ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

Now that we're fully commited to the project, its time to get my own thread...

I'm building this motor for my brother's 88 firebird. We stroked his 2.8 to 3.1 and put a turbo on it a year ago. Had it running great on 7psi for over 6 months. I ended up getting a great deal on some 37pph injectors from a grand national, so we cranked the wastegate to 15psi. I didn't have time to tune the top end over that weekend, so I told him he could drive it to school, but not to "get on it" untill we can tune it. He made it two weeks before he lost self-control and melted 3 spark plugs and a piston getting onto the highway.

We pulled a complete 3100 motor out of a 2000 Chevy Malibu. It had low(ish) miles and a leaking headgasket. It was sucking a little oil from under the valvecover into cylinder #1. The block still had hatch/hone marks in every cylinder. The heads have the large valves (1.760"). I didn't know untill I opened it up, but these are full roller motors except the rocker tips. The D.I.S. wiring is simple, but there are a ton of little things to do for this topend swap I am finding out.

He bought 3100 .030" over SpeedPro pistons with coated skirts (cheapest available). We're waiting on the machine shop to bore the block and the build will be underway.

In the mean time... to mitigate some of the cost of this build I would like to help someone else get started on their build. We'd like to sell the bottom end of the FWD motor: Crank($75), rods+pistons($75), cam($?), roller lifters($??), block($??), etc. Better yet $200 or best offer can take it all. I don't mind shipping the parts, but I don't know how to ship something as heavy as the whole shortblock.

The crank is the popular 981 casting with the DIS notches. You can swap this rotating assembly into your 2.8 or 3.1 to get your bottom end ready for a 3.1/3X00 hybrid project (we would have done THAT if the motor didn't need to be bored out). Or just swap the crank and get some 3.1 pistons to stroke your large main 2.8 to a 3.1.

What we're keeping:


for sale:




There are a few more pictures available.

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

I'm still unsure how to hook up the fuel lines to the new fuel rails?

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Subscribed....

enswrob

fwd 3.1? or rwd..... this should be interesting

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

The block, rods, and accessories are from a 1988 2.8 RWD. Everything else is from a 2000 malibu (170 hp) 3100 FWD. People say its been done before... I've just never seen one.

enswrob

good luck keep us posted

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

nah. stock block and oil pan will bolt up and clear everything... like stock. I hear 3X00 topend swap in your future though...

enswrob

i just did a engine swap a few months ago..not wanting to do one for a loong while

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

You need to add some an fittings to the fuel lines to get them to hook up. What's your plan for the ignition?

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

custom trigger wheel and factory magnetic sensor to upgrade to the D.I.S.

To add -an fittings, won't I have to thread the inside of the rails?

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

The inside of the fuel rail should already be threaded on the end where the regulator is.

How do the bearings etc look? I might be interested in the rotating assy. (crank rods and pistons).

You know you can convert the Gen1 block to a roller, but I know you already have a flat tappet aftermarket cam.

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

Good luck with your project. Ill be watching and offering any help I can.

Are you putting the turbo back on? Id be careful with those pistons...They might not like high boost.

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

I've considered NOT putting the turbo back on... going for reliability/mpg on this build... if we put it on, it will be max 7psi.

considering putting a 5 speed in it too for better mpg and to eliminate the tv cable, but it will be a lot of work and tack like $300 onto the build.

I thought about putting compression unions on the hard fuel lines from the malibu and adapting from there... as long as they can handle the pressure without leaking.

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

The crank and bearings look great... I don't know how many miles were on the motor but there was a hairline crack in the headgasket on #1. The bearings had very little wear... this crank might be better than the one we have. If I still have it when it comes time to put the crank in, i'll put THIS crank in my brother's motor.

pictures:


I can email larger versions of these pictures.

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

I'm looking for a good spark timing table for a baseline tune. I think I remember hearing that these heads like 22 degrees total timing at WOT. Does anyone have a spark table (or know of a specific bin file) to reference.

Update: I decided to try out the 1227165 ecm with $6E code and a V8 MAF sensor to run the motor. I have all the wiring figured out, just working on the bin file. The block comes back from the machine shop tommorow along with pushrods, valvesprings, seals, locks, retainers, rod/main/cam bearings. I asked the machinist to get LS6 vavlesprings. He asked me if stock 3100 springs would do if he couldn't get the LS6 springs through his supplier. I said ok, so we'll find out what we're getting tomorrow.

We pulled a T5 transmission, pedals, shifter, bellhousing, clutch, flywheel, etc. from a 1995 Firebird with a 3.4 at the junk yard. The clutch looked brand new, so that was a good score. My brother paid $130 for everything. The transmission has the low 3.76:1 first gear, which will be like having 4.20:1 rear gears compared to the stock automatic in first gear, while retaining a very similar overdrive ratio. In my opinion, its ideal for the small displacement (3189cc @ .030"over) motor.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

One of these might help

http://www.v6z24.com/jbodyforum/tuning-faq-t102758.html

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

They should be fine, I ran the same pistons (uncoated) with a bad "tune", on 9 PSIG (nothing really gained after 7 PSIG though, due to injectors being too small), and have since sold them to another person who has been running them in a similar combo with the same or slightly more boost IIRC.

I'm not saying to throw cuation to the wind, but hypereutectic pistins will hold up very well when treated right. The whole "need forged pistons" discussion gets blown WAY out of proportion.
----------
I did this in my truck with a turbo 6 years ago, search under my current user name and The_Raven to see more about my swap.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

I used a short piece of the original tubing that had the fitting still on it, then with the use of a compression fitting added a custom bent tube to then go to my fuel filter which was bolted to the side of my block in the OEM bracket (this was in my truck remember). The same idea can be used, with the existing flex lines, many J-body swappers do it this way.

The return line I cheesed out just a bit and used a short piece of rubber hose to attach to the new custom line to then feed into the original return line. I had planned on also using a compression fitting here, but was frustrated at the time and just wanted to hear it run, and had to get it running again, since it was my DD at the time. I wouldn't suggest do it this way again though, use compression fittings or better yet, double flare and coupler.

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for the link FF.

SS:
I already got some brass compression fittings (5/16 and 3/8 rated for gasoline) to splice the new rails into the stock lines.

Do you think you could find me a McMaster part number for the "double flare coupler". I have a flaring tool, but I dont know how to find that type of coupler.

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

I found the flare couplings... my dad is going to pick them up for me... they look just like -an male ends with nuts on either end.

Got the block and the rest of the parts back today. I put the cam and the crank in the block. The LS6 springs were going to be $120 so he didnt order anything. Lingenfelter sells them for $52.95 + $15 shipping.

I want to get rid of the 3100 block, cam, roller lifters and guides, rods and pistons, and my old 3.1 crank. Make offers cause I don;t feel like storing this stuff. I'm probably going to leave the block, cam and lifters sitting outside untill I can take it to the landfill and scrap it.

DID YOU KNOW???????!!!!
Late model FWD connecting rods are thinner at the piston end. The machine shop showed us how our stock 2.8 rod would NOT fit inside of the FWD pistons! So we traded him our rods for 5 new ones and we paid for one rod. (Reminder: I've still got some FWD pistons and rods for sale)

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Someone was trying to rip you, lol. I pay $65/set of LS6 stock springs, and $35 for the LS1 seats if memory serves me correctly.

That's interesting about the rods. From what I understood, the 60* rods interchange until the longer 3500 rods were introduced. Now you are going to make me compare, I mayhave a few set of pistons/rods laying around

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Yeah, something's not right. The rods ARE the same all the way through from 2.8L to 3400.

I used my RWD 2.8L rods in my FWD pistons, and there was NO issue fitting them on.

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

Maybe it was some kind of optical illusion. I checked the rods he gave me, they have the same markings and look identical to my 3100 rods, so I'm pretty sure they'll be fine either way. We needed at least one new rod anyway because one of them was enfused with aluminum. He probably had a set of new rods laying around that he couldn't get rid of and decided to sell them to us for $29 (the price of one new rod).

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

UPDATE:

Neither the stock or the 3100 throttle body will even bolt on. I guess I need that adapter from FirstFirebird? I don't know what to do about the t-stat housing either. Please help!

I'm going to make custom turbo headers because I don't want to modify the stock manifolds or buy new headers for $480 only to have to modify them. The Machine shop forgot to order my valve spring seats and seals, so that put everything on a major hold for now. I tapped all the extra coolant hose passages in the lower and upper intakes so I can plug them with pipe plugs. the A.I.R. passages in the exhaust runners can be plugged with -6an male plugs. And I have a plan in place for the fuel lines. I drilled and tapped the passenger side head so the alternator braket can bolt in the stock RWD position, I just hope I can seal the threads so they don't leak coolant now, oops. I was thinking of using JB weld on the threads of the mounting studs into the heads. They shouldn't leak that way.

On a brighter note... The bottom end, timing chain, timing cover, and water pump are together, with the 3100 windage tray. I had to dent in that baffle in the oil pan with one tap of a copper hammer and notch the windage tray for the dipstick. Other than those two things it was a clean install (unlike using the 3400 tray).

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Just use some thread tape or pipe dope for the tap into the coolant passage. The 3500 and the iron heads have bosses that penetrate into the coolant, and seal just fine (also the waterpump bolts ).

What TB and manifold are you trying to use? To use the FWD TB, you are going to need a longer TB cable since the FWD TB pulls from the front.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

There is a W-body throttle cable that will be plenty long enough. I have one to use on my Datsun (I'm using a 3400 TB), and it's about 5 feet long on just the sheath IIRC. It comes from a 3100 or 3400 equipped car, so the TB end will be fine, may have to file the firewall just a bit since it uses a round hole, where as I believe the 3rd gen F-body uses square hole IIRC.

I'm thinking the throttle cable came from a late '90s W-body, but again I'll look again and let you know.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

I know the 4th gen Fbods are using a 96-up Vortech cable from a GM pickup. I haven't gotten around to getting one, may just make a relay throttle box like some FWD's have.

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

I figured I could get a longer throttle cable, but neither throttle body will actually bolt on or open and close because the RWD accesories are in the way (mainly the tensioner/alt mounting bracket). If I had a spacer that would space the whole TB out a couple (2 or 3) inches, either TB would be fine. I might be able to make one out of steel tubing with flanges welded to each end. I may be able to incorporate a custom throttle cable bracket in it too.

I guess I need to fab a custom t-stat housing, I think steel will be fine if I paint it. I also need an EGR block off plate for the upper intake manifold.

Im thinking of spray painting the entire motor gloss black engine enamel, what do you think.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Eh?

No one so far has had any problems with accessories interfering with the TB.

Gonna have to see pics on this one.

The front cover gets that tab machined or cut off to allow the LIM to sit all the way down. Other than that, The alternator bracket and accessors should really be quite the distance away from the TB.

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

I cut that tab off the timing cover. It clears fine by about 3/16". I'll get pics this afternoon of the whole thing assembled.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Mine is the same way...

http://s158.photobucket.com/albums/t...t=100_3777.jpg

That's a Ford TB I was considering using, but it's up side down or the pull would hit the stock alt bracket.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Interesting.....

Low mount alternator FTW!

I hadn't heard of interferance issues until now.

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

pictures:





And the stock throttle body in my proposed position.

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

You know.....I think Ive heard that someone around here has a CNC machine....and he has made TB plates before...He might be able to help.

But it looks like its coming together nicely.

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

update. motor is built (finally) and I dropped the engine and t5 trans in yesterday. Trans is from a 94 firebird with 3.74:1 first gear and .74:1 OD. I put JB Quick on the threads of the accesory mounting studs to seal the coolant from leaking out of the threads that I had to make in the passenger side head. Driver side accesories were a direct bolt on. My dad is making a TB adapter for me.

valvetrain parts:
-same flat tappet cam as the 3.1--> 212i212e .440i.440e(w/1.5r)
-91 3.1 cavalier push rods
-2000 malibu 1.6 roller fulcrum rockers
-2000 malibu heads (406 casting I think maybe it was 207)
-ZO6 yellow beehive springs
-GMPP !!HARDENED!! LS1 spring seats drilled out to .562 ID from .550". One of them shattered into 4 equal pieces and I went through three drillbits.
-SBC viton valve seals
-LS1 locks and retainers.

enswrob

nice work lets hear it run.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Of course you went through drills, the LS1 seats are as hard (if not harder) than drills, unless you are into carbide :P

Should have asked, I use stones to mod the seats for fit on the guides Just use a tapered stone in the drill press and go to town.

Whay did you have to epoxy the hole? Thread tape should have been good enougg - the 3500 heads have a boss penetrating the coolant passages on evey one.

Glad to see things up and going good. What about DIS signal?

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

The tapped holes in the heads seemed like they had a good bit of "play" in the threads, probably because the studs are so old, and the tap was fresh. I figured the epoxy would garrantee the seal. Speaking of leaks, I found a hairline crack in the lower intake manifold right near the front-most bolt. I hope it doesn't go through to the coolant passage. That would be a pain to have to get another lower intake. I put superglue on the crack...for fun.

I never did finish modeling the trigger wheel in Solidworks. My dad is making the trigger wheel for me from a paper drawing. I hope to have it by the morning along wiht throttle body plates that I can make an adapter by welding pipe between them.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Back to the drawing board...

I'm going to get the 3.1 running again (with a 3400 top end) since I have all the parts except head gaskets, and will need one myself.

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

I took some pictures of the progress so far. Throttlebody spacer is done. Can you see the plate for the thermostat housing bolted in place? I have almost all of the parts for the crank trigger.

Firstfirebird, the last part I need is the wheel itself, still wanna trade a wheel for a .STEP file?

nixon5

nice i cant wait to see it run

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Interesting color for the water pump. Let's see a video once she's all done.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

.IGES or .IGS will work too :P

Looks like the project is moving again.

Interesting take on the TB adapter. You do know you could have used the stock 3100/3400 TB and used a throttle cable from a Vortech truck, right?

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

the plastic throttle cam from the 3100 hit the accesory brackets. It would bolt up, but the throttle wouldn't open (see pics above).

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Yeah, I thought about later and remembered mine. The 3.4 brackets will clear.

project89

iTrader: (1)

psst wheels are cheap

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/_Car-...=p4506.c0.m245

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

I don't think that wheel will work for what I want to do.

I'm trying to use the factory electronics by simulating the notches on the 3100 crank, but in front of the motor instead of in the crank case.

project89

iTrader: (1)

oh **** for some reason i was thinking u were using the megasquirt system.doh

umm look on ebay they do have assorted wheels u may be able to find the one with the right number of notches in it for 5-20 bucks

edit how many teeth do u need?

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

4 notches. 3 evenly distributed, and one mis-placed.

project89

iTrader: (1)

try this
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...ksid=p3907.m29

its an msd magnetic wheel its smooth all the way around u could cut ur own notches in it with an end mill or even a bandsaw etc