Jonboy2312

I've been having trouble with this for over a year now... This is going to be a long post, but maybe some of this info on the circumstances will help determine what the problem is?

Ever since last fall, it felt like my car lost a bit of power. I fixed up broken vacuum lines (the two coming out of the rubber plug at the top of the intake/plenum assembly) but I have no idea if this was related or not - it seemed they crumbled while I was looking for problems, not before. Fixing that helped a bit, but not much.

During all this time, I've been struggling with a stubborn exhaust leak between the right exhaust manifold and the y-pipe. It just keeps coming back...

There was nothing really *terrible* going on, so I made a trip from Montreal to Ottawa in summer - that finally threw code 44. The car lost most of the power and was nearly unable to climb hills. It would rev high but just wouldn't go. Tapping the o2 sensor solved the problem.

I used the car on a daily basis for my commute. It would work just fine for the duration a trip to work, and then the trip back 9 hours later. Sure, it would have plenty of power in the first few minutes, which would drop a bit later, but overall, it was tolerable. However, if I drove it again soon afterwards, power would drop a bit more, then a bit more, and then it would suddenly fall far, and I would get codes 33, 34, or both. The next morning everything would be just fine once again, and the whole cycle would start over once again.

Eventually the MAF sensor failed completely (permanent Check Engine light), so I disconnected it and the car ran FAR better. Of course, I installed a replacement right away (reconditioned). The Check Engine light went off right away, but the car ran TERRIBLE. So I disconnected the sensor again. It was better when I tried the MAF again on day 2, though, and pretty much OK on day 3.

So I would drive normally with MAF connected.

However... once again, extended drives would result in sudden power drop, and codes 33 and 34. Basically, every time I would end up driving the car again soon after coming home from work.

Soon afterwards, the new MAF failed just like the old one.

Since it was autumn already, we simply drove the car to my father-in-law's place (some 130km) for storage, MAF disconnected.
Ran just fine most of the journey, then some 80 kilometers into it the same thing happened even though it was running with no MAF. No power, and the car struggled really hard to climb hills - it would just slow down to a crawl. Worse still, there was a nasty burning smell (sort of plasticky/rubbery), which would clear the moment we cleared the hill.

So how exactly is the 2.8 MPFI V6 expected to run with no MAF? Is it normal that performance drops gradually to a point where (after approximately 30 minutes to an hour, or about 100 kilometers on a highway) it can't climb a hill? just revs madly, yet slows down to a crawl, pumps out madly hot exhaust fumes and smells like something's burning?

Is this condition caused by lack of MAF, or... is it this condition itself that destroys my MAF (I've gone through two...)

Cat is new, fuel pump works for sure, the codes I get are 33, 34 (when the MAF was failing after a long drive - it would always be fine on short daily drives, like commuting, but would go insane after extended periods of driving, finally dying completely) and I previously had 44 as well (which went away as the 02 sensor was given a bit of 'shock therapy'). I know I have at least one leaky injector (hard start soon after a drive, but perfect instant start after it sits for many hours).

Jonboy2312

BUMP.

Come on... nobody has any ideas? Anything might help, even if it's vague...

Jonboy2312

Gee, don't everybody post at once :P

Anyway... I've done a lot of reading and thinking and I realized the car is most certainly running lean. The exhaust gasses are far hotter than I remember. And the way it runs... well, just see for yourselves:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flkaHZZKFnY

Throttle response is bad, and it backfires through the intake. You can clearly hear a couple of loud thumps inside the plenum in the video.

I examined the previous MAF and lo and behold, the film is all warped and wavy, sort of in concentric ripples. It looks like heat damage to me.

Okay, so let's see...

1. I know the car is running lean (sharp and metallic tone, rather than the throatier tone I remember, hot exhaust, terrible economy etc).

2. I don't think there's any problem with the fuel pump. How else would it be able to pump out 50 liters of gas in about 120 kilometers? That's what, around 5 or 6 MPG??? it's a LOT of fuel being pumped out
The pump primes quickly, with a healthy tone, and the car fires up like a dream every time - just check the video... (actually the first time you see it starting in the video - it's for the first time since October). The fuel is delivered allright, it's just wasted somehow.

3. There's audible backfiring through the intake, and since my dead MAF shows what looks like heat damage, I would guess the intake backfiring is pretty bad, or pretty consistent, or both.
Now, I don't think poor fuel delivery itself would cause this (or am I wrong?). logic says that for this to occur the valves must still be open when ignition occurs. So this seems to point at...

... A timing issue.

The first time I remember the engine getting so boggy was after my dizzy was replaced. They did mess around with the timing for sure, since at first the bugger wouldn't start at all (it was badly off). I remember them finally poking a rod through a spark plug hole to determine piston position. Then it fired up, and they fine tuned the timing from there... Not sure what method they used. back then we just assumed it was a vacuum leak, since I did snap the two hoses coming out of the big rubber plug on top of the intake. One of them goes to the FPR.

Those hoses were fixed, but there wasn't much improvement. In fact, them cracking in the first place didn't make things any worse, either.

So... timing?

Am I on the right track here? Am I thinking correctly, or did I get something wrong?

Gumby

repost in computer or ..... section.

this V6 section is a ghost town compared to before the place got sold.

Use ot have to check in 2-3 times a day to keep up, now I can go weeks and miss nothing.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

How old is the catalytic converter? If it's original, I'd look into replacing it. What you're describing sounds like the cat is clogged, and exhaust is backing up into the cylinders and intake.

Yes, incorrect timing could have something to do with this, but I would look at the converter first, as I said above, the symptoms build over time until the engine has no power whatsoever because there is more exhaust (unburnable) than there is burnable fuel/air in the cylinders. Check both your ignition timing and timing chain for proper settings.

Jonboy2312

Thanks for the input! I should have mentioned that the cat is new, though. I've already had this idea (I was alarmed by the hot passenger side floor) and replaced it with a brand new one last summer. There was a little bit of improvement but my main problem persists, no difference there.

Hey... could it be an EGR problem, by any chance?

EDIT:

Wait a sec... the EGR reintroduces part of the exhaust fumes back into the cylinders, right? And if it's stuck wide open, more and more of these gases keep adding up in an endless loop. And I have to wait overnight for the car to be properly driveable again, because it takes the fumes that long to leave the engine?

It really feels like we're getting somewhere with this.

And I DO recall code 32 (EGR failure) coming up a couple of times last year, but I ignored it as a potential side-effect of a more serious issue I was struggling with back then (random intermittent shutdowns while driving - which in the end turned out to be a bad ignition switch... after replacing the coil, ECM, entire dizzy, plugs, cables etc - all the wrong things, LOL). 32 would come up only if I made a sharp turn and applied a lot of throttle (I admit, I like to kick the tail out in corners sometimes...) - the engine would stop for half a second or so and then start right up again, but code 32 would show up.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Well, you see, on average, only about 7-10% of the exhaust stream is routed back into the engine. Which means that the rest goes out the tail pipe(s), or should, at least. Next time you drive in the dark, crawl under your car to see what part of the exhaust is red hot, meaning that there is a restriction there. It will either be a clogged cat or muffler, I'm willing to bet, most likely the muffler, since you said the cat is less than a year old (unless you're running SUPER rich).

If your EGR was stuck wide open when hot, you would know it when you come to a stop, because it would stall. Not just run real bad, it would stall right out. However, you can check this at home with a screwdriver and the engine running by pushing up on the diaphragm inside the valve. If the engine stumbles and possibly stalls, the EGR flow is working. However, it's what happens when you release the valve that is important. If the valve doesn't return to its "home" position and the engine continues to run like crap, look into replacing it.

Also, code 32 doesn't necessarily mean the EGR has failed. The code is set on our sixes by the sensor located at the far side of the EGR solenoid/coil bracket, that thing with 4 wires in it. If that sensor does NOT detect a vacuum signal coming out of the UPPER port on the EGR solenoid, it will set a code 32. This means that there may not be any vacuum signal to the solenoid in the first place, the vacuum hose could be disconnected or broken, or there could be a fault in the sensor. BTW, I just looked at the price of that SOB (the entire solenoid/sensor assembly, known as the vacuum regulator valve or EVRV) and it's over $80. When I replaced mine back 5 years ago, it was a little over half that. This blasted economy!

:edit: To answer one of your questions above, with the MAF disconnected, you can expect the engine to run like garbage. This is because the computer is merely guessing how much fuel to put into the cycles based on TPS position and the CTS and IAT temperatures. The ECM isn't taking into account humidity, altitude, or anything like that, which will allow it to fine-tune the fuel mixture. This is known as limp-home mode.

And another thing: Have you checked the signal coming out of your CTS? If the sensor is bad or disconnected, the ECM will think that the engine temperature is about -140*F or something like that, and you will run VERY rich.

Pyronight

It is probably the same issue I had as you. A bad Cat. I had just replaced mine and due to a cracked exhaust manifold it was causing "Lean Conditions" to be read by my O2 sensor so it was sending more fuel down and it was igniting in the Cat. Now mind you I would only lose power after about 20 min and my car had completely warmed up. Once I replace my Cat and Manifold my power came back. So even though it may be new I really do think thats your problem.

Jonboy2312

Thanks, Maverick! I'll definitely check if the muffler is clogged. it certainly DOES seem like exhaust leaks happen way too easily... Things are being tightened, clamped, welded, yet gasses still bust out between the y-pipe and the manifold. Also, when the new cat was installed, the y-pipe managed to slide out despite being tightly clamped - it's like there was too much pressure. So they put a little spot-weld there, too. With the Y-pipe slid out and thus unrestricted exhaust flow, I remember the car being just as SLOW as it was loud... so maybe that's not it?

The cat is definitely new, I assisted in taking it out of the packaging and saw them install it.

So if it's really exhaust blockage (that would explain why the gasses keep blowing out leaks), it's gotta be after the cat. Maybe I'll try a >1 hour drive with the pipe cut off just before the muffler and see if the power loss happens again.

There are some more odd things that might have a role in all this. First, the temperature sensor. It works, but after some time during extended driving, I eventually see it at 0. I never managed to notice the exact moment when it falls, I think it's a smooth, slow decrease rather than a sudden drop, but I'm not sure. it's been like this since I first bought the car - and it WAS replaced because of this. The replacement acts exactly the same, though. Always on a highway, too. Maybe it's really that cool, with the speed of air flow, cooling fan etc?

I know it works in full range, as the mechanics once fired the car up after replacing my water pump, but forgot that all the coolant was drained. They shut it off right away but the gauge went all the way up - so it certainly works. I just don't know why it eventually drops like that.

But if a bad temperature sensor causes the ECM to think the engine is cold and run rich, shouldn't it thus run more or less OK in WOT? For me, it runs the WORST in wide open throttle. It's like there's more power at about 3/4 (though still very little), and it completely falls on its face in WOT. Can't be a bad TPS, because it runs great in the entire range before all this nonsense starts...

The cooling fan comes on the moment I turn the engine on, but this started many months after all the other symptoms started, so I don't know if it's related.

As for the EGR valve... should there be any change in idle if I unplug any of the vacuum hoses connected to it? Absolutely nothing happens if I do that.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

First, there's 2 coolant temp "sensors". One is for the computer, to the right of the thermostat housing, and the other is for the gauge, behind the air conditioning compressor in the corner of the driver's side head.

Keep in mind that the computer only ADDS fuel based on what it initially sees from the CTS and MAF (or MAP) at startup. So, if it still thinks that the engine is at -140* and you WOT it, it's going to increase the pulse width to the injectors accordingly.

With the coolant fan running when the key is on, that is another symptom of a bad CTS. Had a customer's car do that. Hooked up the scantool, the CTS showed -140* (or was it lower than that), replaced the CTS with one I had leftover from another project, and his poor fuel economy (blowing carbon out of the tailpipe) and constant coolant fan stopped.

:edit: The EGR only receives vacuum flow when the throttle is opened. Therefore, you won't notice a thing at idle. Even if you DO disconnect the valve itself, you'll still have a vacuum signal to the EVRV. If you don't have the signal at the EVRV, you'll still end up with the code 32. Kind of a lose-lose thing.

Also forgot one other thing. Your 86 has the adjustable TPS. Make sure that the closed-throttle signal is at around .55 VDC. A misadjusted TPS can cause a lot of problems as well.

Jonboy2312

I didn't know that So i guess it was the CTS that was replaced. So I guess the other sensor for the gauge is just thrown off by air rush at high speeds. There's no compressor blocking the way, a previous owner removed all the AC stuff.

So it'll end up badly overdoing it. I see... I'll definitely check and replace this sensor before attempting to drive back to Montreal. Can't be too expensive.

Yup, I'll replace the bugger and see what happens. maybe the garage in Mansonville (where my car is stored for winter) has a scanner so that they can check it.

Umm... what's EVRV? Sorry, I'm not too good with these acronyms.

Will do! Thanks a million for all this advice. You rock!

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Electronic Vacuum Regulator Valve... Computer controls the ground to this to open or close vacuum flow to the EGR valve based on throttle position, engine load, and coolant temperature.

:edit: And I have no idea how much that bugger could cost you in Canadian. Last I checked, it was around $80 here. And the CTS is probably around $18 for you. Also, check the connector on the gauge sender... If it's like mine was, it's pretty nasty. And, as a result, the corrosion, which increases resistance on it's own, adds to the problem of increased resistance at higher engine bay temperatures.

Jonboy2312

I've just remembered an extra detail - the first time this power loss problam started, which was about 2/3 of the way from Montreal to Ottawa, I did get code 44... so, lean afterall?

All those faults with my car are supposed to make it run rich (MAF, CTS), yet I've never seen any black smoke out of it. White, if anything.

This is weird...

God, I'm so tired of this... it's like there's a bunch of overlapping problems and it feels like if I don't have them fixed all at once, they just keep coming back (like the burnt MAF). And I just don't have the money to deal with it all at the same time.
I wish someone could throw in a cheap, simple, carbed 305 in there for me, LOL
I'm so sick of all those failing sensors and crap

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

It's possible you have a lean condition. To verify, pull a couple plugs. They'll instantly tell you if you're running lean enough to cause pinging or, worse, detonation. If you're running THAT lean, it's best to get it fixed BEFORE you cook a couple of pistons and your cylinder heads. However, with the exhaust leaks that keep coming back, I'd still look for a restriction in the exhaust, probably at the muffler.

Also, to look for a leaking injector, remove the upper plenum and unbolt both the fuel rail and the cold start injector, lift the assembly to where you can see it, and pressurize the system. Also use a fuel pressure gauge when you do this so you can see whether it's the fuel injectors, FPR, or otherwise that could be causing your drop in fuel pressure. The fuel system should hold between 40 and 50 PSI for 20 minutes without losing 1 PSI of pressure. If the pressure drops, get out a pair or 2 of locking pliers (or other pliers) so you can pinch off the fuel hoses. Find a way to get a soft grip on the hoses and clamp off first the return hose and then the pressure hose. If the pressure holds when you clamp off the return line, the FPR is suspect. If the pressure holds when you clamp off the pressure line, the check valve in the fuel pump is suspect (or you have a line leak). If the pressure still drops with BOTH pinched off, your fuel injectors are to blame (be it one or more of the individual injectors or the cold start injector).

Jonboy2312

Thank you! This is fantastic info! I'll definitely try to find the fault using the method you described. I'm feeling way better about this now, I'm quite sure I'll finally find the problem now.

Now I just can't wait to get started

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

When you pull the plugs (do this first because they are the easiest), if they are BONE WHITE on the insulators, or if they look like they've been, well, in an explosion (and this is EASY to tell), DON'T run the engine until you get this figured out. Do a fuel pressure test first, and then go from there to the MAP and other things.

AM91 is currently selling off parts of his 3.1 because of severe detonation problems, just as a heads-up.

Jonboy2312

Outs... alright then, no running until this is sorted out, then. I know a white cast on spark plugs means it's been running lean. What else am I looking for? melted tips?

That video I posted earlier, of the last time I ran it, can you tell anything from the sound? I know the damn exhaust leak is blocking everything out, but...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flkaHZZKFnY

When I visited the previous time, in early December, I had the engine warm up properly - and I thought I heard an occasional misfire (like a little stumble in the rhythm, right?) and also what sounded like pellets hitting hard objects ("DING") - I thought it was dirt or rust particles coming off the pulleys and hitting things... now I'm not so sure (pinging?)

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Not so much melted tips as it looks like the center electrode has been blown off, occasionally with the insulation around it. Because detonation is just that, detonation (an explosion). Detonation is an uncontrolled burn, whereas an engine is typically used to having a controlled burn from one side of the cylinder to the other.

AM91 and the other guys would know more of what pinging and detonation sound like as they have experienced it. I typically run the opposite, being very rich (and do now). I CAN tell you what that sounds like, as I have run very rich for a while.

Jonboy2312

Well, there's none of that, thankfully

I've finally been able to go check up on my car again. I drove her out of the temp garage this time so that she could run a lot longer without the exhaust melting (or setting on fire) the plastic floor.

I've made a video where i try to show everything in as much detail as possible - please have a look, I'm sure you'll be able to figure it out for me now

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bcm84CRgZgc

So, my plan for retrieving the car from storage is, well, I detach the muffler and drive it all the way back to Montreal like that (if my eardrums can take it). If the problem doesn't come back - good, it's solved. Either way, it should be pretty much safe to attempt that - it doesn't seem like it was running lean afterall, but I'm no expert - I'll rely on your opinion... there are very good quality macro pictures of the spark plugs in the video.

I'm sorry I'm pestering you so much with this

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

You're running rich, actually. If all of the other 5 plugs are the same color as the #1, then that's one problem. Creating the vacuum leak by removing the plug did 2 things: 1. it raised the fuel pressure momentarily by removing the vacuum source to the fuel pressure regulator, and 2. the extra air entering the engine leaned the fuel mixture enough to run better, if you didn't notice. I'd like a bit longer with that plug in and then out to find a difference.

Yes, that exhaust leak is a pain. My left one is leaking again because I had to drop the trans last week to put the missing plug back in the shift rail hole, and that screwed up the alignment of the pipes where I had the silicone set. Try using plain-jane household silicone caulk (the clear stuff) on the exhaust joints.

Last but not least, the reason that the passenger's side exhaust stream seemed darker was because there is more flow coming out the driver's side than the passenger's side. The inlet to the muffler is on the pass side, and the exhaust prefers to go in a straight line (to the driver's side). Having a dual exhaust may seem cooler, but the thing is that it really doesn't work unless you're running either a true y-pipe to the rear or true dual exhaust, both of which even out the flow to both sides.

Jonboy2312

Dang... so it still doesn't tell me why exactly I get my problem after a long drive... Well, I'll try to go through with my plan, at least it'll narrow down the possibilities. And if problems still occur, Mansonville is just 100 clicks from Montreal - that's within CAA's free towing range, LOL.

Actually, I'm glad it's running rich. With a fried, disconnected MAF, it's doing exactly what it should...

I'll fix up that exhaust (new y-pipe at least, or the pacesetter headers) and new muffler (yes, I know the driver side has more pressure, but in other V6s I've seen the difference wasn't that big... I think). And I'll replace the injectors, I know for sure they leak a bit (perfect instant start when the car's been sitting overnight, much harder after a recent drive). A new CTS too, for sure.

Something should finally help. And thank God it's not lean nor detonating

Thank you so much for your time, whatever input you have always helps

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Try a new CTS if you haven't yet, and a temperature sender as well. Like I said before, if the CTS is open, the ECM receives a VERY low temperature reading, and turns both the coolant fan on and seriously richens the fuel mixture.

I agree with you there seems to be some problem with the exhaust. Probably the muffler (based on the fact that the engine only bogs on seriously long drives), but there is a lot of flow, so I can't be sure. The only way to actually test the exhaust pressure is to make a pressure tap that installs in place of the O2S.

:edit: Oh, and the reason why it takes longer to start after a recent drive may be the fact that the cylinders are partially filled with exhaust gas that they can't get rid of, so there is less room for the A/F mixture to enter and properly get things moving.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

I forgot to mention one thing. There is a seller on eBay that is selling NEW AC/Delco MAF sensors, for CHEAP. I got mine there, and everything is working nicely now (except the squealing belt tensioner pulley and the driver's side exhaust leak ). Anyways, log into eBay and look up a seller named beckysbids. The MAFs are for the base model Firebird, so they have that plastic elbow on them to join up with the air filter can. This is easily removed with a little patience and a hammer.

Jonboy2312

Thanks, I think I've found it

http://cgi.ebay.ca/PONITAC-FIREBIRD-...=item1dd7db651

I'm not sure about putting it on just yet, until I've found the source of the problems - I don't want to melt a third MAF

Thanks again!

Jonboy2312

if weather permits, I'll be taking the car out of storage on the 20th to start the repairs at last.

A few new thoughts, though... when the car showed those symptoms for the first time I had code 44 - lean condition. It SEEMED like a lean condition, with super-hot tailpipes and all, but then again the fuel consumption was just insane, so it didn't add up.

I've read somewhere that hollowing out a catalytic converter will mess up the 02 reading and the engine will end up running a bit too lean. So it means that a more free - flowing exhaust causes a rich reading, right? Would a too restrictive exhaust cause a LEAN reading and thus code 44? If it can, then that would be my last piece of puzzle falling in place

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

1. Code 44 is set when the O2S voltage is below .2VDC for more than one minute. This doesn't necessarily mean the system is lean. Yes, it usually means a lean condition, but it can also mean that the O2S isn't putting out a useable voltage signal. The connector for the O2S could have gotten melted to the exhaust pipe and shorted out.

2. I've had both a test pipe (no cat in any way, shape or form) and a hollowed cat with my Flowmaster when I had it, and I've never thrown a code 44. Code 45 (rich exhaust), but NEVER a code 44. Besides, following the logic of that argument, the restricted/plugged exhaust would cause a RICH condition and a code 45 because there is more exhaust in the pipes than usual.

3. Also, these codes can and have been thrown by an issue with the MAF sensor. Mine usually throws a code 45 when the MAF sensor goes out, not a code 33 or 34 (it's only been this last time that I've gotten the code 33).

Jonboy2312

So today was the big day.

I finally took my car out of storage. I brought some manifold putty with me to seal up the connection between the right manifold and y-pipe, only to find out it didn't do a thing. So I grabbed a little mirror and examined the other side.

No wonder gaskets or putty didn't seem to help - there's a penny-sized hole on the underside of the y-pipe, right before it connects to the manifold.

And it seems it fried my starter motor

I checked and tightened all the sensor connections. One of the two relays on the driver side firewall was a bit loose (the more recessed one, closer to the fender). There's also another plug that looks like it goes in a third identical relay - but there's no third relay and the plug is dangling loose. It had at least one green cable in it. What's that plug for?

And finally, I've done one last thing I could do before attempting to drive >140km to the mechanic. I've put Seafoam in the brake booster vacuum hose and in the fuel tank. Since the oil was replaced just before storage I didn't put any in there. So about 2/3 of the bottle went into the fuel tank, which was a bit less than half full. Then I topped it off with premium at the nearest gas station, and set off home, escorted by another car.

I had serious trouble climbing the first hill on the highway again. I had to floor it and managed to climb it in, I think, first gear, with the tach almost in yellow. There was the same alarming burning smell, but it didn't come back again after that. Subsequent hills were a bit better and a while later I finally realized the car was running pretty damn well. Of course throttle/power didn't exactly match (sometimes there was a bit more 'pull' at slightly lower RPM than at WOT, sometimes the other way round - but I don't think I can expect better with a shot MAF, right?)

Glided at full highway cruising speed (sometimes faster) all the way to Montreal island (also pegged the speedo at one point), and then to the other end of the island in order to drop the car off at the shop.

I didn't get the impression of running lean this time, not even for a moment. No heat through the firewall or passenger side floor, and it was running pretty damn well compared to before storage.

There seems to be plenty of flow through the exhaust, so I didn't bother with that.

Anyway, I'll have a new y-pipe, MAF and they'll check all the other sensors. Hopefully whatever it was that caused my two previous MAFs to melt went away.

Anyway, OF COURSE I'd film the smoke show, LOL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPRkowEOjz0

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

When you go to replace the y-pipe, grab a pair of FelPro 60538 gaskets, which will seal better than the cast iron pieces of junk that are like $6 cheaper (in American, of course) because they're compressible. Then, your O2S will be a lot happier because it won't be reading full lean all of the time with that hole in the y-pipe. I was in the same boat, except the PO of my Bird broke the thing right in half at the joint where the 2-pipes connect together, and welded it back to one piece except for about a 1-inch hole at the very top of the pipe.

Between the y-pipe and the MAF, your car should be running pretty good, and hopefully now you know what was causing the exhaust leak, and hopefully nothing is backed up with carbon, like the cat. Also, don't forget to at least have the starter tested. With that much heat from the exhaust blasting on it, there's no telling what condition it's in.

Glad you found the problem, finally.

Jonboy2312

Well, I certainly HOPE this cures the problem. Still doesn't explain how come the car ran a lot better today, since i didn't plug the hole at all.

All I did was, well, I tightened a plug and ran Seafoam through the engine.

So maybe it cleaned out a problem in the fuel system. Or maybe it's the much better fuel I've put in.

The starter is almost certainly bad - just have a look at the video. Furst turn of the key is usually just a click. usually it fires up on the second, but sometimes it takes dozens or more.

Oh well. One way or another, I feel very optimistic. And God, it was AWESOME being able to drive it again

Jonboy2312

Woohoo!

New y-pipe is in place. The old one wasn't really perforated all the way through (apparently there are two layers around the funnel areas) but the passenger side funnel was really badly worn. The leak has been there for so long it caused some pitting in the manifold, which had to be machined.

In the end, it's sealed up well now and purrs like a kitten.

As for the blowing MAFs - apparently the one currently in the car is perfectly fine! It's just the cable that was worn and got shorted where it rubs against the radiator. Hurray!

All sensors are reading correctly. The cooling fan is still on at all times even though the CTS is fine. Bad fan switch? Since it's a summer car, this is not an issue anyway.

There is, however, one bit of bad news, and it's my own fault. When storing the car, I've sprayed some rust proofing around wheel arches, panel edges, even around the trunk lid. The Rust Check product worked beautifully - still nice and oily and safe for paint as advertised. But the substitute from my father-in-law (Rust Check ran out), which appeared to be the same thing, also labeled as rustproofing, also for use on cars... it hazed my beautiful new clearcoat badly When I saw this the first time I checked up on the car in December, I thought it just left a bit of a white coating as it dried, assuming this is what it was supposed to do...

But it doesn't fully come off in wash, so the clearcoat must have been chemically damaged The white powder comes off, but the paint underneath is left dull.

It seems superficial, though. Oh well... Anyway, a year ago when the exterior restoration was finished, I was told to wet-sand the car and buff it (due to dust bits that got onto paint here and there - the garage didn't have a proper booth...). I never got around to it (too afraid to mess up). I guess this mishap must have been a sign from above to finally go through with it. I don't have much choice now.

So... 1500 grit sandpaper and some polishing compound? By hand or by a polishing attachment on an electric drill?

This might just turn out to be an enjoyable thing to do this saturday.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

FYI, the ENTIRE factory y-pipe (don't know about aftermarket) is 2-layered, which is why my PO couldn't fix it right.

As for the coolant fan, does or did your car have A/C? There is a switch on the lines that will make the fan run all of the time if disconnected. Also, check the fan switch, which is right near where your exhaust problem was, in the back corner of the head. The wire may have gotten shorted to the block or something due to the exhaust heat.

Jonboy2312

Yup, it used to have AC, but it's been completely removed except for one bracket on the front of the block, driver side. There's a flimsy green wire going over it with a connector in the middle... no idea what it's for.

Now this is very likely... can you explain to me where it is exactly?

Thanks a million for all your help so far

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Actually, it's more likely that your rad fan is running because of the missing A/C switch that had previously been installed in one of the lines running down the passenger's side frame rail. Find the connector for this switch, it will be closer to the battery than the heater box, cut the connector off, and wire the 2 wires together. I doubt you'll want to pick through your harness to find the wire you're supposed to ground to do this properly, but this new connection can just be taped over and stuffed into the harness on that side.

Anyways, for your second question, the fan switch is in the same position that the gauge sender is on in the driver's side head, but in the back of the pass side head by the lifting eye. It will have a green/white wire with a connector on it similar to the brake warning switch, which is squeezed to remove.

:edit: And, that bracket you mentioned? Was that the compressor bracket? What color is the connector on that wire? If it's a weirdly-shaped white connector, that would be the wire for the temperature gauge or light. You can remove the bracket (unless you have v-belts, which I don't know about) and remount the power steering, run a shorter belt, and get rid of that extra bracket.

Jonboy2312

This is the empty bracket and the weird cable (the green one in it):



Whatever the solution for the cooling fan was, it used to work as you'd normally expect - off when cold, and would only turn on when the engine was getting hot. It stopped doing that late last summer, and's been perma-on ever since.

I doubt it's related to my problems, those started way earlier.

So, after a couple of drives (including one along half the island, some 30km or so), I can say it does run better, but that's still not it During the longer drive, I noticed that when stopped at a red light (in drive and holding the brake), the idle would fluctuate a bit - above or under 500. The fluctuation would increase until it dips so far under 500 that the engine shudders a bit as if it wanted to stall, the SES light comes on, with code 44 (well, now that the MAF is back online I guess i can finally get the real codes...). Then the light goes off and the idle stabilizes (a bit higher).
This happened twice during the drive, and fuel consumption seemed atrocious (a quarter tank to cover 30 kilometers???).

Can't possibly be lean, as 44 suggests, if it uses that much gas.

Power seems to be lacking, and there's a bit more pull at near-WOT than at WOT.

Oh well... at least it's better than it was!

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

That wire IS the wire that goes on the sender/switch in that corner of the head, hiding behind the bracket. Bet that if you put it on there your gauge will behave (if you have one).

When you replaced the y-pipe, did you remember to replace the O2S? If not, it could be contaminated, for one thing. Do you have any other pre-cat exhaust leaks?

What is the resistance of the coolant temp sensor, located under the throttle body? Replace the spark plugs and then see what they look like after a week. If they're black again, something is up with the O2S circuit if it keeps throwing code 44 at you (the spark plug color cancels out the O2S reading since the color contradicts the code for lean exhaust).

We'll work on getting the engine running right before we work on the annoying coolant fan.

Jonboy2312

Yup, I do have a temperature gauge - it's a completely stock cluster. The gauge kinda works... it seems like ot works when the car has been started and just sitting, idling. Or when moving about slowly. Once iI'm on a highway, it shows zero and stays there.

It was my trusted mechanic doing that, not me. I believe the sensor remained the same, I'm very constrained by a super-tight budget (my wife is still in university and so can't really contribute...), but it's becoming my primary suspect now.

I'm afraid I can't anwer this exactly... no tools nor skill. But my mechanic checked it for me as I requested, he said it was reading perfectly within logical values.

Outsch... I'm afraid I'm all out of money for now, new spark plugs will have to wait till next pay day. I'll have to get a correct socket, too (I used my father-in-law's tools last time). I've been looking in Canadian Tire but they just have huge, pricey sets. All i want is just one bloody socket to get my sparkplus out on my own... Do you think NAPA would have a SIMPLE tool for that?

If I had a tool, then what I could do for now is to clean the soot off with a toothbrush (and check for glazing), reinstall the same plugs, and then check if they look any different after a long drive... That's the best i can think of for now, but I'll need that elusive socket tool

Aye.

And thank you so much for putting up with all this, LOL

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

5/8" deep socket or plug socket is all you need. If you have other things with engines, you may also need a 13/16" and/or 21mm plug or deep sockets (seen a Nissan I6 with 21mm plugs), but you only need a 5/8" plug socket for your car.

Jonboy2312

Yeah, I know exactly which one I need. but small kits don't seem to have that size socket , or only have a short one. So far I've only seen the correct sockets in large kits that are $100 or more...

I'll browse some more this weekend, maybe I'll find a place that would let me buy those individually.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Go to an auto parts store (other than NAPA unless you want to pay 3X as much), they should be hanging on a pin all on their own. If you have a Sears up there, or can get onto their website, you can get one for about $5 US, I think. You don't need a whole set. Unless, of course, you don't have much and you DO need a set...

Jonboy2312

Woohoo! I actually found that dedicated tool in Canadian Tire. It was hidden pretty deep in a locked glass cabinet behind individual socket bits Score!

So I'll pull 2 plugs Sunday evening, passenger side front and back, clean them up and reinstall them, and see what they look like after a couple of commutes to work (13 clicks in one direction, heavy rush hour traffic). Would that be a valid test?

by the way, code 44 didn't come up again since that drive home, idle is very calm and stable now. But still very little power, it feels like I'm towing a heavy trailer or something. I thought maybe the e-brake is stuck, but that can't be it since the car rolls on and on and on smoothly when i put it in neutral.

I've made a video today so that you can see how it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fk4JwC7PFpg

Abaout halfway through the road clears up and I floor it, then I do the same on that empty stretch of the road beside the railroad overpass, both ways. It sounds great alright... but is very, very slow. Accelerates like a bus.

An idea came to mind... how about I unhook the battery for a few minutes so that the computer resets? I drove a long distance with no MAF after storage, so maybe it's the computer running the car on wrong data? Is there a specific re-learning procedure?

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

At the very minimum, pull one plug from each side. Each side of the engine is controlled separately, not each injector.

Resetting the ECM is a good thing to do next... No, your 2.8 doesn't require a relearn procedure, just hook the battery back up and crank it up.

Also, try restting the TV cable on the throttle lever. There is a metal tang on the side you push in and puch the cable housing back towards the fuel injector rail, after unhooking the cable from the throttle lever. After you push the cable housing back into the "home" position, then you reconnect the cable end to the throttle lever and get in the car and push the gas pedal as far down as you can. The cable housing will ratchet through the holder and set itself when you push on the gas pedal.

copyfixr

iTrader: (3)

Just subscribing.

Jonboy2312

So I reset the computer (is 3-4 minutes off battery enough?) and cleaned up a couple of spark plugs and drove the Camaro to work today... that's a dozen kilometers (GPS says 16). It drove lazy, to say the least... Slow to rev up, very slow to accelerate. Had to be floored to shift down really low and then maaaaaybe it would go a bit faster (very embarrassing with all that mighty ear-splitting roar and no go...)

After that, I went back to see the mechanic (another dozen kilometers in the opposite direction, nearly 30 away from home). It was during extended drives like this that I saw the worst symptoms last year...

The reason I went there was because my catalytic converter almost came loose (at the back, which would be pretty bad if the catback fell off...). The catback is less than 2 years old, the cat is less than a year old, the y-pipe is brand new. Why does it keep falling apart no matter how well it's bolted, tightened and clamped?

So they re-bolted the coupling for me and... just as i left the garage, the right manifold leak came back and intensified really fast. It's like my exhaust is cursed... There's a custom heat-shield around the coupling now, so it's not going to fry the new starter, but it's very annoying

I really should have ordered those Pacesetter headers... too late now

Anyway, since the garage closed down as i left, i just drove the 30+ kilometers home. And voila! The hateful orange light came on. Car became even slower... I had to floor it to climb ANY incline, and it would actually slow down anyway (unless it was going slow enough to shift down to 1st, then it would sort of maintain speed, snailing uphill roaring like a t-rex, as all those cavaliers and tercels pull away, and people behind me get pissed off and honk...).

Yep, same story as last year

The engine tone at WOT seemed full of immense effort, but would sound quite a bit healthier as I would ease up a little - there would be an easily perceivable jolt of power, too. It's hard to explain... I tried recording the ride a little, but my camera is way too sensitive to noise and you can barely hear the engine.

What a depressing day... Anyway, after I got home I immediately got the code out (well what do you know, 44 again) and after the engine cooled down (and after i sulked in the corner a bit) I pulled the plugs, and what did I find?





Sorry about the oil - seems like there's a small leak from the valve cover dripping over the socket.

Black and sooty AND white and fried at the same time. Wow.

Looks like I was right when I assumed it was leaning out... And code 44 was actually right, too. It's weird, though - the spark plugs get fouled up like crazy and fuel goes down as nobody wants to believe me:



I started the day at half tank. I could almost see the needle move. It runs crazy rich, then. But there's no black smoke at all. I'm not getting the "rich exhaust" code, though... And then it goes lean after a longer drive, with the correct code. Don't mind the speedo, it reads way high. It was actually around 90kph at most (55mph or so?).

So my MAF is back online, but it makes no difference whatsoever. In fact, the car might be a little slower with it on than without it - as in the long return trip from winter storage. Heck, no such problem occured during the no-MAF return trip from storage, over a hundred clicks.

Should I replace the MAF again? What if yet another one gets screwed up? I'd like to be sure first that there's nothing else going on that could damage it. And I need to get that manifold/y-pipe leak fixed... Also, my front right wheel bearing is starting to go (AGAIN!!!!) and I've already exceeded my budget by far, I just have a little bit left for my rent

In other words, this has been an awful, awful, AWFUL day...

Would you have any ideas now that we know it really does lean out? I'd love to replace the MAF, the CTS, the 02, the right manifold and maybe the whole FPR for that matter all in one go... I'm sure this would help. Alas, there's everyday life to pay for... ;_;

I'll give it a shot with no MAF tomorrow, I guess... After refueling again, of course... Oh damn it all :-/

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

We can't do anything without some sort of signal reading out of the MAF since it's suspect. If you have a DMM that will do frequency, measure the freqency coming out of the middle wire in the connector with the MAF connected. If not, you'll need to find a shop with a scantool and ask for a printout or whatever of the engine data. The thing with this is that the MAF and CTS will either confirm or deny the O2S reading, or the O2S reading will confirm or deny that the MAF and/or CTS are good.

Try some locking nuts on the y-pipe connections. And not the nylon kind. These are full metal, grade 8 (SAE grade) nuts that have interference threads that hold. And try some FelPro 60538 gaskets instead of the junk cast iron donuts.

Also, did I ask you what color the trans fluid is yet?

Jonboy2312

There might be a multimeter like that @ my workplace, I'll see what I can do. Frequency on the center cable of the MAF connector. Got it.

Is it okay to do that at idle, or does it have to be some specific RPM?

The transmission fluid is bright red because it's new... Almost all of it leaked out through winter (it wouldn't even show on the dipstick). Now it's full, and with some leak-stopping additive.

I'll definitely ask for those gaskets! Thanks for the part number

I'll ask for locking nuts at the manifold coupling, I guess. Not so sure about the catback coupling... the previous time that came undone the bolts simply snapped. This reminds me... when i replaced the catback soon after having purchased the car, the ***** @ Canadian Tire told me that they had to SHORTEN it because something changed dimensions with age and it didn't want to fit otherwise, blah blah... Maybe that's why??

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

The frequency has to be taken at idle between the middle and the black wires or the frequency won't show. Should be 32Hz at idle (the only way you can test it is at idle because the only other accurate reading is 150Hz at WOT). Any higher and the MAF is bad. If you can do that, you can get a quick reading of the CTS resistance as well (between both terminals here) and compare it to the reading on the gauge or a temp probe on the intake if you have access to one.

Jonboy2312

Umm... just to be sure, is there a picture or diagram somewhere that would show where exactly is the CTS? As embarassing as it is, I'm not exactly sure...

My temperature gauge is so wonky (see dash photo in my big post) I wouldn't trust it for anything. I dunno... a medical thermometer in radiator?

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

The CTS is the 2-wire thing right below the throttle body that has the round connector. The square one is the temperature switch for the seventh injector.

A medical thermometer won't read the temp of an engine that normally runs at about 195*F. A digital meat thermometer might, but then there's the whole issue of contamination...

Jonboy2312

My co-worker who has a good multimeter didn't come to work today, so no readings, sorry

One observation, though... with the MAF disconnected again, the car ran better. Well, kind of. There was certainly a lot more power, and despite following the same route as yesterday, over an even longer time, it didn't go lean.

With MAF - smooth idle, no power, gradually getting worse. Disastrous fuel inefficiency. Goes lean after a long drive.

Without MAF - rough idle and constant surging, but a lot more power. Fuel economy bad, but waaaaay better anyway. No change after the same long drive.

I'll try to get a reading out of those sensors sometime soon, one way or another... I want to buy a multimeter for myself, actually, but there's yet another repair to pay.

Apparently the manifold/y-pipe coupling is holding well, afterall. The leak is from the manifold/block gasket that failed somewhere deep in the back. That will be two manhours to replace... Oh for crying out loud! I don't recall there ever being a time when the exhaust actually worked well for longer than a couple of drives. How's that even possible? <sigh>

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Have you tried new hardware at all? If you haven't yet, try replacing the bolts and the nuts with locking nuts. Maybe it's not the gasket that failed but that the bolt came loose.