Hey guys I have a few questions for you. I have a 92 3.1 Bird, and it runs like a piece of crap, so I'm trying to upgrade, what should I do, buy a remanufactured engine and add headers, exhaust, and a nice cam or just get a newer year 4th gen? I really like the 3rd gens but I'm wondering if its worth it. How much horsepower can I get with the goodies installed into my 3.1? Is it possible to get to 250 or more horses, somehow, or will it be the same as just buying a lets say 97 Bird? Thanks.

why go back to the 3.1 v6 if you going to pull the engine. i'm you could come up with farely cheap v8 swap. if you like your third gen and only want 250 hp it shouldn't cost as much as a nice 4th gen.

97 bird came with a 3800 SeriesII rated at 200hp. You can use a 3.4 shortblock in place of the 3.1 and use all your 3.1 tope end, etc. Stock it's 180hp, 225 can be had with bolt-ons/porting and if you do a 3500 top end swap (with 3400 pistons), 250 should be attainable.

If you go V8, you will also need a transmisson.

Agreed...

So can a 350 (5.7L) 4th gen engine go in a 3rd gen?

the lt1 with no problem the ls1 (346) i little mods but fit fine.

< < Heh, a 454 (7.4L) can go into a 3rd gen.....

I think that just about anything has been put into a third gen.

Humm, makes me wonder I know of a written off 95-97 Trans-Am thats been kicked up the ****...... But I love my V6!

I've done lots of v8 swaps (one was a SBC/th400 in an 86 Mustang), but am growing fond of the 60* engine. I've got 38cyls and 92 valves in my driveway (that's the ones IN the vehicles)

Hey Street, how you been? Have you given up on the TTV6?

No way, the car is almost finished. Recently received my MegaSquirt, and although I haven't installed it yet, I started painting the car LOL. Couldn't help myself, that red was getting me sick..... :barf:

Gave one of the turbo's to a friend's Eclipse which was in need, so I'm only going to be running just the one. Having one of my cousin's buddy's fab me up some headers, Y-Pipe & Down, and that's pretty much all I'm waiting on, oh, and the intercooler....

Been running the car around before I started prepping for paint, and with the fiberglass notch, hood and doors, that damn thing pulls pretty freaking hard with just the naturally aspirated 3.1....

The only other major mod that was done under the hood was the re-routing of the fuel lines, so everything looks neat and tidey now. The coil, MAP sensor are both next to the distributor, on the firewall. Unbelievable amount of room is now prevalent, and running with just the one turbo, it'll keep that unnecessary weight (the other turbo) in check....

It was rated at 160hp and 200lb/ft of tq. and you can get over 200 hp, but its gonna take some internal work. bolt ons alone wont get you there. ive got a good amount of bolt ons, and a lil bit of internal work, and i might be at 200 now. a good tune would change that though.

I won't be able to find out what they are like with iron heads because it's getting the hybrid treatment before installation. I will see if I can afford to get it on the dyno, if not then difference in track times at least.

keep the bird. upgrade her engine. weither its a v8 swap or another 60* V6s, doesn't matter. just make her fast. the only problem i have w/ 4th gen f-body is the way the engine sits. if you look at 4th gen v8 from the side you'll see about 3/4 of the engine there. about 1/4 is tucked in the by the firewall. makin her a bitch to work on if you got to access those parts. who likes to work on this?
http://inlinethumb27.webshots.com/22...425x425Q85.jpg
i rather have my camaro cuz i can actually see my tranny from the bay.

Why not split the difference? If you like the 3rd gens, then it's engine swap time! Heck, you're talking about swapping your engine for a reman unit, so what the hey?

Get yourself a 4th gen engine for your third gen. Putting in a 3.4 is a great place to start. You can drop in a long block (block and heads) 3.4 liter and put all of your 3.1 stuff back on it to start. Then you can upgrade as time goes by.

If I were you, I might even think about just doing this and then waiting for someone else (like FirstFirebird) to complete his 3400/3500 hybrid top end swap and then duplicate this setup after someone else has done all of the engineering!

I personally don't like the 4th gens from a technician's standpoint. Any car that puts half of the engine under the windshield is off my list!

They make good parts cars, though!!

Hey guys how many horses can I get from my 3.1 with a cam, headers, exhaust, turbo, and whatever else is needed, and how many horses more can I get from a 3.4 engine, which is better money wise to invest in?

3.4 will get you more horses. With a cam and turbo it all depends on what cam and how much PSI. With a turbo 300+ HP is attainable.

There's an old saying, "there's no replacement for displacement,"

I pretty much try to live by that one if possible and in your case it is possible. If you are thinking about replacing your engine then why not start out with every advantage possible?

This being the V6 forum, I say drop in a 3.4... Then add to it as time goes by...

I used to go think along the lines of "ne replacement for displacement" untill I learned of turbos.... GMs got a I4 2.0L pushing 260HP/260TQ with a turbo... thats more than the 4.0L V8 that the arura had.. and only 15HP less than the stock LT1 iirc... turbo 3.1 or turbo 3.4 is what I would do. (am actually working a 3.1 turbo setup, probably end up just using a eaton M90 from a Tbird SC..)

The "no replacement for displacement" theory works with your 2.0L four cylinder example as well. I meant it in reference to the engine family...

What's better, 2.0 I-4 turbo or a 2.4 I-4 turbo that is from the same engine family? 2.4, of course.

Which one makes more power? If you have the same compression ratio, with all of the same accessories and the same cam, the larger engine wins.

It's math, and you can't beat the math.

If you are going to mod a 60 degree V6 and you are trying to decide where to start, you should start with the 3.4 if that is the largest in your family that fits. Then you work on the turbos or whatever. You should just start with the most advantage possible, no matter what platform you are working with.

the math for the power and displacment is there, but by increasing your bore, you weaken your cyclender walls, wich then limits your compression and boost levels. Which i'm assuming is why GM chose the 2.0L over the 2.4 for boosted applications. (the shorter stroke probably had something to do with it, spooling up faster, reducing lag time.)

Nah, the 2.0 and 2.4 aren't really in the same engine family. I was just using those numbers for my example.

Think of a 305 and a 350. The 350 doesn't have weaker cylinder walls and bolth blocks are in the same family. They are not interchangeable because the cylinder thickness is based on the bore sizing when cast. This keeps them the same weight but with different bore limitations.

I don't know what family the 2.0 has, if any. I know the 2.4 is a descendant of the old 2.3 Quad 4 Oldsmobile and it is totally different. However, if I had an older Quad 4 I would seek a newer 2.4 block to start with.

I want every advantage of the engine family possible. I would not run a 305 ever because 350s and 400s are so easy to come by. I would only use a 305 as a template or a jig to align all of my V8 equipment if I were doing an engine swap. Other than that, there is no point. I would run the 305 if it was already there, but I would not keep it if it gave me one bit of problems. It would be gone fast...

The newer 2.4L is in the ecotec family, as well as the 2.0Turbo, 2.0SC'd. IIRC, they dont put the 2.2L ecotec in anything anymore. There is also the 2.4L quad ohc, old school!!

I just started looking at the engines in Saab cars... why don't we have those in other cars? (or even as crate engines, they have a 2.8DOHC with 250HP @5500 and 258TQ @ 2000 turbo of course) I want to know how much work would one of those take to fit into a third gen?

GM has sevarl DOHC 60* V6's that put out those numbers (and higher) naturally aspirated. The 3.4 DOHC was rated at 220hp IIRC, BUT if you were to switch to a FWD platform, you could keep your tranny and use a 3500 (over 200hp), or the 3900VVT (would require a ECM swap) rated at 285hp.

I dont think that 3900VVT has made it to a production unit yet. (I know about GMs other 60V6 engines, I was just pointing out that saab has a 2.8 making that power with a turbo. its more a marketing play I was getting at...