I have a 1988 Firebird with a 2.8 5spd. Mainly stock. Runs great though. I'm putting flowmasters on it soon. I think the thing goes pretty well and does hold up as a great driver car but yet has the performance when i want it. It pulls sideways with no problem too What do you guys think of them? You think they get better gas milage then the LS1? Also I was wondering, are the birds lighter then the camaros? I like the firebirds, nicer int. then the thirdgen camaro. Also better aerodynamics

br()bert need not answer

From what I've read, a properly tuned 2.8 is a good engine. And that's the key. My 2.8 was DOA, so I'll jsut go ahead and shut up now.

I love the 60 degree mills.. but I'm becoming heavily biased against small journal 2.8s.. the 88 isn't cursed with them, though

Better milage than an LS1? Probably not.. milage is linked to engine efficiency more than most factors.. and stock 2.8s aren't the most efficient mills out there. If an LS1 driver doesn't keep his foot out of it though.. heh.. what milage.

Of course, the fact that we've got a 3.42 with either a .7 (A4) or .76 (M5) vs the LS1s .5 (M6) + 3.42 (in the WS/6 and Camaro SS) doesn't help.

That's ok... just scored a V8 T5, .63 5th gear, so that'll help push the V6 over 30 mpg.

Lemme know how that swap goes, Doward.. I'm in the market for something that can take abuse too.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Project: 85 2.8 bird
[B]br()bert need not answer

LMFAO!! Ill be nice


Better gas miles then an ls1? I dont think so tim.

And what Tech said about the older 2.8's. Just look at mine, its just a pos! Seems other members with near the same year 2.8 have alot of problems also. Although mine has gone through 2 blown head gaskets so far.


I agree with you on liking the firebirds better then the camaro's

Oh and stop driving on oil slicks

[QUOTE]Originally posted by br()bert
[B]Actually, I get 26.3 mpg as it is, with a 3.1/5 spd, and my foot constantly in the floor. That's around town driving - I don't do enough interstate traveling to increase the mileage (spinning 3k @ 80+ mph eats gas quicker, so I'm still 26.3 mpg )

LS1 gets 19 mpg around town. On the hiway, where it can stretch it's .5 overdrive, it gets 28. I know I could match that with a steady 65-70 mph.

Then consider with the .63 on this V8 T5 I've got... I'll go from spinning 2550 rpm @ 75mph, to about 2150 rpm - I'll crack 30 mpg, I'm sure.

I get about 21 mpg, on my 2.8.. when I first got it, before I replaced the O2 and MAF it wasn't even getting 15. It was horrible.

I drive it hard, though. Harder than I drive an 8.. I have a problem. The smaller the engine, the more I hammer on it.

My Caprice with a 305 got about 20 mpg, and my Z28 before that with a 383 it was 16-20. 16 if it was sunny and dry out, 20 the rest of the time.

Doward, you're not on a stock setup either.. your efficiency is probably obnoxious compared to a stock 2.8

The exhaust is really the only difference.. I mean, a mild cam, and barely ported/polished heads won't make THAT big of a difference.

But hey, city driving, 19 vs 26.

Yeah true, but these things get aroudn pretty good and with the 5 spd. I think they could keep up to a 305 carb stock. My bird has some good power and it is mostly stock. The car is also lighter and handles better then the 8s do.

.

I own both a 2.8 and an LS1 so I can say from experience, they get about the same mileage stock v. stock around town. On the highway the best I've managed with the 2.8 ever was 29, best with the LS1 was about 27.

In my routine suburban driving, I now average 20-21 with the V6, but she's not running very well these days (I think due to an exhaust leak at the pass manifold due to sheared off stud poluting the O2 readings). My T/A is fairly well modded with 386 to the wheels, 4.10 gears and gets around 22mpg.

Damn dude, what's with all the crap lately?

ANYway, the V6's won't have better gas mileage than a V8 because it's a smaller motor trying to push a car that's still heavy as hell- no matter what motor is in it. Since my emergency-major-tuneup-to-pass-emissions, I've been knocking back 20 mpg, and I'm thrilled with it! Then again, I also have 269,000 miles on my original 2.8 with it's original head gaskets- and I don't baby the motor, either.

Couple things -

Bro()bert, you're absolutely right. Engine size has NOTHING to do with handleing.

Weight, distribution of that weight, center of gravity, all of those have things in common with 'handling'

You realize that the V6 a) weighs less, b) sits further back, and c) has a closer-to-50/50-weight distribution over the V8, right?

That's why the 2.8 will hand a 350 it's *** in the twisties, given the same suspension.

Tom, what do you mean heavy as hell? My 3.1/T5 propels my 2950lbs '88 Camaro SC nicely.

It's you guys with the automatics, and power everything that have the lard asses!

What crap? Someone brought up a subject and i posted a reply like everyone else does. Motor size has nothing to do with getting the car to handle.



Also something TOM P said about the original head gaskets. Seems like once on goes on these motors they are never the same, thats something alot of people told me when mine went and it didnt really think about it untill my motor wasnt the same

Blow a head gasket, you've got to shave the heads/block, and use a copper spacer.

That V8 "It's better than all of you" high-horse you've been on ever since you bought that L98 and neutered it with a carb setup. I tried to warn you to calm down, but no, I'm just a power-tripping mod. Obviously I'm the only one who's noticed this

Weight distribution has alot to do with getting a car to handle. Easiest way to center up the CG on these cars is with a small motor up front (see V6) ... hey, and you lose 70+ lbs in the process.. sweet deal

dont forget though alot of the v8s had different spring rates, shocks and sway bars, and wider tires. so if were talking stock from the factory af if it was 1987 right now, and we were comparing a floor model iroc to a 3.1 rs......

but lets say you had a 2.8 making 200hp and with all the z28/iroc suspension in.... then yes.

To me, 2950 pounds seems heavy, don't it? I'd rather have a V8 pushing that than a V6. (And yes, obviously, overall, a V8 car will weigh more than a V6 car.) But it's still a heavy car compared to a Honda Civic.

Did the topic change? I thought we were talking about gas mileage.

You're right, that does sound familiar. Is a sharp turn the same as a tight turn? Because there was this old message that I remembered... https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...20#post1704398

Nice catch Tom..

an Ellis Juan weighs about 30lbs more than the 3800, but costs about $3k more also. Depends on on your pockets/connections.

But back to gas milage, just keep it properly tuned & correct pressure in tires.

Mm.. yes. Tire pressure. *very* important. Once read something that said 4 psi of underinflation could account for a 2 mpg drop in fuel economy. Very important to keep track of for gas milage, if not for the accelerated tire wear

woohoo someone knows how to use the search button.

To a point i was right in my old post but once you start doing susp work the v8 cars leave the v6's behind. See v8's make this thing called tq! V6's dont make much of this. Not even that dude with the turbo 3.4. tq moves a car. Susp work and tq will always win in a road race.

And also ive never kept it a secret that i hate the crappy v6's since i bought my car. Too many problems involved with them.

Its funny that you guys with the v6s can say whatever you want about the v8 guys but when someone says something back you whine like a bunch of kids in a sandbox.


Like i said before and ill say it again, I did not come in here and talk down to anyone, I replied to a comment someone else made.
I wasnt rude and i didnt make childish comments related to stupid video games like some others did. If you have a problem with someone defending a v8 then maybe you shouldnt bring it up at all.

Sorry dp, aol sucks.

Br()bert, when you get your 350 in, and I get the turbo set, would you be interested in a couple races, to simply end the v6 vs v8 debate?

Drag race, and a road race, perhaps?

And um...

Turbos equal torque. Torque equals fun.

(that's a quote from a guy that knows a hellofalot more than any of us here )

Doward once i get the carb tuned and everything set ill post an HONEST time slip. Im not downing anyone on here and im not saying the chevy v8 is the best motor ever made. Its just that as soon as i say anything thats not the normal "woohoo my v6 is great" People get offended. Road race times will be a problem because the track near me does 1/4 mile only. I know of a road race track but it sucks! I drove once to it. Almost a 2 hour drive. What a waiste!

Also i dont think there is a debate. Look at the quick 8. You wont find many if any v6's.

Road racing is another story. Once i saw a car this guy MADE! It even had some duct tape on the front. Everyone was looking at it like he was nuts , that is untill he got the quickest time on the road race track. It was like a go cart on crack.

I don't recall making threats. I don't see myself making threats.

I never said you were breaking rules.. you're just generally annoying people. Being a nuciance isn't forbidden by the rules, but it is generally discouraged by society, and it is something that will result in action when it goes on indefinitely.

EDIT --- also, I'm not looking to ban you br()bert, I'd really rather not have it come to that. I just want to see you acting like a nice person again.

I would agree that sometimes i can go a little to far like calling lee a retard for example.
But im not here like the typical v8 guy laughing at all of you. Im not calling anyone stupid for what they do to their car or anything like that. Its just that when i make a comment people get bent outa shape. All i do is discuss a comment someone else made.

Maybe the fantasy comment was a little mean now that i reread it.

Seriously im not here to argue or be an ***. Just dont take any comments to heart, this site is 50% tech and 50% opinions.

Even after i do the motor swap i'll still post here. This is the place i started posting when i joined this site three user names ago.

MOST of the v6 guys get along, and this is usually a arguement free spot on this site. Maybe ill just bite my toungue more often.

Now that's the brobert I remember.

2950??? Isn't factory weight something like 3500? Did you lose your back hatch? (That hatch is damn heavy, try lifting it without the shocks.)

On the subject of fuel efficiency and tire pressures... I had one of those regular tire pressure gauges, you know... the stick kind. It stopped working all of a sudden. I found this old-school tire pressure gauge with the dial and the pressure release, now that's a real gauge. It should last forever.

2950 sounds about right for a lightened stripper V6. 4th gens are heavier than 3rd gens, and my '01 has a 3405 raceweigh (no jack/spare, rear seat, front swaybar, 1/2 tank). My '89 V6 was closer to 3200lbs (loaded, auto).

I will have to double check when I get a chance. Mine should still weigh what it says on the sticker.

You guys can talk gas mileage all you want I had an 82 with the 2.8 and a Th200 and it was the worest powered and worest gas mileaged car I ever owned. I don't think it was the engine or more the trans. I had a friend that had a bird with the same engine and computer controlled carb with a manual and it was a totally different car.

I also had a 92 with a 3.1 and a 5spd and was very happy with it great mileage and quick used to spank most v8 maro's with automatic. Would have liked to see what a supercharger would have done to it

Except for one problem.. the number on the sticker is the gross vehicle weight *rating*.. the maximum loaded weight of the car with driver, passengers, gas, stereo equipment, etc...

Dont have a 2.8, but...


Great motor. Ran like a top since day one. Only problems were:

-Timing chain (An inevibility at 100k+ miles.)
-Radiator (Again, inveitable given that crap GM throws in on the assembly line.)
-Rear main oil seal (One piece seal. Slow leak. Would be easy to fix, but im lazy.)
-Clutch (Yet another guaranteed deal. Replaced it with a Cumberland and it feels brand new.)

It doesnt feel at all underpowered with judicial use of the 5 speed tranny. (AKA, flog on it.) I have no problems burning up **** with my car in stock form.

Ive put 30k miles on it since ive had it, and havent developed any MAJOR problems. It starts up on the first crank every morning. Its a trouper.

I see... is curb weight the actual weight of it then or what?

I've got this just-about-junked Firebird with the 2.8 in it, neat little motor - I've had some time around it's little-bigger brother, the LHO, not a bad little motor if I may say so. However, I need (yeah, I keep saying it, I just have to go DO it) to do a tune-up or something, it seems anemic and has almost no low-end at all. Then again, I'm used to the L98...

Well since we're all being friendly I'm not trying to start anything either, but seems like lately, anyone that likes their v6 gets jumped on. Hell, camaro350man never even posted back on this thread, and he was the one that had the question! I like constructive crap ("no because of x/y/z") better than flaming crap ("enjoy your fantasy") any day.

Actually I guess nobody would like flaming crap. That's not a pretty picture.

Might be so, but when I talk about turns, I'm usually not talking about a road race. It'd be interesting to take two STOCK cars, a STOCK v6 and a STOCK v8, somehow launch them both into a turn, and see who can take it the tightest IN NEUTRAL. Of course that sounds like an accident waiting to happen, but hey, it'd still be interesting.

Bone stock, the iroc would whoop us based entirely on available 245/50/16 rubber and utterly superior suspension packages... let's face it, our cars don't come with alot of ability, just their fair share of potential

I know of some guys that live in Knoxville who have the LS1 motors in 4th gens, and with 4.10 gears are getting 27-29 MPG with the 6-speed tranny's. I would suggest if you're going to do the swap, do the LS1 or LT1 swap with a 6-speed. The 2.8 in my Firebird (which finally went up at 207k with the wrist pins slapping) the most gas milage I got was around 24 MPG on the hwy.

Speaking about taking turns quickly, I got off the freeway last weekend and took the cloverleaf at 90km/h (55mph). No problems whatsoever. I could do it a lot faster before breaking loose. I finally got off the freeway with no minivans/crappy imports/18-wheelers in front of me slowing me down. Many thanks to the new V8 A-arms, new ball joints/bushings, and new Suspension Techniques springs.

Yeah, I haven't really been keeping an eye on the gas milage, but i think if you drive it easy you will get more then a v-8 easy. I had my bird on and just put it to the floor in first gear and it did throw me back in my seat. I was suprised. It's got some nuts. I would like an LS1, but the next car I get will be a 4th gen i think. Plus where I am there are more irocs around then 3rd gen firebirds. So i want to make my 2.8 nice and bring that to cruises because I never see them. I think they are good little cars, Lighter then the 8 so i think they handle better out of the box.

TomP????? Whats ur deal? What are you talking about me not replying to my post? I replyed 3 times now, I have been working crazy hours and have not had time. I work alot of hours to get money, sorry i don't have alot fo free time, so whatever it is you are saying is

I know how my car takes turns and it is pretty good. But i also remember back when z28guy had his stock suspension in his z28 and his car still took turns better with the stock suspension then my car can. Now with his spohn crap his car is like glued to the ground.

I guess thats one part that isnt motor soze related that we all can do to improve our cars.
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Lighter then the 8 so i think they handle better out of the box.
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They dont..


BTW I went to get gas today (or should i say i went to get raped?) And when i got back i reved the v6 real high for the hell of it, motor is beat anyway. Well coolant shot out of the side of the block below the pass side head. Not from a freeze out plug either. Im thinking the prev owner drove the car with a bad head gasket (one head gasket was new when i got it) and over heatted the car badly! I have smelled coolant before while i was driving.

Also tomorrow at 7 am, RIP little 2.8

That crossed my mind too (for better mileage when I rip mine apart. Do you think it would be alright with a stock 2.8 though? Would it have enough power to move the car on an uphill in that gear on the highway? (ie. actually hold your speed or increase, rather than lose speed)

Just downshift & get it over with.

I see were talking about the 2.8 gas mil. ect and debating towards V8's and V6's. But this kind of crossed my mind. Its my understanding that 2.8 and 3.1 are kind of the same thing. But hows the gas mil. on the 3.1 compared to the 2.8?

I have a 3.1 and I think my baby does good on the gas. So again what does better?

3.1 or the 2.8?

Thanks guys





P.S. I do apologize if I changed the subject......if I did.