About 2 weeks ago(2 weeks from this wednesday) i was getting on the highway with my friend to go to the mall and all of a sudden my car shut off. I had no response when i would step on the gas and it seemed to be idling until i started to pull of to the side of the road and it stalled and lost power steering and all that junk you know. I immediately tried to start the car again and it started right away like normal and died within a few seconds and then i tried again and nothing happened. I got out and looked at the engine and it was not hot and looked completely normal and was at normal operating temperature. We started to push the car and after awhile i tried to start it again, it started...and died in a few seconds. Then it wouldnt start at all and then i would want to start and just not crank over. After pushing it some more i treid to start it again and it started but it was idling terribly rough like 500-1000 rpm constantly hunting and the whole car was shaking. I finally got it towed and after all the work has been done on it....it still isnt running and the garage is out of ideas and so am I. What has been replaced/checked:

New intake manifold gaskets
New Egr valve
New IACV
New Oil
New Coolant
New alternator
New computer
New MAP sensor
New Distributor
Checked timing- not an issue


I wanted to check the intake manifold gaskets because i initially thought they were bad, and timing could have been an issue, heres a list of things that were previously replaced:

Spark plugs
Wires
Cap and rotor
TPS
Engine temp sensor
Ambient air intake temp sensor
Thermostat
I have a K&N Air filter
New oil filter
New Fuel filter


They checked fuel pressure, not a problem. They dropped the exhaust and its not blocked up. They checked the o rings on the injectors and all the intake seals and all that, they had it torn down to the heads twice......and still nothing.....

I have about 4 grand in this car at this point and ive done alot to get it back on the road...it sat for 3 years

Here are some details of the car:

1990 Chevrolet Camaro RS

3.1L "T-Code" LH0 OHV MPFI 60* V6

No performance upgrades other than K&N

62,XXX original miles

No cracks in block or intake

Cardomain: http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3200340

I know I put up alot but anything would greatly be appreciated, Im so frustrated with it and I just want my baby back thanks...

 

I went and saw the car today, with the alternator plugged in and everything i started the car and started and revved up to a bit passed 1000rpm and then i bogged down and died right away, the garage i took it to is giving up on it and im taking it to Blaise Alexander Chevrolet today to see what they can do....I didnt want to but I need someone that actually knows what theyre doing and people that work on GM cars for a living.

 

hmmm sounds like you have done just about everything....id hate to say it but it sounds like a computer problem...my computer went and now that i got it replaced everything is back to normal

 

I replaced the computer, I had 3 different computers in it and they all acted the same way

 

Did you go to a junkyard and get a used computer or did you buy a new one?

 

damn man....

sorry to hear about the car, but I'm glad its not just me. I've put some much money into it and I'm still not getting anywhere...

you and I are having the same problem.....



please please please let me know what they find out where you took it at. This maybe will help me and many others....

Please good luck and thank you bro....

 

Have whom ever is currently working on the car measure the resistance of the injectors. I'd bet that over half of them are under 6 ohms. Symptoms are correct for injectors shorting out. Which goes hand-in-hand with them being Multec injectors (that is what GM used in the '90s, among other years).

If GM has the car expect to pay a lot for a new set of Multec's.

RBob.

 

You said they dropped the exhaust, did they check the cat too? A plugged cat will cause major running/power issues.
You also said that you got it to crank and revved it to 1000 rpms then it bogged down and died again. Did you only rev it to 1000 because thats all it would do or will it red line? If you can get it to start and red line the tach then I wouldn't think it would be the cat. What you described sounds like its plugged to me. If it were then you would only be able to get the car to run (poorly) for a few seconds before the back pressure would build up enough to keep a burnable air/fuel mixture from entering the cylinders.

 

I did nothing with the throttle, all I did was turn the key to the start position and when it started I let it go back to the on position and it died. I talked to another mechanic and he said it sounds like a bad ignition switch, thats what I told the dealer to check first and hopefully this will fix it, it would explain why the car just suddenly shut off on the highway, the switch burnt out and it stopped a steady flow of electricity to the engine effectively telling it to shut off and then it just couldnt turn back on because it was shot.....I'm going to call the dealer back in a few hours and see what they found out if they don't call me back.

 

same thing was happening to my 91 firebird and it was the injectors. They are all have problems cause they there the first gen design and are notorious for failing and draining the power right out.

 

you got new injectors and how much did that cost? were they all bad? new injectors are expensive!

 

I don't remember the exact amount for just the injectors since I had some other stuff done at the same time but I had all 6 replaced with bosch injectors

 

a1 auto has injectors new for $59 each
http://www.1aauto.com/1A/Fuel_Inject...N00002/1199591

 

thanks but if the dealer sees that the injectors are bad then theyre gonna slap in some new multecs and im gonna pay a **** load, i only have like 450 bucks left for this car right now....

 

I paid $350 for my injectors(all 6) from Autozone. After 4 years, they are still working(knock on wood). I probably could have gotten a used set from someone parting out or who swapped out their motor for MUCH less though. Check on the boards, there are plenty of cars being parted and if you get them from a car that was running good then you'll save quite a bit.

 

wont you get an error code on the dash or something if the injector goes bad?

 

i think so but i dont know the ecu that well, my light almost never comes on this is the first time ive seen it since january

 

heres a list of codes, theres no VIN "T" But "V" is a 3.1L so it should be good enough

http://www.troublecodes.net/GM/

i dont see anything about an injector but i just searched for the work injector using CTRL+F so correct me if im wrong

 

Not necessarily. There may be one that shows up but like in my case I got code 32 which is EGR even though it ended up being 2 bad fuel injectors. It makes sense but, doesn't tell you exactly what's the problem.

 

I called the dealer that has my car and the last "mechanic" that worked on my car put my new distributor in wrong and couldn't even tell that the timing was off, Mr. Goodwrench is working on my car now and he could tell right away the the distributor was in wrong and my timing was off, it cost me 70 bucks to hook it up to a computer, and they charge 70 bucks an hour and the timing will take 5 hours to do and I already have about 140 bucks into it at this point there so its going to end up costing me another 500 bucks to get it back on the road. At this point I don't really care I just want it back, but I am definitely going to call the last garage that worked on it and get some of my money back, its complete that I paid him to do the work and to do it right and he couldn't do it, and its costing me additional money to correct his mistakes. I'll let you guys know what happens......Thanks for all your help

Oh and by the way....the ignition switch wasn't bad so thats one less thing I have to worry about at this point.

 

Are you sure he didn't say 5 minutes to correct the timing? In 5 hours the whole engine could be R&R'd.

There is one bolt that holds the distributor in. Then to set the timing you open a connector under the hood. Hook a timing light up to either #1 or #4, start the engine, aim the light at the damper, rotate distributor until the timing is at 10* BTDC. Tighten the ONE AND ONLY distributor bolt. Double check the timing. Shut off engine.

Remove timing light, re-connect the connector, close the hood. OK, maybe 10 or 15 minutes if you take your time.

And folks wonder why my cars never go to a mechanic... It was well worth learning this stuff and just doing it myself.

Have you asked the mechanic to check the resistance of the injectors? Heck for what you have put out already, just buy a set yourself along with the tools to change them and get-it-done.

RBob.

 

No they aren't just resetting the timing they are taking the cover off and visually inspecting it and possibly putting on a new chain.

And no I didn't ask him to do anything with the injectors yet, if hes still having trouble with them after he gets the timing done then I'll say something but I'm sure that he'll already know whats up with them, but if not, I'll get new ones within a few weeks anyway just to have the piece of mind that they're good. Hell for all the new stuff that I've put under my hood I might as well have done a rebuild of the d**n thing

 

You don't have a timing chain replacement listed in any of your posts. Was it replaced previously? If not then the CAM timing isn't off and is not the issue.

From the list of parts already replaced your car is being 'shotgunned'. This term is used when parts are thrown at a car hoping that one of them will fix the issue.

To me it looks like Mr. Goodwrench can't figure it out either, so he too is taking the same approach. As for the timing chain and the CAM timing, do a compression check. That will tell you whether the CAM timing is off or not.

That only takes about 20 minutes tops. Note that it doesn't take 5 hours to R&R the timing cover to check the CAM timing the hard way.

And to check the slack in the chain, again, easy to do without removing anything but the distributor cap. Also note that the DISTRIBUTOR timing can be set correctly with the CAM timing set where ever.

As far as some of the parts that have been replaced so far, no problem, they are a good idea to replace on a regular basis: plugs, wires, fuel & oil filters (and oil), cap & rotor, all a good idea for general maintenance items.

RBob.

 

Yeah, thats what the list of previously replaced items were, maintenance. I did most of that myself. I'm going to call the dealer soon here anyway and see how far theyre along on it, I cant really do anything about them checking the timing because they started it at about 4:30 yesterday and they close at 6 and show up at 8 am and its almost 11 right now, so when I know that theyve been working on it long enough to get it done like they said it would, ill call them and see if they got it to fire correctly. Maybe I will just have to learn to do all this myself, those were my intentions before all this happened anyway but now its just a few days shy of not having my car for 3 weeks and im out a grand to get a car running that I only paid 1350 for. Oh well, its my Camaro, its my dream car, its my first car, and I'll do whatever it takes to keep it on the road as along as I possibly can. I just cant believe that I'm only 17 and paying for all this.....

 

that car will mean more to you cause your only 17 and trying to keep it on the road as long as possible. I commend you for being 17 and wanting a third gen, I don't know of too many teenagers that would want a car that is reaching 20 years old most are going to go for newer cars (imports, mustangs, etc)

 

Yeah man I know, all of my friends have new Cavaliers or Cobalts or Mustangs and you wouldn't even believe how many imports there are in my high school parking lot. But I'm the only Camaro And let alone the only third gen!

 

I just got off the phone with the garage and its been raining really hard here all day long and apparently they have 5 inches of water in their shop, and they didnt even start the timing like they said they were going to last night, and they dont know it theyre going to be able to continue working on my car today or any car for much longer because of the rain! I cannot believe this, now I'm going to have to wait until monday to get it back because their service department is only open on saturday for oil changes.......I'm going to hurt somebody....

 

If they didn't start on the car can you just get it back as-is? As I mentioned if the timing chain was never touched it isn't going to be the issue. And if it was already replaced I'd sure as heck want a compression check done first to prove that it was installed a tooth or two (??) off.

I see getting the car back without R&R'ing the timing chain as a cost saving measure.

RBob.

 

The last garage that had it took the cover off and looked at it and they couldnt tell that something was wrong, the dealer thinks that it jumped a tooth or two, or its off a few degrees. i dont know what its deal is, now they can get it to start, but it wont stay running, it stops after a few seconds......

 

they did a compression test and it had good compression on all cylinders.......so what your saying is that you dont think i have a timing issue?

 

I called the dealer, I dont have a timing issue, they looked for bad injectors and found 2 bad injectors on the passenger side, so thats cylinders 1 and 3 i do believe, hes gonna call me back with a price on the injectors and hope fully i can get my car back before i have to go to work at 3! WOOHOOO!!!! THANK YOU GUYS SO MUCH!!!!

 

Correct, with good compression there is nothing wrong with the cam timing. Not only that but the 3.1's use steel upper and lower gears. Not the plastic coated upper that wears away and jump time.

RBob.

 

Well, it is good news that it'll be fixed. The pessimism in me would like to ask if you suggested it to them or did they figure it out on their own?

RBob.

 

I talked to them and said something about the compression and if it has good compression why am i having timing issues? and the said that he would look at the possibility of something else and i told him to check the fuel injectors, and he called me back a bit later and said that he found 2 bad injectors.....Rbob your my hero!

 

ok then so this hole time it was the injectors then? I might have to check mine and see if thats the problem....any of you guys know how we can check them with out pulling them out?

Any old or new tricks to check these out?


Thanks guys and hang in there FireInMe17

 

Once you get it back you'll have to let us know how she runs. It should be better then before all the trouble started.

RBob.

 

You don't need to remove the injectors. You do need to move the plenum out of the way. Then unplug them and test them with a DVM. Unfortunately, even when bad they don't always measure low. At first they are so intermittent that the issue may only be the occasional rough running and surging.

Moving the plenum can be interesting. Stock there is coolant running through the TB. So it may be best to unbolt that from the plenum and leave it in place. Other then that it is straight forward.

Unbolt the A/C brace and remove, then the cable brackets, then the plenum bolts. Lift the plenum off (I probably forgot a step in there). The injectors are now easy to access.

If anyone does want to pull the injectors, DO NOT unbolt the fuel lines from the fuel rail block. Just unbolt the block and lift it up. Rotate the injector clips and remove them. Remove injectors, use some oil on the new injector o-rings, insert new injectors, re-install clips.

Carefully push injectors & block back into place into manifold. Re-install the fuel rail block bolts.

At this time it is best to do a key-on to run the fuel pump and check for leaks. Easy to cut an o-ring which will create a spray of fuel. Then just put the plenum back on along with the rest of the stuff.

Note that the top of the lower intake collects a lot of debris. Just the design of the intake. Once the plenum if off it is a good idea to remove most of this debris. Compressed air works to blow it off. Otherwise it can fall into the injector openings and create problems.

RBob.

 

So this is what the dealer is going to charge me 1200 to do? And they say that it needs a new computer too, but it shouldnt take them 10 hours like they said it would to do this......

 

Yes, that is what the dealer is going to do. The 10 hours is a bit much (by at least 3 times). I also wouldn't have the ECM replaced. The odds that the injector driver was damaged is small. Not worth having a known good ECM swapped for one that may have other issues.

Besides, your ECM will go to a re-man shop, and if the driver is OK, the ECM goes right back out. So you could end up with an ECM that already went through what yours went through.

RBob.

 

oh dang...lol

 

I'm telling them to do the injectors first and then try it, I'm not paying for a computer that I might not need....

 

I figured it was the injectors as I stated before. $1200? Geez. I'm glad I learned how to do everything also, i'll never take my car to a mechanic or dealership for that matter.

 

ok so i need your guy's help again, i got the car back today and it started up just fine and drove really nice, until i was almost home and it just shut off on the road like it did before.......

i paid the dealer 927 dollars to fix it this time, they did not put in a new computer b/c i told them to do the injectors before they swapped out my ecm to try and confirm that it was bad or not.....

does it sound like some more injectors went bad, or did the computer finally die? HELP!!!!

 

Could be either one. Or something else. I take it they only replaced the two injectors? Is there spark at the coil and a plug or two?

If there is spark what happens if a fuel is sprayed/added/poured into the TB?

RBob.

 

They only replaced two, but i couldnt take the spark plug out and check for spark on the side of the road so i dont know

Heres the way i see it, either they fix it and im not paying....or im getting my money back

 

wow.....ok so made it work for a short time and now your stranded...

Those dogs. . . short fixed seems like what they did.

Have those dogs pay for towing and have them fixed it...they were the last to fix it.


And please keep us in the loop....this is good stuff...lol

 

Ok so I got the car back today and it runs fine and its running great just like it did before.....they tried telling me that a spark plug wire got melted up against one of my manifolds thats were apparently hot enough the do such a thing....but i checked all the wires and i have autolites so unless they went out and bought a set, they didnt replace any of them....so they did something to it and didnt check it and it was completely their fault, but they didnt want to tell me what it was other than it was their fault....so idk what they did to it, but the new injectors made it run again, except now it idles faster and i can hear a click from under the hood....so idk but it runs and it runs good and i got it up over 100 again tonight

 

Not a big deal, they are just trying to save face. Probably a connector or such wasn't quite plugged in all the way and came loose. Mechanics and come backs are not good. So a simple story covers a lot.

Anyway, you say that it is running good. That's the end goal which was reached.

As for the higher idle, it may now be the correct idle speed. They do idle higher then the typical SBC. And don't go by the tach, they are always way off.

The injectors make a slight ticking sound. Almost like a sewing machine.

RBob.

 

RBob what are the odds of it being a problem with the ignition Module?...would that have anything to do with it also.

I'm very sure I'm having the same problem as our camaro friend here but just ticked off on how much a injector is EEERRRRRRRR