58mark

iTrader: (3)

Allow me to introduce myself. I'm mark, and I'm about 40 years old, have two kids, (one that's about to be a teenager) and I'm thinking of getting another camaro.

I say another because I had one for years, a 85 V6. It was a good car, but I always wanted to get something with the ground effects, nicer looking wheels, and something that looked a little more "Z28", so that's why i'm looking at a 88-92 camaro

the faster engine never really attracted me, I'm too old to go around trying to impress people with how fast my car is, I just want something I can care for as a fun hobby car, and be proud of how it looks.

so here's my question. Would I be nuts in looking at a V6 for a hobby car? I notice it seems like the v6 cars are going for 1/3rd to a half what the v8's are going for, so obviously they just aren't in much demand. That means I can get a much nicer car for less money than if I have my heart set on a V8. I'm also assuming the insurance cost is MUCH lower, but I haven't called to confirm that.

My father, who has restored cars before, has always said "it's stupid to put money into fixing up a base model car, it's going to cost as much to restore it as the top of the line, and in the end you are still going to have a base model car"

give me your opinions and answer me this important question if you can... are the V6 engines from 1988-92 less reliable engines than the V8s? My v6 was good, but it was totally SHOT at 200,000 miles. Is that typical? I wasn't the original owner, so I can't testify on how well it was taken care of for about 150,000 of those miles.

sorry about the long post, give me your thoughts.

rough

Im not sure on insurance rates, but i pay 16$ a month for full coverage through progressive, havent had no tickets for 5 yearas, married, and 1 kid, i got a 305 tbi.

Im not very educated on the v6 motor of the camaro, but a 305 will run smoother and have more power.

The v6's , 305's are normally around the same price
my 305 currently has 200k on it and still gets beat on every day, i try to break it so i can get a new motor cuz the wife complains why i buy parts for things that are not broken lol, but to no avail, still running strong !

GTA50

I guess it all depends on what you want to do with the car. If you are looking for collectability or wanting to do the car show thing, then choose a V-8 and a model that is perhaps rare and therefore desirable (i.e. IROC, Z28, GTA, TTA...). The V-6's are certainly much more reasonably priced.

Regarding V-6 longevity, my daily drivers for the past 21 years have all been Thirdgens, V-6, 5-speeds (one Camaro and two Firebirds). I've consistently gotten over 450,000 km (almost 300,000 miles) on the V-6 engine and my last rebuild barely needed a honing of the cylinders. Gas mileage typically runs about 9-10 km/100 liters (about 32 mpg).

HTH

Gary.

58mark

iTrader: (3)

thanks. I'm really not looking for a show car, but i'm seeing fewer and fewer 3rd gens out on the road, and I want to get one before it's too late, or too expensive. I just like they way they look, and I like how comfortable I am in them. I'm 6' 8", so that can't be said for every car out there...

project89

iTrader: (1)

these cars arent at the point were they are worth a ton or rare,ppl just think they are.maybe 20 years from now they will be

most v8 cars have been beat to death driven by teenagers.(i know when i was younger i beat everyone of my v8 f-bodys to death) and ive owned a total of 12.and finding a nice one that hasnt is going to cost ya a good bit.

though my friend just brought by a mint 90 gta for me to look at with only 40k on the clock thing was dam near showroom condition and he only paid around 400-600 more then i paid for my base model v6 a few years ago

so u can find nice cheap v8 cars in great condition it just takes a while

the v6 cars are deffiantly cheaper then the v8 cars and are typically in better shape.if ur wanting somethign to drive and show i dont think the motor would matter as long as the body/interior is nice.

u can pick up a cheap rs model camaro with the v6 and always swap on the iroc/z28 lights rims,dash cluster and steering wheel. and then down the road if u wanted u could swap in a brand new rebuilt tpi 350 and auto trans

granted it wont be an original car but ur not after one to make money,ur after one to show and cruise in so who cares if its all original

Doc_G

iTrader: (1)

Well if you have the cash, NOW is definately a good time as far as 3rd Gens are concerned. We have another thread discussing that topic in a different section of these forums.

Myself, I've owned both v6 and v8 camaros and I prefer the v8s. There are several nice examples of v8 powered thirds for sale on this board. Check them out and compare them to what you see for sale in your area, or purchase one of them if they are within a reasonable distance for you to travel.

As for being set on a v6, thats fine as well. If you do get one please make sure its the 3.1 v6 as opposed to the 2.8. The 2.8, in my personal experience, is the worst chevy v6 ever. I've owned a few of them and I must say no matter the platform (from camaro to s-10 to blazer) they were with out exception little better than boat anchors. I once heard working on one was like masturbating with a cheese grader; Slightly amusing but mostly painful.

58mark

iTrader: (3)

ok that raises the question... are the 3.1's any better? aren't they just bored out 2.8s? what makes them any better a choice?

project89

iTrader: (1)

u do relize the 2.8 and the 3.1 is the same exact motor right the only differnce is the 3.1 has a slightly bigger stroke, nothing else changed

edit u replyied while i was

a 3.4 is a bored out 3.1

Doc_G

iTrader: (1)

No I wasn't aware thats all that changed. What made the 3.1's run longer and with less problems than the 2.8?

project89

iTrader: (1)

early 2.8 motors had small valve heads and small diam rod and main journals, these motors were prone to failure.

all of the fuel injected motors have the large valve heads and large journal crankshafts

when the motors switched form carb to efi is when these changes took place

58mark

iTrader: (3)

a 305 does seem to be a smarter, safer choice.... how many years has chevy made that engine? it's one of those "tried and true" engines...

project89

iTrader: (1)

if ur going to do a 305 car stay away from the carbed and tbi motors
the only one really worth getting is a 305tpi.

a chevy 305 is just liek any other small block its pretty much a 350 with small bores.

58mark

iTrader: (3)

ok, i'll bite... what's wrong with the TBI? it's the onyl 305 you could get without moving to the IROC or the Z28. which will make my cost skyrocket

project89

iTrader: (1)

lol i forgot for a minute ur not looking for something to go fast in or anything like that.
im always looking at things on what can be done with it down the road.

the tbi systems dont leave much room for improvement

but yeah for somone not looking to mod the motor or go fast a tbi motor is fine actually

58mark

iTrader: (3)

yeah, I'm more of a "leave it stock, but keep it running smooth" kind of guy

thanks for your help. I'll keep my eyes open for an 1988-92, adult owned 3rd gen. In an ideal world it would be dark red, have t-tops, and a 5 speed

that's my dream, the question is if I'm patient enough for my dream car to come to me, or I'm going to get impatient and get something else.

project89

iTrader: (1)

well just so u know dont stop looking at the v6's either the v6 cars are just as fast as the 305 cars pretty much, so if u find a cheap 305 car in ok condition
but a v6 car in great condition ur not really giving anything up by buying the v6

58mark

iTrader: (3)

that's interesting... I wasn't aware of that. This is what I like about the v6's... more room under the hood to get at stuff.. when i see a picture of the 305, everything looks so cramped under, it looks like it would be a pain to change a water pump, spark plugs, whatever.

I'll keep my eyes and my options open. thanks for the education.

GTA50

Also, we've all negelected to thank you for even considering the V-6!!!

So many others would tell you to do the engine swap to a V-8 or to go with a 305 (or 350) to begin with. I have a 1984 Trans Am with the LG4 and my 1994 Firebird (3.4 V-6) would probably dust it. There are definite advantages to the V-6. With the current snow outside, my V-6 Firebird would run circles around my GTA.

Going for a 3.1 vs 2.8 only means a difference of 5 hp in favor of the 3.1. I had a 1984 Camaro and a 1983 Firebird SE - both with carbed 2.8's and my current 1989 Firebird with MPFI 2.8 (now 3.1) and in terms of reliability - no difference. Now others may differ with me on performance but to tell you the truth, I've had more problems with the '89 than the other cars. Part of that may be due to the ducting of the cooling system and the "need" to run hotter on the later years for emissions reasons.

One word of advice, if going for a V-6, forget the automatic and go for the 5-speed. That has always been my rule of thumb and I have never regretted it.

Gary.

GTA50

I read your post a little more closely about changing spark plugs and for my V-6 - about 20-30 minutes. For my GTA (305), more like 2 hours.

58mark

iTrader: (3)

yep... like I said.. I'm 40 years old and have been around the block a few times... I dont need the aggravation...

GTA50

You never said what body style you were leaning to - Camaro or Firebird.

My three criteria for my daily driver were (in this order): T-roof, 5-speed, V-6. On the interior, depending on the look your are after, the Firebirds tend to be a little more optioned and thus more the "cruiser" image IMO, while the Camaro is more plain, business-like and more "performance/racer" image.

I should have mentioned earlier that the 5-speed combos also got the better rear-end - 3.42 if I recall corrrectly.

Gary.

58mark

iTrader: (3)

I think I'm open to either one, really.. I like the pre-91 nose on the firebirds, and the dash of the later camaros..

rough

please don't compare a 2.8/3.1 v6 to a 305 V8. 305 tbi might be the slowest v8, but will embarrass a 2.8/3.1 v6.

v8's run smoother, parts a million, and has the kick to pull out in traffic.
never worked on a 6 cyl camaro, but the v8's are very easy to work on.

GTA50

Well, considering your size, driver comfort is what should be paramount, and since you are behind the wheel, also consider the dash you want to look at. Therefore, I would probably suggest a 1988 - 1990 Camaro (with the dash you prefer), T-roof, 5-speed transmission (plus better gears) and either the 2.8 or 3.1 V-6. If you decide to do an engine build on the V-6, there are plenty of threads to help you, and I've done the build as well, so I can give you my perspective.

Now you only need to think about color!!

1piece@atime

iTrader: (1)

Sound to me like you should listen to your father. And yes you are nuts ... so you should fit in nicely around here! Welcome.

IROCtheThird

iTrader: (15)

I will say the 2.8/3.1 is a great choice, as well as a 305, both very reliable motors but fall shy of any performance from the factory. Of course the 305 will sound cooler and what not, but I doubt you care about that. I have a 2.8 and a 305, I have done plenty of work to both of them and all in all they are both relatively easy to work on, by the way, the 305 has given me way more problems, but its luck of the draw, my v6 was $350 with 40,000 original grandma miles, I'm the proud 2nd owner, aside from some rust that car is awesome! But its all what you desire, just know no matter what you choose its still an f-body.

BTW: All 2.8's 5spd or auto got 3.42 open diffs. I believe for some reason when the 3.1's came out they went to 3.23's.

58mark

iTrader: (3)

already done! I like the dark red (burgandy?) followed closely by the dark green

pontiacguy1

In 1991 and 1992, the 3.1 V6 was rated at 140 HP. The 305 TBI V8 was rated at 160 HP. The 3.1 engines got 3.23 gears for automatics, and 3.42 gears for manual transmission. The 305 TBI got 2.73 gears for the automatics, and I believe 3.08 gears for the manual transmission.

The difference in the weight and the gearing made up for the difference in Horsepower, and the 305 TBI and 3.1V6 cars were almost identical performance-wise. Both seem to have a good reputation as far as reliability is concerned.

Basically, the 305 TBI is the engine from the 1/2 ton truck put into an F-body. It was offered as a V8 alternative for the base car, just because a lot of people wanted a larger engine.

If I were you, I would try to find the base model car in the best condition, whether V8 or V6. If performance upgrades are not somthing that you want, and if the looks and comfort of the car are the most important, then either the 305 TBI or the 3.1 V6 will work out fine for you. You won't be dissatisfied with either.

The T-top and 5 speed combo seems to be rather rare, at least around here. Almost all of the T top cars I have ever seen came with the slushbox trans. I have seen one or two T top manual trans cars, but that is it. If you can find one so equipped, I might be inclined to get that.

rough

isnt it, the T5 can barely handle stock hp ?

project89

iTrader: (1)

the v6 and the 305 are extreamly close performance wise, it usually comes down tot he driver when u put the v6 head to head with a 305 car

the 305 may have 20more hp but it is also offset by a heavier car and more drivetrain loss 12" converter vs a 10inch and so on

they can handle it its when u beat the poor things to death that they dont live. i.e powershifting/side steping the clutch etc

though i had an 86 iroc with a 383 and a t5 ill admit i was young as hell and i drove thatcar for a year beating the **** out of the transmission it never broke on me. but the 1-2 syncros were pretty much gone in it by the time i got rid of the car. i was usually replacing trans mounts once every 2 weeks though

lol speaking of with man it sucks trying to shift a 5 speed car with a busted tranny mount the friggen shifter drops every time u lift off the gas to shift

58mark

iTrader: (3)

I'd love to get the t-tops, but it isn't life or death with me. I actually would rather NOT have power windows (but power locks are nice) I'm assuming ouy can get one without the other, or were they part of the same option package? Is there somewhere I can look up stuff like that?

project89

iTrader: (1)

im sure u can get it, my 89 had power doorlocks and trunk,but manual windows

58mark

iTrader: (3)

great... I like manual windows on a 2 door car. Long term they are easier to deal with than power windows.

Bruce91RS

im 41 just bought a 91 rs v6 with t-tops 80000 original miles needs a little brake work (replaced front left caliper $13.00 ) has a cooling fan issue that i havent looked at yet (not my driver yet) had to have an electrician friend remove aftermarket alarm need to get a stereo has real decent black paint nice grey and black int. NO RIPS in seats needs dash pad has new bfgoodrich t/a's on stock mag rims i have two kids a 20 year old daughter (who thinks she is going to drive it fat chance she is not responsible enough) and a 12 year old son who has informed me that he wants to work on my cool car with me (less time with the playstation is good with me) if i have my way that will be his first car! initial cost of car $700.00 from a guy in the coast gaurd who didnt have time to work on it i think you could find a great deal on the net if you try i got mine off craigs list GO FOR IT!!!!

Bruce91RS

mine has man. windows and locks....but power hatch pull down

chevyracingrox

are you nuts? i don't think we care if your the badest fruitloop in the world. your a thirdgen enthusiast and thats good enough for us.

I have a 3.1 swapped into an 89 camaro mated to a T5 manual. these cars are a joy to drive. even if your just cruising. the 5 speed takes the v6 from a little S10 engine to a fun sports car engine, even if slightly underpowered. third gens are basically easy to work on. the biggest problem is usually rusted bolts. the V6 is VERY cheap too. check out my signature, you could get better with more money, but you get the idea.

58mark

iTrader: (3)

yeah, my 85 was an automatic, and I really want my next one to be a 5 speed...

I'm working on restoring a 58 impala right now, when that's done I'll have the money to start serious shopping for my camaro

rough

The 3.1 has 135 hp & 160tq, the lo3 has 170hp & 255 tq,
Torque gets you there, hp keeps you there.
Sorry but the v6, even with 3.42 gear vs the 2.73 and about 50lb curb weight difference, would get owned badly.

Drinkmorebeer

Torque gets you there, hp keeps you there.
Sorry but the v6, even with 3.42 gear vs the 2.73 and about 50lb curb weight difference, would get owned badly.[/quote]

I bet you could beat my 5.7 tpi. Unless i backfire. Thats gotta be a bolt-on 75 Lbs torque.

rough

Right now id beat you, only because i would have good power off the line, after its running right, you will beat me up pretty bad. Cant wait to go for a ride after its GTG !

Drinkmorebeer search "timing issues" i started a thread for you, check it out.

pontiacguy1

The 3.1 liter engine in 1991 and 1992 is 140 HP, not 135. I have the original sales brouchure for the firebird, which is where I got the information.

The rear gearing makes more of a difference than you would think. If the TBI 305 had the 3.23 geared rear, it would be quicker no doubt.

The two cars run almost identical 0-60 and 1/4 mile times. Of course, more displacement is a very big advantage when you start modifying things. If you like V8's better than good for you.... about 95% of F body owners do. Don't try to run all of us V6ers down just because you have an extra 20 factory HP. The 305 TBI cars were built as cruisers too.

project89

iTrader: (1)

pontiacguy dont even bother arguing with him, most of the ppl here know that the 305-v6s cars run just about identical times

some ppl are just stuck on since its a v8 it has to be alot faster

rough

Dude, your missing the point, there not close in 1/4 times. V6 cars have half the torque that lo3 have which is a huge difference. There is a 2 second difference in the 1/4 mile time.

project89 pontiacguy dont even bother arguing with him, most of the ppl here know that the 305-v6s cars run just about identical times

some ppl are just stuck on since its a v8 it has to be alot faster

You are dense if you think this way. My 2 ltr 4 banger would own my 305 and run with 350's easily, just because its a v8 doesn't mean its faster. 3.1 and 2.8 are very slow.

At leest this guy is getting his research done before buying a car so he's got options when he's looking.

Go race a Chevy beretta, it has the same 2.8 and 3.1 you have, and it will own you.

a 3000lb car with 160lb of torque is weak. Wow its got gears? but still no power.

Bring your v6 to a meet, then we can post up on youtube you getting owned.

Without a turbo, 6's are very sad!

58mark

iTrader: (3)

I know this may be a foreign concept to many of you, but I dont care that much about power. can it get up to highway speeds on an average on ramp? I'm good to go.

I've driven cars fast enough to make the lines on a highway merge together into one long blur. I've had my fun 20 years ago. I just want something nice looking, easy to work on, and reliable. This whole thread was basically to make sure I wasn't going to kick myself later because of the financial implications. In other words... "getting a V6, short term cheaper, but long term more expensive.."

rough

Odds are, when you find your car it will be a 305tbi. 54% of camaro's made "3rd gen" had them.

The v8 will also run smoother, you will feel less vibrations, and there are way more parts for the 8's then the 6's

project89

iTrader: (1)

rough i know u not talking to me, my car will embarass most of the cars on this site

58mark

iTrader: (3)

sounds like if i find the right car, adult owned, low miles, good body, 5 speed and t-tops, i should jump on it no matter which engine it has. But from what I've seen the price of the v8 will be at least double that of the v6

chevyracingrox

hell yea. I think its safe to say the v6 can take some boost, from what this guy's doing.

rough

v8's can boost to ? lol

Im not getting in a pissing match about ur v6 turbo. Your car is not stock, and i bet it still runs 14's. BTw why do you have a stock supra turbo on your car? Thats gotta take some serious time to spool up.

I got 89 rs for 1200 and my current for 900. My 900$ car is in way better shape then the 1200 car. If your willing to travel some distance you will probably find a pretty good deal. I drove 3 hours to get mine, was worth it !

project89

iTrader: (1)

monsterweights sorry for the thread hijack

lol at stock supra turbo, the car had a t3/t4 hybrid on it now it has a hybrid 67mm on it. and lag no such thing on my car in street trim or race trim.i can leave anywere form 3-18 psi without the 2step

car is also in the middle of being tunned for 27+ psi on the t67 now
car ran 13.00 @ 105 on 9 pounds of boost with an ity bitty turbo pretty much untuned

of course ull still run ur mouth though ,ur on the other side of the country and know ull never have to line up against my car