As title says, i just got my car back from a mechanic that replaced my ignition module, cap/rotor, coil, and pickup coil. Battery was dead for 2 days while he had it, get car to spark again, he says that he has full fuel pressure at the rails when car is in the on possition but i dont think he ever checked to see if i was having a pressure drop when the car is accutally running. Well anyways he is blaming the shutter on a ECM that has not yet relearned the cars paramiters. Ive let the car cool and then restarted to let run for 20-30 min about 3 times to get it to relearn, and its still not performing in a way that i can even accelerate than ur average Grandma with out the thing shuttering and dieing. Ive check all fuses to make sure nothing was blow, they are all good. Distributer is still lose so that i could fool with the timing per the mechanics recomendations.

Im thinking fuel is the problem, cloged filter maybe?
Could the fuel pump still make fuel pressure at key on but then not beable to flow enough to feed the 2.8 at 1500RPMs?

 

Suprisingly enough, it could be your mass air flow sensor. i had that same problem and replaced the sensor and it was fixed. It's about $80 depending on where you look.

the question is, is your check engine light on? If so, run the codes. If you come up with 33 or 34, it's your sensor. If not, can't help you there.

 

actually i have a new MAF on there, i got one remand from Advanced Auto parts, well anyways they had a one year warranty on it, and ive replaced it 3 times in that year, it never did run as good as the OEM one, but the OEM one has that problem of when i hit a bump or something then it will cut out and make the engine hesitate, but ive put the OEM one back on to see if i could get the Shutter to stop by using a OEM MAF, and still no difference between the two is noticed at this point.

Before when the car did run well, i had better performance and economy when i had no MAF installed, making the comp run in its own world with set data and numbers, but i fear that got cleared with the battery unpluged for so long.

 

The limp mode data that you use while running the car without the MAF does not get erased when you unplug the battery. That data is burned into the chip. The problem is elsewhere.

 

The distributor is loose??? I can be turning itself while the engine is running and completely mess up the timing. Get that timing set right, tighten it down, and make sure all the spark plug wires are connected in the correct order/places.

 

I had the same problem with my vehicle about 3 weeks ago, turned out to be a burnt spark plug wire so I was running on 5 cylinders as opposed to 6, car would shake like an earthquake on acceleration. So check to make sure your spark plug wires arent fried, maybe the mechanic put them in awkward and left one resting on the exhaust manifold, that was my problem. Just figured id add my .02.

Dave

 

Hey, I had that problem too.

 

Solution: plug wire heat shielding, and ofcourse dont forget to install the new plug wire

 

New mechanic tells new story, streached timing chain, causing it to jump teeth, and is letting the cam to be 90* off when i rev up motor any causing slack to be generated, cure new timing chaing $450 with labor

so ive just droped over $800 to keep the car running so that in january or feb i can pull it all out and stick in my 350

 

the life story of just about all thirdgen owners.....

 

90°??? Is that a typo or is your engine really far from being in a running condition?

 

It would idle decently, with a small hesitation about once ever 10-20sec, took car to new mechanic and he said that the timing chain and streached enough that it skiped teeth and that when trying to acc it would stretch and cuase the cam to be way off, he sugested about 90*

 

OK do it yourself! It'll take you a good 4-5 hours even if you aren't experienced! Honestly I don't think an engine can even run if the chain skipped 1/4 of its teeth, 1 or 2 teeth, yes but 1/4 of all the teeth! Thats just... well

Seriously if you're willing to put a 350 in, a timing chain is a cinch.
Pull water pump pulley (4 bolts), water pump(10 bolts??), crank pulley (5 bolts), and harmonic balancer (borrow a puller from Autozone). Once that's off, timing chain cover (less than 5 bolts), then remove the cam gear (3 bolts). But before you remove the chain, make sure you line up the crank/cam gears in the right position. The new chain should come w/ 2 new gears, cam & crank. You'll need to borrow another tool from autozone (3 jaw gear puller) to get the crank gear off. Put everything back together: new chain and gears, clean the seal of the timing cover, then put that and the new water pump back on, then get the harmonic balancer back on (borrow the Harmonic balancer installer from Autozone again), then get the crank pulley on, then get the hoses back on, fill her up w/ new coolant and check for leaks. You're back in business! And notice the way she revs after!

 

Yea i thought about how much it would be to just rent and do it myself, so i plan to, found a buddy with all the pullers that i need, so im going to install the new timing chain this weekend.

So budget is somewhat back for the 350 :lala:

time to start ordering more parts again

 

dude, I know that you say you just had the ignition system redone, but that's got to be where your problem is. You have a HEAVY misfire when you put it under load. It's definitly ignition and the mechanics in your area are full of crap. i bet that if you can find a mechanic willing to hook it up to an an ignition scope and show it to you on the screen, that guy WILL find the problem.

 

If you go in for the timing chain AND SPROCKETS, ask to have the old parts back. That's a law in NJ to prevent fraud, and I'm not saying your mechanic's cheating you (a timing chain on a 2.8/3.1/3.4 isn't as easy to do as on a V8 305/350 so it's probably not a job he can knock out in a half hour), but I'd love to see a picture of all those teeth!!

It is interesting though, that you've gone to two mechanics. Which one do you trust more? I'm guessing you prefer the first guy. If he didn't suggest the timing chain, it might be okay.

You could have him install the Cloyes true dual roller chain, too- it's $90 at Summit Racing, meant just for our 60 degree V6's.

That re-learn you did of the computer isn't gonna do it. I've found that the best - and fastest - re-learn happens when you clear the computer's memory (by removing the NEGATIVE cable from the battery- undo the negative so you don't get shocked), then reconnect the negative, and go for a 1/2 hour's drive away from your house at highway speeds (50 mph). Then you've gotta come back home for another 1/2 hour... gives you an hour's of drive time.

Just idling in the driveway won't do anything other than help the car learn how to idle.

I totally agree with camaro_junkie about the timing- you shouldn't be able to move the distributor at all! Get a $30 timing light and set the timing correctly.

Incidently, that happened to me with my mechanic. He rebuilt my distributor back in '96, but it didn't solve the problem. He rigged the fuel pump relay so I could make it home, and then I took out my service manual and fixed the problem right away. (Had a bad ring terminal.) ANYWAY... I don't think he tightened the dist down enough. That was probably because the car still wasn't fixed. So when the fuel pump died in '97, after I replaced the pump, the car wouldn't start. I panicked, thinking I screwed up the fuel pump installation. SO I started checking things- the center of my #1 spark plug was GONE. Checked a little more; my timing was so far advanced that it was off the scale!!

So that caused detonation and blew the #1 plug to little bits. After I set the timing back to spec (10 degrees advanced), I was good to go. Put that timing back to spec and tighten that hold-down bolt. Then disconnect the battery for a bit (remember- negative terminal!! Don't ever un-do the positive terminal if the negative is still connected!), hook the neg cable back up, start the car, and go for a ride.

Admit it; you guys missed my long messages, didn't ya?

 

nice to see TomP cares we all know u do

Well anyways, second mechanic said that it was timing chain, had a quote, he said he could get it done for $525, using a Dealership OEM replacement. I call the first gay back and take the car back down there to see if he would diagnose the same thing, sure enough he does, quotes me at $375 using the same OEM replacement. So the car is in the shop, i didnt feel good enough about my self working on the car quite yet, i dont have to tools nor a facility to work on it

But i will have all the stuff i would have needed at the start of the new year

If i can get the parts back, (dont know KS laws well enough) Then i will deff post pics, where it sits now he says that it jumped teeth, so yea i wana see what all he means.

he calls back, says it was off quite a bit, could have more damage done, he could not get the #1 to hold pressure before takeing the chain off, there could be damamge valves or pushrods

Man oh man what a nightmare, hopefully the cam was just so out of sinc that he could not find the compresion stroke and it didnt make anything bang togeather, deff didnt sound like anything was too badly damage when it would idle, wich it did well enough.

*gota try and match TomP's message size *

 

I seem to remember someone claiming that there was zero interference between the piston and the valves. If that is true, there shouldn't be any mechanical damage to the valves due to the timing chain jumping.

 

Yeah, I've heard the same thing, too. Seems sorta impossible tho when you see our flat top pistons! But I guess it's more of an issue for a front wheel drive 2.8/3.1, since they had to cut valve reliefs in the pistons.

Actually the NJ law is to prevent fraud... your mechanic probably wouldn't mind giving you the old parts. The idea (in NJ) is that it's kind of "proof" that the mechanic really did change the part. I guess someone could come in with a slipping trans, get charged $2000 for a "new trans" but the mechanic just had to fill the old trans up with fluid... beats me. I never had to worry about it; I do 99% of my own work, and the 1% goes to my mechanic who I trust. (Usually he hates seeing me with that 1%; it means I either screwed something up, or it's gonna be a pain in the butt job for him to do.)

 

Yea, i try to avoid taking it in as much as possible to save the $. Well anyways, call down there to see when i could pic the car up, umm ur chain is on, it runs "better" something is still wrong

i cant wait till i get my v-8 in, i can work on them fine, but im just a little nervous to mess with the comp stuff on mine right now, plus alot of the work would require diagnostic tools that say one thing is wrong with its a bunch of things going wrong. With the carbed set up, its easy, noise? fuel? spark?

 

as long as you didn't shave the heads and put in domed pistons, then your valves should not hit the pistons. I actually pooped a chain @4K rpm and nothing happened. Replaced the cahin, set the timing, and had a car running like new again...well as close to new as 210K miles can be.

 

Well its an all stock motor, exept for some new components as in ignition, and now timing chain

well anyways mechanic says "it still has a hesitation, ill get down to the nitty gritty" samething he been saying for the last 3 days

 

My 3.1 is doing the same exact thing.. Had it at 3 different shops.. Still sitting in the 3rd one as of now.. 2 weeks their.. 1st mechanic said it was my coil and my cat was stopped up.. replaced both and nothing changed.. 2nd shop said it was my computer.. got a new computer and still same problem.. 3rd one is saying that i need a new fuel pressure regulator..

Fuel pressure would drop to 5 when he would hit the gas..he replaced that and its till doing the same thing.. This time i got smart and looked for a shop that garunteed the work. So he wont let it leave till he finds the problem.. Wonder if i shoild have him look at the chain..

I believe it's doing the same as yours.. Runs fine at idle but once you start to drive, it shutters and hesitates.. Does it backfire or anything? Mine does out of the intake once it starts hesitating..

 

Im pretty sure it is backfireing, just not where, i didnt have it running for more than 5min before i had it back at the shop . Im starting week 4 on my wait, mechanic killed my 3month old Advanced Auto A/C delco starter atleast i have a onetime replcement warranty.

 

black90, fuel pressure dropped to 05 psi? Sounds like either a bad pump, or maybe the mechanic re-used the old pulsator. The pulsator is a square piece-o-crap that goes between the pump and the fuel line; it's supposed to "quiet the pump". It connects to the pump and fuel line by o-rings, which over time, will crack and leak, causing low pressure. Either the pulsator should be replaced ($40), or thrown out and a short length of high-pressure hose substituted in it's place. I use the short length of hose; the pump doesn't seem any louder to me.

 

Well i talked to my mechanic today and the fuel pressure problem has been fixed.. It was the regulator.. But the car still shtters and shakes.. I told himt o check the timing chain and he said it was fine.. I may change it anyways since its a 175k miles and never been changed.. But he still dont know whats causing the Shaking and backfiring and such..

 

This is a real stumper eh?

 

maybe pull the injector and have them cleaned n flow benched. what $60

Of course a full tune up.

Check disturbitor for worn busing causing wobble.

 

My pesky backfiring boiled down to an improperly factory shimmed distributor.

Joe and I had done everything else we could think of, fuel pump, injectors, adj fuel pressure reg, timing chain, new balancer, plugs, wires, cap & rotor, eliminated the EGR, new idle control valve, new throttle position sensor...etc... Even rebuilt the dist per TomP's outline. Still had backfire stutter issues. Car was better though. Bumped the timing up to 12. That helped too. Then thought about how hard to set the timing. The car would jump to extremes as you tried to set the timing. Almost unsetable. this is when Joe remember what and old mechanic friend said about spark scatter. If the distributor, even tightened down is not shimed right, it will allow endplay.

Just a thought!

 

GM dealer mechanic gives me the lowdown, and communicates with my mechanic, Dissy shaft can become magnitized in the correct conditions, witch inturns throughs off how the dissy communicates with the ECM and then adjust spark advance and FUEL delivery. So what cha got todo, new dissy saft or demagnitize, New shaft will be intomarrow to see if that was the problem.

The GM guy had said he had seen something similar before, checked his history and that turned up, only seen it 2 timesbefore.

 

Make sure you let us know.. I replaced pick-ip coil, ignition coil, cap, rotor, plugs, wires and nothing happened..

 

Car is fixed :lala:


I found out that i didnt have an OEM Distributer in my car, that was replaced i know about 2yrs ago when i first got the car, so i do not know for sure if it was purely the shaft or not, my mechanic forgot to give me my old parts but i will get them latter next week after this weekend, and ill take pics of the shaft holding metal as a magnet if it does do so.

Also with the timing chain, yea it had a chiped tooth, i do have that, but its going to be a little while before i get a pic up, atleast i got the awsoem power of the v-6 back

 

Awesome. That magnetic distributor shaft is interesting to say the least.

 

Another thing to stick away in the vault of what ifs. Never heard of this before now!

Glad its back working!

 

Well i got a little treat, i know this had somehting to do with the problem and if it didnt, then it would have soon, this is the only part that i have back so far that looks like it was definitly not in working order.

 

Awesome!! Thanks for letting us know what the problem was!!! (So many times we help someone, but they never come back and say what happened.)

And what the Hell is that part?? Is that the crankshaft sprocket for the timing chain??? Damnnnn....

 

yep thats the sproket, i try to support my fellow TGO memebers when i have issues, i just dont have too many, but when i do they are huge

yea and i agree that when we do help others, they sometimes wont post back what the actually solution was, hurting our community.

Thanks for all the help, as i said, ill get ahold of that distributer and get it posted as well with some proof if it was magnitized or not

 

New horrible news

Get car back, show parts online, car runs ok, still lacking atleast 30% of its power up top. Ok im satisfied, its only got to last me another few months till i get anouther 1500 or so to finish my motor and buy the new tranny for the carbed 350 swap.

I log 125 miles, mechanic calls me, oh yea i checked the oil the lvl WAS fine, but had some gas in it ill change it out next chance i get.

I log 175 miles, leave a stop light a little hard taking it right up to 3k, get half way though it, CLONK, CLONK..... i imeadiatly pull off thinking, ahh crap, rear end? na still drove forward, snaped rod?, na no oil pooring out, pull off car dies once i get into a parking lot, i check for leaks, none, have a friend turn the car over, it starts right up, but the crank pully and harmonic ballancer are now off center, and is slaping the timming chain cover.

Take off the surp belt after running and getting tools from my house, ok i can move the crank pull by hand but the bolts are all torqued down.

Call mechanic in morning to say, umm u didnt do something right its towed there, and he tells me, well theres no oil on the dip stick, u ran out , so now i got a car with 1700 in new parts in it including the tranny that i have 500 miles on, and a car inundriveable conditions.

Just wondering, he took off the balancer and pully to put the timming sproket on when he changed the timming chain, imgoing to check it out and see if he hit somethng to make an oil leak, becuase i know that i dont ahve that bad of a ring consumption problem.

Question, if i find that he may have done somethng in the event of him re assembling my timing chain, cuasing and oil consumption issuse(i park in a garauge, and there was NO oil spots) should he have to replace my engine? What if he is trying to save him self from doing somethng cauasing this problem, and drianed the oil trying to say that i had a leak somewhere and saving him self a new engine. He also replaced my distributer, could somethng there have gotten messed up cuasing oil consumption, im going to check coolent and where it broke here in the next hr or so.

WOW im PISSED

 

There's a seal on the timing chain cover, and on the crank itself. If he failed to clean up the timing chain cover seal and sealed it up w/ RTV, it could leak there, or the crank pulley seal, it could leak there.

 

There should be oil on it if you were leaking. He told you it was fine when you left and 125 miles later your empty??? Something is wrong.

Best thing to do man is take it another shop asap. You will never know any truths with it in his hands.

Dad had a oil pump replaced by a local garage and few months later it lost oil pressure, I change it for him then and when I got the pan off I found a hand full or so of small gravel in it.

How it got there no one knew but ya couldn't miss it once the pan was off.

also Id call some local news places and the BBB, that shop may have lots of complaints and they might, might look into it by setting the guy up. hidden cameras and a known problem with a car, take it to him and see what he does.

 

he said that he was having some trouble to get the timming chain cover to seal, i looked at it, and i cant tell if oil was comming out there, just becuasei have so much grease already on my cross member under the pan

He is saying, if i would or could have done it, and caused a leak then i would replace the engine, but i cant find proof that i was at falt.

I found out that i have 2qts in the pan, i didnt burn it all, i never even had noticeable smoke comming out of the car, drained rad, green and clear, i dontknow what the hell happend to the oil

 

Well its hard man. An honest mechanic is like finding an honest car salesmen. They do a job to make money, not friends.

christmas is coming too.

Id still check around about him. Find out if this is common.

--------

There is an engine builder in Toledo, aarons. And he screws up people crap left n right. still in business. after my buddy got screwed and took it to another shop, they guy said oh yea, I fix 2-3 of his screw ups per week.

I knew the guy was bad as soon as he said the crank needed turned .020 and a bunch of other crap that cost $$$. Then he was dumb enough to show us the shop. the motor wasn't even taken apart yet.

Cost him another $1500 to get the motor done right.

He sure seamed like a nice honest guy. Real old dude been in business 40+ years. and still screwin people.

 

So mechaninc said he chaecked the level and it was fine, but smelled of gas...Honestly I would not change the timing chain and drive w/o having the oil changed after anyway. He should have done the oil change on the car before it left. Esp with messing with the dist. Oil is cheap, so is a filter, but that is just me! Now, if he said the car was fine when it left at such and such miles, how in such and such miles later is it now empty of oil, unless he did something that allowed oil to drain out. Well any good shop should have logged your mileage when the car came in. Is it listed on the invoice? If so, then you can show him that.

Joe & I had the engine completely torn down when it was time for my timing chain swap...cam swap...etc...at the same time. Since I have not seen or done a straight timing chain swap...I wonder, is any oil lost when the timing chain is swapped? Could it have been low and enough leaked out this way and he just lied about checking it? Then add in the cover he was having issues sealing. Seems odd, almost more like it was an afterthought to call you after the car is gone to say that the oil needed changing. Like opps I forgot to check it better have him come by so i can change it/check it for real. Any good mechanic never would have let a car that had gas in the oil leave w/o changing it in the first place. He would have checked it, smelled the gas and smiled knowing he could bill you for more. They are all about extra time and $. I don't think he would have forgotten that extra income!

Also I remember, TomP mentioning the gasket/o ring for the distributor being a common place for oil leaks that you never see/ realize. Now, the mechanic obviously took the dist out and replaced it. Maybe the dist did not seal all the way, or he did not replace the gasket/o ring on the dist? I think I even remember some people using gasket and o ring on the dist to ensure no leaks cause the area was so prone to leak. You said you never saw any oil on the ground. See if any is fresh on the back of the motor. Did you smeall any odd smells when you were driving it? Maybe oil leaking and burning off on the exaust? Is the dist good and tight? Check your timing as well, if not, that could be your power loss.

 

I did notice a small smell once, the day it broke the crank.

Ok so what if he didnt replace the seal on the back of the motor when swaping out the distributers, that would cause an oil leak when the car is running, right? So a full 30-60 PSI of pressure would push the oil up the shaft, and out of the top of the motor, and down the back over the transmission.

Would that be enough to cuase a loss of 2-3qts of oil in just 150mi? And no he did not log the milage on an invoice, but he has dates of when i got it, and when it came back, he also admited that he noticed that i hand burned a tank of gas and that i had loged what was 1-3 miles on the trip meter to 150-175.

My plan is that im goign to rally up some other mechanics and have them take a look at it and see if they can give me a better idea of where 3qts of oil went in 2-3days

i didnt notice any oil leakes, but it was out side for the last day that i had it, driving mostly, could have spilled over and out.

Oh and my oil pressure guage does not work

But i do have a properly functioning oil pressure safty, or i thought i did, or is that an idiot light back up

 

You should be able to find oil somewhere if it was leaking.

Had a pinto once with a rear main leak. It was obvious every where I went. It didn't lose more then a quart a week. It was a ford and got jug's of use motor oil for free. Drove it for ever and sold it leaking.

 

Ok so i had 2qts of oil left, could oil not have caused the crank to break?

 

You're lucky you're still around!

A little off topic, but...

 

It was surprisingly fast for an inline 4. It was a 4 speed stick. a friend bought it and fixed it all up. Out ran an older Porsche in it once. It was a hi speed run starting off at 65-70mph. Guy couldn't pass me though. wasn't my car then either just borrowing it.

Though that pinto set me down a path of the trade up game
paid $185 for it
sold it for $400
paid $495 for a 68 ford galaxi
traded it for a 9sec drag bike
sold for $900 blown up


Well the broken crank sounds like maybe it was ready to go before the balancer change. Then running low on oil didn't help.

Most motors I have seen blown from low oil it was the front of the motor that took all the damage.

I didn't realize your oil gauge don't work. Should of fix that long ago. it may of saved you all of this for a $20 fix. Gotta have an oil gauge on these cars.

 

hopefully soon ill get some way to transport my car down to a new guy, some of my family has done work with him and its all came out great, he is right down the street from wher ei work, and i see different F-bods sitting out every once in a while, about one a week or so, im going to try and get my car down to him and have him look it over.

Latter on today ill go back and visit my lonly car, and see if i can find any more evidence of the oil leak. Cool thing is both shops are about 3 miles away, no way im paying another 65-70 to have it towd. So im arranging a friend to haul it.

I was offered another car to use for a while, only catch hasnt ran for about 22 months, 84 Delta 88 red, Changed all the fluids,1/4 tank of gas left, and some burned out tail lights, actually they light up but very dim, car starts fine, but idles high, no tach but i would guess around 1300 rpms before i stick it in gear, needs a brake job in the front, but shot its got a 305 in it with a quadrajet.

 

shoot only 3 miles away, Id just push or pull it with another car.

that delta will work fine.