Ok, $500 isn't didly to work with, but it's what I have to get started (I plan on a serious build later, but not for a while). So I need to get the most out of what I use. Aluminum rockers, beehive springs and unfortunately a rebuild are all out of the question. So here's what I came up with.

A) 3400 heads ($100-junkyard) w/ mild porting ($10-self), .04" head gaskets ($25-ebay), dished 2.8 pistons ($30/set-junkyard) & rings ($15-ebay), stock cam (ugh), sheetmetal intake ($100-self), 22 lb/hr injectors ($30-junkyard) and an ostrich for real-time tuning ($175-moates), $485 total. Should get 10.1 cr, 210hp @5,500 and 200ft/lb @5,000. The custom tunnel ram's what makes it shine, if valvefloat didn't set in so early I could 'theoretically' get ~225hp @ 6,750.

B) 3400 heads ($100-junkyard) w/ mild porting ($10-self), .04" hd gaskets ($25-ebay), stock pistons w/ rings ($15-ebay), crane 251241 cam ($205), sheetmetal intake ($100-self), 22 lb/hr injectors (25 lb/hr @ 60psi) ($30-junkyard), datalog w/my laptop but no ostrich. I can borrow my buddy's stuff to burn some chips. $485 total. Should get 13.59 cr but the cam will bleed off enough pressure to be premium friendly... here in colorado (ONLY race gas at lower altitude). 280hp @ 7,000 and 220ft/lb @6,000.

C) Stock heads milled to 45 cc's ($50) w/ lots of porting (iorn ones are crap) ($10-self), .04" hd gaskets ($25-ebay), stock pistons w/ rings ($15-ebay), crane 250801 cam ($205), sheetmetal intake ($100-self), 22 lb/hr injectors ($30-junkyard), datalog and buddy's burning equip, $435 total. Should get 9.41 cr, 200 hp @ 6,000 and 200 ft/lb @ 4,500.

So what sounds best? There might be valve clearance issues with b & c (especially b) so I might need valve pockets cut and I'd definately be pressing my luck with b, but it would be fun while it lasted.

 

if you are planning on a rebuild eventually and just want the best bang for your buck now i would def go with a nitour kit you can get every thing you need for under $500. and if oyu do end up blowing the motor your gonna rebuild it anyway.

 

Dont forget custom length pushrods since I assume you are using FWD heads on a & b. As well, either using stock FWD manifolds with custom y-pipe, or making your own headers and custom y-pipe.

 

Finally the server's back up...

I though about nitrous, but I'll need most of this stuff for my next build so I might as well get them now. I'm going to use the pushrods that came with the fwd heads so customs aren't neccecary (unless there's a height difference between the fwd and rwd lifters I'm not aware of), fwd manifolds with custom y pipe then turbo headers later.

 

There is. Roller vs flat

 

Yes, but I believe the lifter foot/roller to plunger height is the same in both. Haven't measured them to be sure though.

 

Sounds like you should just put the FWD engine in your car. Would be a lot less work

I would love to see a sheetmetal intake. Are you just talking about doing the upper part? We've had a member do that before, but he keeps getting himself banned. lol.

 

Heh, probably would be easier to swap in a fwd engine, but the starter's on the wrong side. I measured the lifters and the plunger height is different which means another $150 for custom pushrods. I'm fabbing up an entire manifold which means -lots- of welding. Maybe I should make this out of pastic instead, sheetmetal will warp too easy.

 

To put the FWD engine in, just redrill the starter bolts. I know people who have done it to put RWD 3.1's in their Isuzu troopers. The troopers have a FWD starter config with a RWD drivetrain! You'll need to transfer the wiring too.

 

Custom pushrods would be easier since I'm tearing it down anyway. Probably cheaper too. Or I could use a gen 2 cam and switch to a DIS setup... but then I'd need to modify the block to use the rollers. What trans do the troopers use?

 

This has been covered multiple times. Do a quick search.

The easy way to do aluminum heads is to run a DIS FWD block. Intake and all. If not, you'll have to chop the intake to make the distributor fit behind the intake as the GenII FWD blocks are DIS and don't have room.

You cannot run roller lifters in a RWD block. I might be wrong and there is probably an exception, but the 98+ FWD blocks come with special bosses that let you run the roller lifter guide plates. They won't work unless you have the bosses. it would be way easier to drill two holes for the starter and then drop the entire FWD block in.

I'm not sure about the tranny setup on the troopers. They were all 4x4 so its either a T5 with external transfer case, or an all in one unit.

 

Hence modifying the block like I said. Too much fabrication to be done, although there was one guy with a fiero on 60degreev6.com that converted a flat tappet block to a roller setup without touching the block by hacking up a set of sbc roller lifters. Crower also makes solid rollers that work with flat tappet blocks, but that's not the route I'm going.

I'm making a custom manifold so I don't need to cut up a DIS intake to make it fit. Stock ones are too restrictive anyway.

 

Restrictive intakes suck.

So you plan on running the RWD 2.8 block, hydrolic flat tappet cam/lifters, 3400 heads, custom intake, and stock MAF based ECM?

Oh, another thing (sorry) your 3400 heads wont work on a 2.8 piston. I know you intend to dish them, but it might be worth it to put the 3.4 crank/rods in your 2.8 with 3.1 pistons. Check my sig.

 

Yep, but combo b&c would be solid flat tappet and I'm using a '165 w/ analog maf instead of the stock pos '870.

3400 heads work with the dished pistons that came in 2nd gen 2.8's (combo A). Whereas 3400 heads with flat top pistons (combo B) probably wouldn't work so I'd have valve pockets cut. I'm going to stick with the 2.8 crank for now, maybe the 3.4 crank/3.1 pistons on my next build.

 

Pistons and heads.

RWD/FWD 2.8 iron head - flat top piston
RWD 3.1 iron head - dished .100" piston
FWD 3.1 alum head - dished .200" piston
RWD 3.4 iron head - dished .100" piston
FWD 3400 alum head - dished .200" piston

You can run the RWD 3.1 iron head dished pistons on a FWD aluminum head. Consequence, really high compression! Stock iron head is about 50cc and the aluminum is 30 something cc. You can also run the RWD 2.8 flat top piston on an aluminum head, but you have to mill it down for valve relief. Even so, it ends up being 12.xx+ CR. Not advisable. Make sure you do your research before you attemp this.

 

I could only use the 3.1 pistons with a 3.4 crank and I'd like to stick with the 2.8 crank for the better bore/stroke ratio. Besides, using the dished pistons that came in fwd alum head 2.8's with .04" head gaskets and the 2.8 crank (combo A) I'll get a much better quench height.

Alum head combustion chamber is actually 26.4cc's and iorn is 48.5cc's. With flat top pistons, alum heads and .04" head gaskets (combo B) the mechanical c/r is 13.59/1, yikes! But by using crane's 251241 cam with 6 deg of retard the dynamic c/r goes down to 9.9/1 by backpumping extra air into the intake manifold at low rpm.

9.9/1 is still too high at sea level, but up here in colorado the dynamic c/r becomes closer to 8/1 which is fine on pump gas. So all is fine with whatever combo I choose.

So which one sounds best? Right now I'm leaning twoards combo A.

 

Get 3400 heads, the chamers are 27cc. If you use a 3.1 crank and pistons (stock size RWD) and stock size gaskets you will get 11.74:1 at sea level. I know because I have a set . Get '00 or later heads with the casting 170 or 487, they have bigger valves and ports. I got mine off ebay for $25 and $45 shipping, I was the only bidder. The other pair at the time I was bidding were started at $50.

If you want, I have a set of .030 over Keith Black hypereutectic pistons for
sale and also a set of FWD pistons (stcok size) still pressed on the rods I could let go. I bought a rotating assembly to put the heads on the 3.1, but scored a 3.4 and don't need them anymore. I'm keeping the crank as a core for a rebuild I'm doing for another member, but I could piont you in the right direction for a cheap re-groung crank. Don't use your stock cam if you are doing a re-build, Delta cams will do a re-grind for around $100 including new flat tappet lifters ($59 for just the cam).

You do realize you need to fab a DIS to use any aluminum top end because the lower manifold will not clear the distributor (unless you build a complete manifold).

No a FWD isn't that easy, if you move the starter over, you also have to move the oil filter. The motor mounts need to be custom, along with a few other things. Unless you want to get a tubular k member, stick with the RWD block and convert it to a hybrid using the 3x00 internals and heads.

 

-Blue1989RS said the same thing.

I'm building a complete custom manifold, no need for the stock lower manifold. What's the specs on the kb pistons? Are they hypereutectic (I assume) or just eutectic?

I plan on getting a solid cam anyway, no point in wasting money on the stock one. $100 for the cam & lifters is a good deal, though.
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Oops, you already said they're hypereutectic. Duh!

 

I'm curious to see your plan for this, especially the injector mounts.

 

HAHAHAHA, I find it really funny when I see "planned" threads like this, with prices for each step, especially ones that are rediculously low....and on top of that, absolotly no mention of gaskets or bearings, you will need new gaskets anytime you take parts off the engine, especially head and lower intake gaskets. Bearings will be needed when swapping in new (to the engine) rods and pistons, might even want new mains, or cam bearings.

What about the oil pump?

No mention of exhaust modifications here, which ARE needed to use the FWD heads.

Custom lower intake for these engines is nothing like it is for a SBC, since the valve cover gasket sealing surface is also part of the lower intake, and clearance around the pushrods and rockers is needed.

You earlier mentioning of using the FWD pushrods shows a lack of hard research on this, since even the genII pushrods, which use a flat tappet cam are not the correct length for the genIII heads and rockers, due to differening ratios.

What about hoses? You won't be able to use your existing hoses, for coolant or fuel, vacuum?. Speaking of fuel, what about the fuel rail, FPR, fuel lines. etc?

Then there's cables and brackets for the throttle, alternator, power steering (Have A/C?). The bolt pattern in the end of the heads is quite different then the RWD counter part.

Just as a real world example in performing pretty much the same transition, I started with a 2.8L S-15 Jimmy. I budgeted $1000 CDN to perform essentially a rebuild of the engine, and turbocharging my truck. I know, pretty lofty goal, but I thought I had most of what I need before I started, and I sort of did. The problem was that when I opened the engine up, I found it was a .030 over rebuild, so I had to order pistons instead of the ones I already had. I kept finding small things I needed along the way, so that old adage of "What ever budget you think you have in mind to build that engine, double it. I ended up spending about $2200 CDN to build and install the Franken60 (My turbo 3.2L hybrid).

Just don't lie to yourself. It sounds like you have little hands on experiance with these engines and will be a steep learning curve as you go through, there will be parts needed that you didn't account for now, many parts that you didn't account for. Luckily all of my maching was free, due to my grandfather having a mill and lathe in his garage, and also having friends in the engine building buisness.

 

I said something about it. But thats because I talked to you about it along time ago. As well found many people that tryed swapping manifolds around.

 

Sorry, I didn't read the thread word for word, since I was in a bit of a hurry...

Something else I wanted to mention is that the FWD block can not just be _drilled for the RWD starter", there is not enough meat to do so. It would require welding some cast peices to teh block, and even doing that would be a weak solution. For my swap I will be retaining the FWD starter position, uness the clutch interferes with it, at which point I have an idea to use the RWD starter location, but I'd have to do a lot of work to get it to work right.

 

Work's been crazy lately... anyway,

SixShooter- This isn't a 'planned thread', I'm deciding which of the three combos I came up with I want to use.

Like I said at the start of the thread I won't be doing a full rebuild right now. Replacing the gaskets is a given, that's what RTV silicone is for. Head gaskets were mentioned earler and I'll need exhaust gaskets obviously. The bearings in it are still fresh from the last rebuild, don't need to replace them. Quick and cheap, but it'll run fine 'til I do a full rebuild for a turbo project I have planned down the road. I also mentioned that I'll have custom pushrods made.

A custom manifold for this engine will certainly be complex. I mentioned earlier that I was considering making it out of plastic instead of sheetmetal because all the welding involved will warp it if I don't take my time. Custom fabrication is no prob. I can weld, bend, drill & tap up whatever brackets, lines or whatever I need.

Firstfirebird- This whole project's still in the planning stage so I haven't put much work into the manifold, but I plan on a tunnel ram similar to what's on the ramjet 502's with the injectors & fuelrail tucked under the plenum. Any word on the pistons?