we know the freakin thing works. it would work a hell of a lot better if it were aluminum and it doesnt make enough of a difference to justify the cost of it. thats the point.

 

A minium of a 15% increase (stock engine) in power plus 2k rpm you didn't have before, is not worth $600? Show me another bolt-on that won't ruin your engine that will come close to that. Oh, and it don't hurt gas mileage either, actually helps.

 

Dean, I think you're missing the point. Or you refuse to open your brain and consider alternatives.

Personally I'm w/the camp that the intake material won't make a bit of difference for a variety of reasons. What do I know though; My car is only good for 12's (in the 1/4 -not the 1/8).

I can't wait to see Raydar's air temp results. A lot of ignorant people on this board will be in denial.

The final fact is that the thing improves power and the DYNO and the track do matter. I'd rather be ahead of you w/hotter intake air than behind you w/cooler. (Not that I think this intake will make your air hotter) because I don't think it will.

 

shaun, you're shooting for 11.5:1 CR with your next motor...not the one you are currently running. right? you will not, WILL NOT run it on 87 octane! i am running 10.75:1 compression and only run 93 or higher octane gas. i still get some spark knock. not bad but there is some there. the only way i see to run a lower grade fuel without tuning the computer to run filthy rich is to kill the timing...that's not gonna help your hp any. anyways, i can probably get my hands on that temp gun again...shouldn't be a problem. the 1/4 mile track isn't open for test-n-tune this weekend though.

"sheetmetal" intakes typically are not steel. you can buy aluminum sheetmetal and as far as i know, that's what most people do. i sometimes call my intake a "sheetmetal" intake just because of the way its constructed...cause its sure not a cast intake or anything of that nature...

 

There is no electronics mounted to the throttle body. The IAC is an actuator, a stepper motor.

The TPS is passive, it has a resistive strip and a mechanical wiper. No electronics.

RBob.

 

if there was truely enough of a heat increase, it would add to metal fatigue on those parts over time, but im not saying its really an issue, other then that i think i want one with dual tb's, also a question on that, do both tb's need the iac an tps to be hooked to the computer?

 

Man you just cannot explain simple things to people here...

It is totally pointless.
They are not willing to listen, even to sceintific FACTS...

If they cannot understand that... there are alot of stupid people on here that should not be posting because they have no understanding of what they are tring to defend.

If you think that steel will stay cooler than aluminum... your a stupid a** moron. Point blank and period. You have -0-, understanding of metal and how it acts... and to think you are making parts, not to mention labling them "performance" parts...

Just because it makes more power does not mean it's worth a **** to use.

I am tired of tring to explain metalurgy to a bunch of 3rd grader idiots.

 

running dual TB's is VERY tricky.

Now for warm up idle, I would use a thermo operated VW valve, that once it sees a certain temp, it closes.

For TPS, as long as both are perfectly timed/connected, you can get by with just one being hooked up.

 

No? Pretty much that's what it's all about. Hp/dollar. I'm not sure that this intake is the best ratio available, but it certainly seems that it works, and that IS, what it's all about.

He says after such a splendid, mature post. Way to go sucker!

 

yes, lets see...

lets jump up the intake temps and risk detonation...

And lets see, have you read anything about this thread and what is being discussed? if so and you agree with them, your just as stupid as they are, if you have not read anything... just shut up and get the fu*k outta the V6 board.

Otherwise... I will take a stock intake that will run cooler over something that is overpriced and risks the internals of the engine.

 

Intake temps huh? Well I'm not the only one out there with our intake on a turbo setup and none of have had any problems at all detonation and I can assure that turbos add heat to Air, a lot of heat, even with intercoolers!
Since you did not answer before on this point, I'll state it again another way: what will stay hot longer when placed out in the air, a thin sheet of steel or very thick sheet of aluminium? I'd bet they'd be pretty close. Our intakes are lighter than stock and thus have much less mass to absord and retain heat.

 

Another mature post. Good job sucker. Impressive that you can swear.

I hardly think that you need to worry about engine damage from an intake change on a 135 hp engine (at best).

When I want to leave the "sixage", I'll just roll on the throttle.

 

*laughes* I love how everyone's ignored the TWO PEOPLE THAT HAVE ACTUALLY POSTED TEMPERATURES - Alan and Dean.

*chuckles*

 

its funny, but the fact is everyone on here is to busy kissing someones *** for making an intake and selling it for a goddam small fortune

alan made a upper, only wanted 300 for it and its aluminium, also posted heat information.

francis has done **** to back up his product, he hasn't even taken the time to get the heat readings off his own intake to shut us up, i think this thread and the whole trueleo intake is a joke.

dean and alan got the info, yet people still argue without having any facts of their own.

 

Well.........

popcorn is $0.50

Water is $1.00

Pop is $1.25

Folding chairs and Lay-Z-boys are available for rent.
Call For details.......

I figured someone might as well profit from this thread..........

 

i still fail to see why this thread got opened again, has anything been accomplished in the past 150 posts since it was reopened?

come to think of it though, i have a laser thermometer gun thingy, so if you guys wanna send me an intake i can run some tests on it. lmao. i'd even be willing to drill all the holes and stuff to do what rbob suggests. send me one before the 10th of september and ill do the tests the next day!! cant promise ill return it, ill probably sell it and buy some aluminum and a mig welder and make my own damn intake.



its my raindance

 

No You see here moron, Some of use actually want cars that are reliable and where purpose built for daily use.

Want to race? Take a look at my stable of cars Tommy boy. I'd eat your little Camaro for lunch. Its not always about HP, not even close- unless you are wet behind the ears.

Heck, want to AutoX race againsts my little V6 Camaro- I'll eat you for lunch with a whopping 165hp. That's what I thought, You just got an eye opener. Savons sales eyewash and Aspirin so you can see clearly and be openminded.
-----------

TO the subject- I will say again,"its a great design and I would buy one right now if it were aluminum".

I have even built my own design (not to market and sell though, Just a one off for myself)about two years ago because I feel the need for better flow over the stock intake.

 

My stable of hotrods (not all of my vehicle though)

'68 Vette on street tires in picture- 540 RWHP 10.89 sec 1/4 (this is my garage queen- the camaro was built to sit in traffic and comute the family around.

The wifes Camaro- yes its her daily driver, but it will stop 60-0 in 100ft and pulls a 1.07g on STREET TIRES

And my '67 MiniCooper S.

Want to play Tom, Are you open minded yet?

 

alan or i have not posted temps on the trueleo intake...... only his intake. i am trying to get the engine back in tonight, and every night this week, but i gotta do it myself, cause my help bailed on me. i might be able to get the car running in enough time to get down there this weekend to do the temp thing. okay no test and tune, so we go bracket racing!!!!!! as long as i can get a run in or 2 before hand i will be fine. the car will turn consistent numbers, just got to find out what numbers she runs now...... 9.?????

oh yea i got to get the disc from walmart tonight if i can, so i may be able to post pics tomm.....
when i pulled the old clutch out, it came out in like 10 pieces, 8 of which were the clutch plate. the flywheel side was good yet, but the other side, had no pad left and the springs were falling out or broken in there. cost me atleast .125 seconds each run. da** thing was slipping all the way down the track....

 

yea alan i am not running the 11.5:1 on this motor, most of the parts will go to this engine for now, but will later be transferred to the aluminum bowtie block that is the block that will be taken all out..... can you say 300 plus horsies. oh yea that will take the 3.4 stroke and bore and still have room to bore more yet out of it....

 

This is one thing I did notice and wonder about... I notice now one commented on this point yet! The walls of the steel tubing used to create the intake are much thinner then the stock aluminum...

Hey Francis what thickness is the steel? Can you get a thickness reading off that stock intake I sent you as well? I would use mine, but we polished the original and ported it!

So you experts out there how does the thickness effect the equation?

 

I'm open minded. Not because you showed a me a pics of someone's sacked out Vette though. I was open minded before I even stumbled on this pitiful, ignorance filled thread.

Also Dean, I thought we were talking about F-bodies. Shall I get out my little list of MY other toys? How about keeping the whose-dick-is-bigger B.S. to the PM's. Hmm?


Doward, NO one has measured the air charge at the head/intake flange yet. That is the information I'm waiting for from Raydar. It really doesn't matter how hot the intake gets...if it doesn't do a good job of transferring that heat to the air. And we all know steel doesn't transfer heat as well as aluminum. I think it will be a wash, inlet air temp wise. But the data doesn't exist yet. I agree that Francis should be all over this. If it were MY product, and I had read this **** poor thread, I'd have thermocouples all over the inside of that intake, and post the data here to educate this sorry V-6 board.

 

well said shannon.

i think maybe 1/8" at most.
ya know who cares if the intake gets hot, as long as the air going through the intake isn't getting affected that much.

now for another point, no matter what you use, even if it is a thermal plastic with terrific heat resistance, the air is gonna warm up a little bit til it gets to the engine, so you guys looking to get a perfect intake, please hold your breath til someone comes up with one for our cars.......
til then i will be whooping up on you all, and when someone comes up with one, i will still be whooping up on you all, cause i will be getting one of the better intakes.
you all are prolly wondering how i will be doing that! well i'll tell you, cam, heads, and lift

yea dean we all know about your deadly autocross camaro(wife's daily driver), i applaud you for that, but i want straight line performance. couple my rat motor with your wife's chasis, and you got a very deadly auto cross car.

 

I never said "All the heat is coming from the AC compressor", or even that it was responsible for any of the difference. I ASKED because it was relevant to the test, and needed to be considered. If it had no effect (or the AC was off), fine...but I know how hot that bracket can get from a running AC compressor, too. For a proper test, the temp of the AC compressor at the bracket should be considered. Its not just a bolt, there is a large spacer on the bracket that could soak up heat from the AC. For all the scientist wannabes' on this site, you sure leave a lot of holes in your "research". With the given information, nothing new was proven.

No one is questioning laws of thermodyndamics, just how relevant the difference in temp will be. You're the only one trying to "battle" about anything, and rather badly I might add. Aluminum and steel don't shed heat at the same rate. I think everyone here agrees with that statement. Given a choice, aluminum would be a better material to use; again, no argument. All I really want to know (as do most people on this thread) is will the net gain be worth the cost and trouble to swap the intake, which has already been proven on other vehicles such as Raydar's. The whole argument about the sensors is just ridiculous, though. There isn't a single sensor on the engine that attaches directly to the upper intake; you have the TPS and IAC that attach to the (aluminum) throttle body, but thats it. If touching a steel intake, through a gasket, is too much heat, well then we probably need to all throw away our iron heads, too, since they are heating up the lower intake and might damage something

Since we have so many closet engineers and physicists on this site, maybe someone can answer this question for me: if a steel upper intake can cause such havoc with its slightly higher air temps over an aluminum one, how is it that cars with low boost, non-intercooled superchargers and turbos don't have the same problems? The air temperatures are MUCH hotter, not just a few degrees...yet people still use these setups, and make more power while still retaining good reliability and driveability. Even intercooled, the air intake temps are far higher than normal. Sure, its a lot more power, but its also a lot more heat. In the end, if there are no driveability or reliability problems, and it makes more power, does it even matter what the temp difference is?

That is all the arguing I am going to do over this; for the rest, I'll let the numbers speak for themselves.

 

A) I figured it would, and will fabricate a new bracket when the time comes.

B and C) No one is debating what material is superior for the application, only the relevance of the difference. Seeing as how no one is going to produce an aluminum intake that does away with the severe bend to go into the runners (to me me a far more important consideration than the material itself, and the only reason I haven't just built an upper to use the stock runners like everybody else is doing), that part of the debate is pointless.

 

i dont believe i have ever met anyone with more stupid arrogance than u in my life. you do realize that you are claiming to be able to triple the output of this little engine without forced inductio right? even if you are somehow able to get that engine to push out 300 hp, you will end up spending more to keep it running than it will cost you to build it. i cant imagine you would be able to run any form of pump gas in that car with that compression ratio and not have it run like crap. hope you can find cheap jet fuel in j'ville. and for what? just to say you did? so you can race it? and beat what? any moderately modified v-8 would still crush you like a bug. if i want 300 ponies that bad i would just spend the money and drop in an ls1 and have plenty of room to go up when needed.

i believe your perception of power is a little distorted as earlier you claim to have 250 at the wheels now and then say that the big compression engine isnt even built yet. so which is it? both? you will continue to **** people off with your outrageous(albeit completely inconsistant) claims with absolutely no proof of anything and many excuses as to why u cant prove it.

also...

who is actually running this intake on a n/a 2.8? i only hear about turbos and 3.4s.

 

hey, if i wanted to drive a v-8 i would spend the money to get the mustang down here from mom's house, but i don't i wanna build up this 6 more. you can think what you want, but any time you want to see it, just get ahold of me while you are in the area, i will take you on base to where the car is sitting righ now with the engine out of it, and show you it. speaking of, i got to go and get ready to finish up the prep to put the engine back in.

you are wasting time and space on this thread for temperature numbers.


any time you wanna run, as they say, jus bring it!

by the way i am running it on a 2.8 N/A car...... for now.....(can you say aluminum bowtie block)

 

just had a thought.

Francis, I know you are sending a new promchip with your intake to the fiero guys. Did you do a dyno test with the intake, but w/o the prom chip. If so, what was its results?


Are you also offering the promchip with the fbody intakes? 2.8 and 3.1 ecms since they are two different types of chips.

 

very good point...

 

Yes he does send a chip if you choose. i haven't gotten mine cause i need to send him some datalogging information, and i can't datalog cause i don't know how or have a laptop yet!!!!

 

wow yeah i think we all can, but i think we can also all say you AREN'T runing an aluminum bowtie block.

you dropped $3k on an aluminum block so you can swap it out for a iron block 3.4?
i dont see how it can be possible for one person to be full of so much bull****. please grow up, excercise a little independence from your parents, and come back when you can restrain yourself from spreading falsehoods at every turn.

please. im not saying this to be an ***, if i were trying to be an ***, lets just say i wouldnt last more than one post on this board. im saying this for your own good, for my own good, for the good of pretty much everyone here. some newbie might come by and read some of your outlandish claims and think "oh sweet, that means with my 200% bigger throttle body ill be making 1231352135 horsepower, just like him!!", no one appreciates your exaggerations, and they dont help anyone either. not even you. thats right, we arent stupid, some of us are actually a good deal smarter and more knowledgeable than you are(not speaking for myself, i find it difficult to accuratly compare myself to other people over the internet. most people are a lot smarter in real life than they are on the internet). we arent going to fall for it, and it doesnt make you seem any better to the rest of us, quite the opposite really. i would love to give you a [third] chance, but i think you need to work a bit to get there.


this intake wont see a dime of my money, i cannot in any way justify spending $650 for a [steel] intake, when the stock middle can easily be ported to outperform this steel contraption, and creating a new upper takes very little entreprenueral effort. just some aluminum fab skills and common sense(and easily researchable knowledge on runner length).

if you guys can prove that steel has absolutly no detrimental effects over aluminum, i would be glad to reccomend this to other people, but until then its still an unfinished product to me.

 

I wonder if Fred Gerle has read any of this thread.

 

ah you beat me to it, its getting old all the bs this guy spouts

 

i thought those pictures were supposed to be up? where are they?

 

has anybody thought about a solution to the possible manifold temp problem? or is everybody just too busy fighting uselessly?
If it's an issue run some metal tubing around the runners and maybe even the plenum body, then tie that tubing into the tb coolant line, if your that worried its a easy fix, right?
By run i mean take some tubing cut it in half an weld it to the intake in some reasonable fashion, not just wrap it around the part.

 

or how about just making it out of aluminium, 100 times less work, and alot smarter

 

cause im not building it, an im trying to think of a real world solution for the paranoid people who may still want to buy a unique product, but have concerns

 

unique is the word for it, so peope are supposed to pay 625 for something that would have to be modified to work properly?

how about the maker just stops trying to save a few bucks, and makes it out of alumnium, theres a ton of people here who would buy it if it was, including myself

 

assuming it doesn't work properly, again im not making it, i don't agree with the price either buddy, take my suggestion or not, don't care, and maybe it's something the manufactor can build into it, think of that aspect? but i still think it needs to be proven that it can cause any harm, think of the cooling system as a performance upgrade to a performance upgrade, like a intercooler added to a aluminum radiator (ok maybe the ALUMINUM radiator is a bad example,lol)

 

sorry if i came across brash, nothing was directed towards you personally, i just think for the price we shoul;dn't even be needing to complain, i cannot understand how 625 is even in the equation, maybe 400 tops.

sorry if i came across like an ***

 

Persanity, I respect you for giving suggestion and please don't take this as an attack, only mean it as factual info.
To tap the TB coolant lines into the intake would mean that the coolant would heat it up more rather than cool it down. Most coolant (on stock radiator cars) is being pumpd through at a minmum of 160* on a cool day with a lower therm and as hot as 220* on a factory therm and a hot day. My intake right now runs at 128*(at the TB neck) being aluminum intake manifolds and no TB coolant lines attached to the TB.

The difference in intake charge heat for a turbo motor and a NA motor are different senerio's- WHY?- Because the NA motor suck air and the less heat of the air the more dense of a fuel mixture, thus more power. Cooler intakes can make the enigine suck a more dense mixture.

Turbos on the other hand are merely blowing much more air into the engine than it could ever possibly suck on its own regardless if the turbo forces hot air or cold. Now of course a colder dense mixture on a turbo will produce more power and less predetonation than a hot air charged turbo application (aka intercoolers [hey, they are aluminum last I checked- for a reason])

So yes the intake will perform much better if it were aluminum.

Granted, this steel intake with slightly hotter air will in fact work better on a NA motor than the factory aluminum one, I just don't want the heat it will radiate under the hood in my car for daily use. I have a hard enough time keeping EGR valves in this car because the current engine bay heat kills them. G()d only knows what else will be burning up and causing problems if the temps run hotter under there- I don't want to find out. These are the most tempermental engine bays with all the ECM crap and heat. I do not have any problems with the sensors going out on any other one of my vehicles that are ECM controled- only this little motor that runs a hot engine bay. It seems I am contantly changing one sensor or another and I keep this car top notch with good AC Delco electronics, not crqapy autozone aftermarkets.

 

Naft and Kretos, I just got sh*t on by two other members on anther post for saying the same exact thing.

Thanks for the support there Project! I can't stand the nonsense this guy posts. Obviously from Naft and Kretos statement, they can't stand it either so I am not alone.

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=318249

 

i am not running a bowtie block yet, now if you all even knew what the he11 you were talking about, you would know that the bowtie block is already larger than a 3.4. what is the stroke of a 3.4? bore size? yea that is what i thought... now on to the camera.... camera is sitting right next to me on my desk as i type......... second of all, you all trying to bash me cause i don't have a laptop or computer at the house down here, who cares. i will get to the freggin pics when i can, not when it is most appropriate for you all. i don't live my life for any one of you, the world doesn't revolve around you. my life revolves around the navy and my car. why my car, cause i am always having to do something to it............... you all say i am not at 275-300hp, who cares what you think, cause really i don't nor do i wanna smell the hydrogen sulfide coming from your mouths(hydrogen sulfide is produced from decaying fecal matter) i know what i got, and i know what it can do, i have stated it before, don't believe me, come to the track, i'll open the whoopass jug for you.
by the way dean, don't start with the whole corvette thing, cause i already told you once, you come down with it(YOUR corvette, and we'll go to the strip and i take your 10,000 from you, and the pink for that car wit a FORD!


here's one for all you BASHERS:save your trash talk for the track let's let the vehicles talk in this case........
mustang, camaro, i don't care, doesn't matter to me, if the camaro can't then the mustang can.
just bring it!!!!!!

 

and many people have rolled onto a dyno knowing ther are gonna pull 350-400 and barely get 200. quit spittin number until you have proof. and its hard to race you at the track when your super stang is 1000 miles away and your other-worldly camaro doesnt even run.

 

Well on the porting... not sure you can really port it enough to out flow the steel one, then you ahve to get everything to all line up. I did port the crap out of mine, but to get it perfect and smooth takes alot of effort and to get the bottom and heads to all match up... the hardest part is the fact that there is gasket match porting, but there is not much room to take it much further then that. I have had my car with a further then gasket match port and it did not make enough of a difference.

So I was looking at getting the whole intake system extrude honed. This way I could have them bolt it all together and be sure the runner porting all lined up perfect and was maximized. By hand you just cant get it all level, perfect and maximized... Then they told me they would only port out 1mm in diameter max for $600.00 I was like what the crap! Only 1 mm! then they said that would clean up the trashy casting and would increase flow 25%. Which was more then enough! That further honing would cause me street drivability concerns, blah, blah... would risk a blow out and the car would be unstreetable.

Sooo... $600 for a new better flowing new intake with less restrictive bends versus $600 for 1mm honing... So for the 600... I think this intake is a safer more sure bet with much higher flow potential!

Quote:

if you guys can prove that steel has absolutly no detrimental effects over aluminum, i would be glad to reccomend this to other people, but until then its still an unfinished product to me.

Well we will as soon as its installed over the next few days! One way or the other we plan to have this thing done next week. I ahve time off from work and plan to focus on the intake!

 

i agree with shannon.
now on to the whole thing about the camaro not running,

it will be running by sunday i just got to get the engine back in the car and hook all the electronics up before it is running again. should be roadable(full exhaust not headers only) by the end of next week....
will be racing saturday evening if i can get everything back to gether by then, if not, then tues or thurs. gotta reserve time with maxi muffler to get it done. by the way the guy doing the mufflers and exhaust's name is brian.
any other questions. still dont' believe me, ask troy, or francis, or even karl(ked)

oh yea mustang should be down here by christmas, and running by febuary at latest(gotta replace fuel lines and brakes, and front end cause of a tree last year when it fell on the garrage!!!!
choke on that!!!!

 

my cooling idea was at night when i was stoned, lets tryin during the day, how about suttin like this...
get some extra parts together and build a custom top piece for the plenum, something that has each runner bolted seperatly to the middle plenum instead of welded to a plate, then run those into something like a 6 part header collecter with a tb on top, then cut a hole in the hood add a air scoop on the tb or get a air scoop for the hood itself, get nice cool outside air, no stuffy under hood ****, might have to use something like a motorcycle air filter if you put a airscoop right on the tb, but that shouldnt be a breathing issue should it? anyway, itd look mad max as hell without a hood on, and that idea should allow it to be made out of aluminum or steel since its been addressed air charge temp is what really matters and obviously with outside air is cooler, hope somebody like that idea

 

actualy, you cant mount the runners individualy, unless you staggart the mounting tabs, be easier to use a plate that mounts ontop of the stock mid section,

 

do us all a favor, and just shut up.

when you have numbers, then come brag, until then, refer to what i just said earlier ^^^

 

dean, i fully support what you;ve said in this thread, cold hard facts will win this, you and alan have already posted some, and people ignore them.

personally i think this thread should be locked until francis decides he wants to back up his product, or shannon can get some facts to back up the intake.

i love the design, just hate the material.

as far as blueracr/wildponies, hes just plain full of ****