Gumby

I bet your confusing them or they are confused when you say alcohol injection which is used in dragsters.

alcohol injection for turbo's is different.

why most just use water. if you pushing thing so much you need injection, the few hp losses using water don't matter.

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

this thing ran an methanol injection system to cool the incoming charge and to prevent detonation. this truck had a seperate tank for the methanol and a nozzle in the inlet of the intercooler. ive worked on the truck( we made new turbo manifolds for it).its just that noone can explian why its bad here.And ive got my uncle telling me to use it,and hes been building engines everything from street small blocks to 5,000 hp top fuel engines na/supercharged/turboed whatever for many years, so its liek wtf who is right here.the way he explained it is it was such a small amount of methanol,that it wouldnt be like trying to run on it, but it would be effective in cooling the air temp,and preventing detonation.
like i said noone here as said anythign about why its bad or wont work,not to mention ive seen it work
edit ----------------------
gumby he said hes run it on high boost reg cars with high compression

Gumby

no one needs to say the obvious.

I think you on your own here, if he says use it, use it.

But Plz take a video of you injection meth into your 60* turbo.
You can either prove us all wrong or have a video for insurance.

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

im thinking u guys think im gonna inject a ton of methanol into the motor but im not going to were talking tiny amounts and only at high boost levels and only at the track.but whatever, as far as im concerend everything my uncles has taught me or told me to do to something as never been wrong.anyways if he is wrong its no big deal.it be a leason learned,and an exscuse to drop in the small block
im here to learn anyway,but since noone can tell me why its a bad idea then wtf

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

wow for somethign thats a bad idea there is an aful alot of stuff online that points right to using a stright methanol over meth/water or alc/water with lots of power gains and 90%+ efficency at cooling at boost levels over 12 psi.
+ the detonation resistance of 120+ octane gasoline

so maybe u guys need to look **** up again

Gumby

look up what, I never heard of anyone using meth for injection
thats what it comes down to. If its good, you hear about it.

To many years in the Buick world n never heard of anyone using it.
Might be some top secret performance mod you just let lose, who knows.

but you can find info on the web to back up anything if you look.

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

well thats what i mean im finding good things about it and finding good things but i cant find anything bad, besides running to much and flooding the motor, and if ur ignition system isnt good enough it wont light the mixture,but if mixed in the right amount there shouldnt be anyproblem with it,from what i can find most ppl run window washing fluid,mostly cause its cheap,prolyl what ill end up using anyway for the most part caus emeth is exspensive, and i dont think my uncle is gonna like me grabbing fuel outa his drums for the dragster all the time lol


but alls i was asking for really is for somone point me twards some proven bad things about using striaght methanol over meth/water mix

and the reason u have prolly never heard of anyone using striaght meth is cause its not like u can walk into a store and buy a few gallons of it

The_Raven

http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/techpage.html

http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/turbo/turbopage.html

EVERYWHERE I've looked, it ONLY mentions rubbing alcohol, and/or water injection.

BTW there will be NO power loss with straight water injection, if there was, no one would use it. The idea here here is power gain, not loss.

Please get some video of this.

I bet you believe in the mothball myth too.

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

u say it wont work raven, yet u have no proof of anything staing that it will blow up or not work, besdies i think im gonna lean twards listing to somone who builds everything from 300-5,000 hp engines. he prolly knows more then all of us here

and i never said water/alc injection dosent work, but with pure meth the gains will be bigger and able to run more boost, then with water/alc

Doward

Try it, on a dyno, and see.

Then try straight water, and see.

Post back the results.

We can all argue back and forth all day and all night, but in the end, it's the one with REAL FACTUAL PROOF one way or another, that will end this debate.

btw, my own understanding, (never actually done it) is that -

Water = extra cooling in the combustion chamber, keeping detonation down = can run extra boost

Meth = extra octane, so that the fuel/air mixture is less suseptible to detonation.

I know guys that have run straight water, and a couple guys on FS run straight Meth, with no problems.

I'm being told Meth will eat seals that are not compatible with it, though!

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

yes meth will destroy seals/engine oil, but not with the amount that would be used with an injection system.besides meth acting like super high octane gas,meth is very good at cooling the mixture.i still havent decided were to spray though, either at the inlet to the intercooler,or im going to spray right infront/behind the tb, the intercooler will prolly be more the enough for cooling the air charge but the extra detonation resistance of the meth should allow me to run more boost,then with water inj.or so it shoudl in therory.i am swaping to the small journal v8 rods, and im more then likely gonna drop my cr below 9-1.and i still need to get a new cam mine has to much overlap to be anygood with a turbo

The_Raven

http://www.v6z24.com/jbodyforum/viewtopic.php?t=78195

That's 89jyturbo, he also has an F-body and is on this site.

He shows that water/alcohol injection is good for over 20 HP and 30 ft/lbs of torque on his combination.

Food for thought

Doward

IF you're running the stock 2.8 still, you already have forged rods (get them re-pressed, with ARP bolts, after you polish them ) and your compression ratio is already 8.9:1

As far as teh cooling goes, water will work better, simply due to its higher specific heat... it's not that it trys to 'cool' the mixture, it absorbs a TON of the heat in the combustion chamber. Not so much cooling it, as preventing it from getting as hot... clear as mud?

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

im about 10-1 now so i have to drop the cr back down,im just swaping the rods,for added strength,the small journal v8 rod is supposedly alot stronger,and its not gonna cost me anything since i have a set laying here,just gota do the lil bit of machine work to them,doward anyone make a thicker then stockhead gasket for our engines?

if the meth injection isnt enough to cool the charge the 25 shot of nitrous will be.and i decided to spray the meth at the intercooler inlet instead of at the tb,hard part is gonna be finding the right jet size to put int he nozzle to have the right amount of meth injected

Doward

FWD 96+ head gaskets are .060" thick, instead of our .040"

The_Raven

So you're going to spray the Methanol at the IC inlet, so that it cane come out of suspension, as it hits the tubes of the IC, and puddle in the bottom of it, and for the small amount that makes it through, it will puddle in the twists of the tubing between the IC and the TB, and when you get a small back fire through the intake, or enough heat to ignite that puddled fuel, you get and nice expanded IC and tubing.....

You know what, I want three cameras on this, one from the inside and two from opposite angles on the outside. This should make a great video.

madathlon

Id like to see this one.. Sounds like its going to make a real big bang when the meth collects and get swallowed.. U say how.. when the puddle of meth in the bottom of the IC get it the piont of pull off.. ( when large spatter ) get pick up and enters the combustion chamber and it whole thing goes into hydrostatic lock up.. ( seen this happen on race boat when the ACH/METH fuel does not vaporize and suddenly you find out that you can not compress a liquid at and any RPM... )

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

#1 the amoutn of meth injected wont be sufficent for it to puddle cause meth evaporates to fast
#2 if i had a backfire even without the meth it would do dammage ( nos system)
#3 if it blows the **** up "I DONT GIVE A ****" i have a 500+ hp sbc for the car sitting on the engine stand(and 2 bbc's sitting in storage at work)
#4 ill only use meth injection at the track so if u figure 13 sec pass meth injection kicks on at over 12 psi,ill only be injecting meth say 10 seconds for the whole run,wont use meth injection on the street caus eboost levels will be 9 psi max(prolly drive around with 5-7 psi)

Naft

injecting before the intercooler kinda makes the intercooler worthless . . . if the meth is gonna cool down the intake charge, it will cool it down a set amount based on the amount of meth your injecting. since intercoolers can only cool to ambient, and the closer to ambient the charge is the less efficient they are, it only makes sense to inject the meth after the intercooler.

ive had enough experience with flamable vapors/liquids of all kinds to tell you that the meth will puddle in the intercooler, unless you hardly inject anything. yes it will evaporate fairly quickly, but if you tried to run 2 passes in a row you will get some serious puddling. not that that should be an issue anyways, because injecting before the intercooler is just plain silly.

TJ986

i got that from Devils Own Alcohol Injection

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

dosent matter now anyway the dam intercooler isnt gonna fit
in the car gota get a smaller one

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

woot i ditrched the small twin turbos,just won a buick regal turbo on ebay that im gonn use instead to start with,to keep it simple.

if i get it by wensday i should get it on the car over the weekend.lol its gonna be a busy weekend swapping ou tthe 4:10's for 4:56's whole new ex system(3 inch with spintechs)and installing the turbo

hey how much will the motor load up with fuel if i use a to atmosphere bov

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

doward what is the flow and fp of the stock pump
im about to get a 4-1 vortech fmu need to know if the stock pump will work,gonna run between 5-7 psi to start

Gumby

If not, its gonna cost $130 + to get a better one.

could always just get an adjustable reg and boost as needed.

I know when I talked to holley about their dry nos kit, they said it used a return line block off switch. That would boost fuel pressure, only when under nos.

so I would assume a stocker could handle it, just might need to reg the fuel better.

though if you have an older pump, you might wanna get new so its fresh.

combo of better FP and a adjustable reg could go into $200+
stocker pump n reg could stay under $100

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

im getting the fmu for 29$'s if i need a diff ratio disk thats another 15$ so its cheaper then a fp reg,an adj fp reg would work but i dont want to change fp at non boost conditions,if i have to ill swap in a v8 pump

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

most of my parts have come in
cam
buick regal turbo
fmic
boost controller
hks style bov
vortech fmu
msd btm
heads (ported but not milled this time)
thicker head gaskets



just waiting on a few various parts now
ex tubing
hi flow cat
4" spintech cat back
and all my intercooler tubing

so this weekend im going to pull my curent heads and drop the new heads on / swap out the cam and pull the oil pan to weld in a fiting for the oil return for the turbo. Get the msd installed.And get the front cross member notched for the downpipe.


hopefully ill have have time during the week to mount the fmic and vortech fmu,and mock up the turbo set up so i can start making the turbo manifold on the bench


if all goes well this weekend and next week ill be looking to finish the install by 2-3 weeks from now

pontiac2.8L

hey i have a 87 pontiac firebird 2.8L and i want to put turbo in it can i
even put it in my car

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

Yes. But it will have to be custom made. There are no kits available...yet.