Yea sometimes even we check things go bad, but take heart, I found your problem. I know it's kinda your field, but you just have to stop using the term FIRE IT UP so much and use the term START THE ENGINE instead and maybe you'll have better luck. Sdie note: Even though with a Fiero it just makes it that much harder to convince people that our little cars are not "fires waiting to happen," I have a fire bottle mounted inside my car. Aside from the practicality, it looks kind of cool. Be waiting to see some pictures.

 

Never mind the folks who shout "Fire in the hole!"

 

yea i understand that but due to my attraction to redheads, i perfer the phrase " fire down below"
maybe it is the racer in me that always uses the phrase fire it off, but eithor way, it is kinda funny, i am always reffering to starting the car as firing it off, now all of a sudden, i really fired it off......
hopefully some pics will be coming soon from my digital camera to the sight....

Shaun

 

The clutch is done, so back to work on the intake. Any pics would be appreciated!

 

working on it, shannon, and joe....
been trying to get the pics loaded, but the d**n computer won't let me load the required software. i got a buddy that is supposed to do it for me, but he hasn't had time the last couple of days.

 

I will post my opinions...

Those welds look horrible.
Using steel is a bad idea.

The improvement that is shown is nice, but what do you expect when you remove a 100+* bend from the intake?

I think the intake will and does suffer from heat soak, after all you are oging from a steel head, to an aluminum base back to steel.

I will say that while anything is an improvement, you have a good basic thing going, you should be working on getting that kicked over to aluminum. Tooling expenses are not any higher, and they will actually last longer bending the softer aluminum.

Have you considered using rectangular tubing? you could get it in the actual size of the base runner and roll them to the round tube upper.

Not bashing, just posting opinions and possible suggestions...
While I had my camaro I was toying with a ver similar idea using rectangular aluminum tubing.

 

it'll never happen, a few of us have voiced our concerns and nothing has been said

 

That is why I said what I sad and how I said it.
I am not going to get into a fight with them, I am not going to argue with them, I simply posted my opinions.

And posted some sugestions...

they can ignore it, take it whatever... I know how I would lik to do mine, and that is what matters.

 

exactly, i'm kinda curious how many of these units have been sold?

i'm only heard about the 2 people on here, raif and blueracer

 

What can I say...
I've got one of these manifolds. I drive to and from work in Atlanta traffic. (It's been mid 90s, here, for the past two weeks).
Heat soak is not a problem.
(Even under the Fiero's decklid. And we're the people who go through alternators and ignition modules like popcorn, due to underhood heat.)

It's_just_not_ an_issue.

If it was, I wouldn't be here. On the contrary, I would be here telling you not to bother spending your money.

 

are they smog legal? I'm not reading through this entire ****ing thread...

For what motors are they?

 

They're for the iron-head 60 degree V-6.
They probably wouldn't pass a California-style visual, but mine passed the Metro Atlanta sniffer test just fine. And that's with 1.6 rockers.
All the emissions stuff remains intact, although they can be ordered without EGR hookups, if that's what you want.

That's the cool thing about this. It's custom built to your specs. You can get long or short runner versions, with or without EGR fittings, custom snout and flange for big TBs, etc., etc.

 

Do you have intake temps before and after?
Both internal air, and actual metal surface temps?

If not then you have no technical or scientific basis for saying what you are saying.
If you do, please post 'em up. It will do something to PROVE it.

As I said earlier, simply removing that bend does alot to improve things. That does not mean that the intake charge is any better temp wise...

And about spending money, I will make my own for well less than half (if not 1/4) that price.

 

No. I don't have any intake temp readings. And I doubt that many other people would bother.

What I do have is a dyno chart that shows a gain of 15 HP peak, and a whopping 30+ gain at ~5500. The added area under the curve is huge.
That's the kind of science that most people are interested in.

Go right ahead. Knock yourself out. We'll be here, going faster, while you're still building. Are you actually going to offer them for sale? Or are you just trying to slam someone else's product.

 

I never said that they did not make power, I said that they could be better.
If you dispute that learn to read my posts.

Oh what a comeback... I never slammed their product. I even made sure to point that out. I offered my opinions, and suggestions for making it better. I also said that they can heed it, ignore it I could care less.

And yes, you could be going faster while I am building mine but what happens when I finish mine and am going faster... not to mention having power and temp numbers stating what mine can and does do. I would also give the info to anyone that would like to make one for themselves.

You seem to have an attitude like those PRE customer guys...
Get all defensive about something that is not being attacked.

And no, I would not make them to sale to other people, I would be doing it for myself.

 

i'm curious about the temp readings, i asked a long time ago, but no ones stepped up and said anything.

i would love to buy a new intake for my car, but until heat soak can be proven not to be a problem, this isn't the intake for me

 

becarefull, you'll start an arguement...

that is also why I pointed that out several times...

 

How much are these manifolds?
Where Can I buy them?
Do they come with a stock or bigger TB?

 

manifolds, with no modifications are 650 plus shipping

 

What does with "no modifications" mean?

Are they stock computer friendly?

 

as long as you reset the ECU for the new parameters, yes.

What new parameters? higher flow rates at lower RPM's.
Though it is nothing it cannot handle as long as it stays N/A.

The modifacations thing, I have no idea.
I just have issues with the item.

 

I want to keep the motor NA so computers shouldent be an issue..

Reseting the ECU meaning disconnect the battery for an hour?

 

10-15 minutes.

 

Who do I talk too about buying this thing?

 

www.trueleo.com
They also will supply a chip that is designed to compensate for the additional airflow of the manifold, and whatever other mods you have done to your engine.

FWIW, I'm running an iron head 3.4 with 1.6 rockers, 19# injectors, 57mm TB, and Sprint (unequal length, but very low restriction) headers. I also passed Atlanta emissions (2 speed dyno test with sniffer) with no problem.
As a little bit of background, people have been swapping 3.4s into Fieros for years. The largest restriction has historically been the intake manifold. It didn't matter what you did, the engine always choked at ~4500 RPM. Power was limited to ~150 RWHP. The 3.4 Fiero guys are jumping all over this thing. People who have done flow testing have pretty much determined that this intake flows enough air to make more than 300 HP, if the rest of the engine will support it. The next major restriction is probably the heads. Since mine are stock, that's the next thing I'm going to work on. And maybe a 272 cam, as well.

V6sucker...
Maybe I misinterpreted your criticism as a slam. If I did, I apologize.

As for the heat soak thing, think about something.
Aluminum conducts heat much more easily than steel. Right?
If it's 200 degrees under your hood, the heat is going to warm up the manifold more quickly than a steel one. That heat will then heat up the air in the manifold.
What I'm getting at is the aluminum intake will conduct more heat into the incoming air than the steel intake.
At least in theory. In actual practice, I don't think that there will be a dime's worth of difference.

 

yes aluminium will heat up faster then steel, thus heating incoming air, but steel retains heat much better, and since aluminium isn't going to stay as hot as long, i'd bet you'd find more horse out of an aluminium intake of this same design.


i'm not bashing the design one bit, i think its a very good infact, i'm bashing the fact its made out of steel, and the price, if this was 200 cheaper i would most likely buy it, but i simply cannot justify spending more on a steel plenum then getting a set of heads p+p 3 angle valve job, new springs etc.


imho for being steel, it is simply not worth what is being asked, i understand r and d time and over head and such, but more units would be sold at 450 then 650 thus making more money back

 

Aluminum has a higher heat disapation level that steel.
Steel does take longer to warm up, but also takes ALOT longerto cool down.

Want a real world test? heat two pans of equal weight surface area. One aluminum, one steel.

This is the same principal. It is also why high end cooking pans are going to aluminum. They heat up quickly, and evenly. They also cool off much more quickly.

I have cooked with a steel pan before and it was still HOT like 200* 30-45 minutes later.

I am not wanting to get into an arguement here, but I do know something of meal behaviour.
Do you not see why and how the automotive industry has moved away from steel heads, and steel hipo blocks?...

 

Well, 30 HP Gain. Stock bolt on,works with stock ****.
But fot $650. Around $500 I'd do it, 650 i need to kinda think bout it.

 

EXACTLY! Because the heat from the aluminum pan goes *into the air* more quickly and easily. If it doesn't go into the air, where does it go?

Since the intake air is cooler than the underhood heat and the intake, it seems to me that all that heat is going to be used to warm up the incoming air.

What am I missing?

 

that steel will do it alot better once warmed up, and for alot longer after the motors off.

and since when you get back to the car a half hour later the manifold will still be very hot, its a very bad idea for a daily driver, the aluminium however would of cooled off more then the steel.

 

are you suggesting that steel is a better material for intakes than aluminum? dont answer that, i dont want to know the answer, i just want to make you stop and think. I actually dont even plan on coming in this thread again for quite some time.

one more thing(note: i have no personal grudges or anything, im just an impartial observer). are you a materials engineer? you seem awful sure of yourself for something you have yourself alluded that you have no actual knowledge about. I'll say it right now, i have no real knowledge about it either(yet), thats why im not involving myself in the factual debate of whether/howmuch aluminum is better than steel, or vice versa. im merely suggesting you (and anyone else who has no real knowledge of materials science) recognize your position here.

hasta!

 

They not $650 plus shipping. They start at $600 plus $25 shipping. That price includes the chip and the near-chrome powder coating. If you want a special TB plate, or other mod the price is more. It's all listed at our site trueleo.com. Go to the site there is a heck of a lot of info on it.

 

think about it for a second. steel retains heat much better which is why it is used for headers and other exhaust applications because the hot air flows faster than cooler air. if aluminum held in the heat as well as still you can bet it would be used for headers since it is lighter than steel. a lot of the heat inside the engine compartment is coming off of the manifold as well as the exhaust pipes and is being dissipated out. it is already hot inside the plenum no matter what metal you use. the steel will retain the heat more while the aluminum will dissipate it out much faster. as the air moving inside the engine compartment begins the cool the outside of the plenum, the heat moves out faster trying to create a balanced temperature inside and out. the steel will take longer to cool therefore drawing the hot air to the outside much slower.

 

okay, i guess it is time that i chimed in on this one.....

when the engine caught fire from the leaky injector, car was running for 30 mins standing still...... i still had better throttle response than i ever could think of with the stock manifold. that is alot of heat built up on the intake, right, wrong, i still could lay my hand on top of the intake. yea it was warm, but not hot.

second i am a machinist, i know the material characteristics of most metals out there.... with that being said, do you honestly think that i would get a shoddy product? that intake was the first one EVER made for our cars(F-Bodies) raif and i both know and knew that there were gonna be some minor flaws that we were gonna have to deal with. i can't wait til tuesday when i get my pics of mine up..... mine doesn't have any ugly welds on it.... all are quite well done.

i am running one of the biggest throttlebodies on the board with the exception of alan(same size), and raif(same size and style tb)
with the mods that i have on the car right now, i garuntee that i now have over 250 horsies getting to the ground... that is headers, intake, throttlebody, clutch, underdrive pulley, 8.8 mm accel wires and a few ranges hotter plugs.

also remember that as hot air speeds up, it cools down. i am sucking in alot of air, i would like to get a dry bulb thermometer to measure air temp inside the intake both hot and cold. i bet there isn't 15* difference.

 

I have thought. Quite extensively. And I *will* answer your question. In this case, I don't think it makes a hill of beans what it's made of. In mass production, it's probably easier to cast hundreds of identical aluminum pieces. In one-off production such as this, they don't have that luxury. Steel will do just fine.
(Aren't the original 5.0 and 5.7 TPI runners made of steel tubing? I could be wrong.)

Nope. I'm not a materials engineer. But I do have a lot of experience in how stuff works in the real world. Enough experience to know that aluminum will absorb and dissipate heat much more readily than steel. One good example of this is the old carbed V8 stuff I used to mess with. I never had a fuel evaporation problem with cast iron intakes. Aluminum intakes were a different story. When the car was turned off, an aluminum intake would wick the heat right out of the heads and into the carb. The fuel would evaporate in very short order. As soon as the engine was started, and the fuel bowls filled up again, all was well. Usually. There were insulated carb spacers sold to prevent this evaporation.
Stay with me here... The point I'm trying to make is that on our engines, the air under the hood is going to be hotter than the air coming in through our intake system. (We are running cold air systems of some sort. Right?) No matter what the manifold is made of, the under hood heat and the heat transferred from the heads, is going to be transferred to the cooler air. The intake air. Aluminum will heat up the intake air much more efficiently.

As I said before... In actual practice, I don't think it will make a dime's worth of difference.
Tell you what I'll do... I've got two different cars. One with a 2.8 with a stock plenum. The other with a 3.4 with the Trueleo. If I can come up with a temp probe of some sort, I'll try to measure the intake air temp of both of them, while driving and after a hot soak. I'll report it here.
I'm not guaranteeing when that will happen, as the 2.8 car is in the middle of having some fairly extensive bodywork done.

Peace.

 

(Lt1Guy...dam$ cookies!)

I think most of us agree that aluminum is the preferred material, and that there may be a slight advantage to using it. However, its not like anyone has a comparable intake for sale (no other intake is in production that I know of) in aluminum. At any rate, its going to be a vast improvement over the stock "Klingon Battle Cruiser", as Raydar can attest, and a slight loss from heating up in daily driving is going to be far outweighed by greater flow. I don't know about you guys, but here in the South its pretty common practice to throw a bag of ice or an ice pack on the intake between runs (dyno or dragstrip) to cool things down,so the material will be even less relevant. A plenum spacer (like commonly used on 5.0 Mustangs) wouldn't work, since it would mess up all the angles, but maybe a slightly thicker gasket of a heat resistant material would help, or two conventional gaskets sandwiching a very thin piece of aluminum (similar to the carb insulators Raydar spoke of).
Hoepfully we'll have Redraif's car running this weekend, and get some dyno tests in next Thursday at Dynolab. We're going to drive it straight from Jonesboro to Marietta for the test (about 35 miles), through Atlanta traffic, and considering our heat and humidity if it doesn't totally ruin our dyno results, it probably won't hurt any of yours, either. We will do some tests with it cooled back down also, though, for a more fair comparison.

 

glad to hear that you are gonna have it running soon, as i said i had mine running for quite a while before i started to tune it, and it wasn't bad at all. that was at like 94* ambient air temp with alot of humidity. i know the forecast said it would be like 96 that day. and i am down in jacksonville. poor ole alan down there, i hope he got a great a/c in his house!

 

i'm go ahead and call bull**** on this, theres no way you are running 250 horse with just what you have there, run on a dyno, chassis that is and post the results, because if you are running 250 with just those mods, then hell my new motor will be pushing easily twice that.

this is not a flame at all, i have no real problem with you other then you run your mouth about **** you have no clue about to sound important.

please post some dyno numbers and shut me up

 

didnt want to choose sides on this, but im gonna have to go with kretos on this one and pull the flag

a 2.8 with headers/intake/tb? id give you 160-165 rwhp, and even that might be a tad generous

 

If you used some phenolic plastic as spaces between the engine and manifold heat transfer should be minimal.
A few time I considered making intake spacers out of them for the stocker.
First I thought to make them just for the top half. But making them for the bottom intake too would be better. Could also virtually lengthen the stock runner 1-2-3 inches. Plus stop any and almost all-direct heat transfers. Any heat transfer would just be radiant heat from the motor.

 

Though you would need to port match a lower gasket. You can't just slap on some squared off gasket and think it will run fine like that.

 

Not trying trash an idea, but I would not suggest using spacers of any type between our intake and the lower one. Doing such, even a 1/8 or 1/4" one will screw up the angles big time. We went to great lenghts to ensure that our intake mates with the lower one at the correct angle even a small spacer will creat a zig-zag and cut down on flow. If you can't comprehend this, maybe I'll make a drawing.

 

hello, kretos, i understand what you mean, feeling is mutual.

but you got to remember, i have more done to the engine than that, i rarely list everything that i have on the car. the list just gets too freggin long, so i just put stuff like headers, intake, tb, wires, plugs, you know the bare essentials, not shaved heads(.01"), ported and polished, 3 angle valve job using manley undercut valves, gasket matched intake and exhaust ports, with crane such and such rate springs, and this type retainers, and the studs are custom made from monel, or any thing like that...... just bare essentials.

by the way everything i just stated is true about my heads but the valves. theese are just a get me by til i can get the other set to supersix for full headwork to them.
oh yea when i say polished, i mean polished to the point where i can see myself in them!!!!!

oh yea still running open headers too.... and i am not that far off of alan's setup with what i am running, plus i got the manual and we won't go there about manuals getting power to the ground.
when i get back from elpaso in october, i most deffinately get it to a dyno, and get another chip burned for it that way i don't keep having this problem with you guys.
i love dremmels!!!!

 

Raydar, you are not getting what and how heat soak works. I have explained this before and I will one more time.

Heat travels "through" aluminum faster than steel.
The intake does NOT get its heat from the engine bay, it gets its heat comming off the heads where the combustion takes place producing heat. That heat dissapates up into the intake manifold as well as other parts of the motor.

When the heat travels into the intake maifold from the heads, the aluminum will transfer the absorbed heat quicker to its surface area releasing it into the air (both inside and outside the intake, so yes some heat goes into the runners).

Steel does the same thing as aluminum. So where's the difference? The difference is what I posted a while ago on the heat transfer properties between steel and aluminum.
Aluminum will transfer heat conductivity at a rate of 237K
Mild steel (based on is makeup) has a range of 45-65K transfer rate.

Now if the heads are constantly producing cylinder heat temps of 800*, the aluminum intake will absorb a fraction of the heat as it transfers through the head into the intake base and up the manifold through the runners and plenum and even into the TB, the fuel rails, and the sensors. The heat disappates at a faster rate MEANING that the intake does not store as much heat because it releases it faster HERE'S THE PART RAYDAR IS MISSING That means the aluminum may only reach a maximum heat soak of 200* because of the surface volume and the mass of the aluminum intake.

Now the steel intake with the same mass and surface area will NOT dissapate that same heat coming off the heads as fast which means that since the heat travels SLOWER through the steel intake it will retain more and "bunch up" rendering higher retained heat soak (the heads are constantly producing more and more heat and the intake stores it longer before release) so the temps of the steel get much hotter than the aluminum and the steel manifold can go up to 300* before it releases the same amount of heat into the atmosphere.

It is just like if you take a garden hose and have the water flow out the end freely (aluminum) or you put a nozzle to restrict the flow then the pressure builds inside the garden hose (steel). The pressure in the hose is compared to the heat in the aluminum & steel. The more restristion of flow in the material, the more the heat rises.

Raydar, you ARE suffering from heat soak. Just think what that intake would be showing gains if it where made of aluminum instead of steel. AND how much your sensors would love you when they are running lower temps and lasting longer.

RTFC

 

Tell you what...
The temp probe should be here tonight (if it'll work in the range we need -not sure about that, yet.) My wife has got it at school.

I'm planning to pull a vacuum fitting and measure intake air temps with it.
You tell me under what conditions you want me to measure this. I'll do whatever tests you want, if it's physically manageable. I'll check temps both on the Trueleo, and on my other car with the stone-stock setup.

 

Though the intake is powder coated. Which creates a thermal bond that cools better then bare metal or any kind. One could ceramic coat the inside and gasket surfaces to stop contact transfer. Good black ceramic makes a 200f inside pipe temp, 65f on the out side surface.

Ceramic stuff is cheap and you only need a decent air brush.
But most need cured at 750-800F

TS KMA

 

i find this quite hard to believe considering you cant really lay your hand on the stock plenum after it has been running for any amount of time without snatching your hand away. now either your hand is completely desensitized to heat or we pull out the old on that one.

being a machinist doesnt mean crap when talking about the scientific qualities of metal. you are a "machinist", not a scientist.

there is no way in hell you have managed to more than DOUBLE the output of this engine. aint gonna happen with what you have done. a stock ls1 gto lays 291 hp at the wheels. you believe that your laying down over 250 at the wheels with an engine half the size without forced induction or nitrous. you have gotta stop throwing out numbers without proof. you look like an overzealous fool.

we all know that this intake is better than the stock so yes you will have better throttle response. for that price, it is not worth it considering the effects it may have with long term use as a daily driver. what happens when all these fiero owners start comin back with problems after several months of use because the amount of heat is killing injectors and sensors.

 

So is that intake able to bolt up to a 3rd gen V6? Maybe I missed some post. I like the fiero intake as is. It looks big and massive and would be so mad max sticking out of a hood 3-4 inches. Laser cut the hood to fit the profile very tight.

 

Yeah? How would that fit under a stock hood?

 

Yea its not gonna fit. But it would look badss peeking out some.

I bet 75% of those who buy do it for the looks As long as it performs as well or a tad better then stock, they are happy.