor rebuild, too. Do a search for my thread about that topic. Ya can't go wrong rebuilding a distributor that hasn't been, for close to 20 years of use. Benefits are better performance, smoother idle, better gas milage, longer engine life & lower emissions.

 

The thick red wire with black connector, I believe, is for the HVAC system- blower motor, maybe? It's been a while since I had to play with that one- but it's definately not the EST bypass, unless someone rewired the car.

Ah- one concrete way to find out- car off, disconnect that red wire with black connector. Start the car up- the idle SHOULD be rough, and the service engine soon light SHOULD come on. If those both don't happen, it's not the EST bypass connector.

 

LOL your right Tom its the HVAC system.

No wonder when i unplugged it i could spin the dist back and forth with no effect on the engine

btw i did it correctly now.