Hi, guys well I'm pretty much a complete noob, but I committed myself to do a turbo build on my stock 2.8 camaro, pretty much to prove to myself that anything is possible if I really set my mind to it. Now I know this might not have been the smartest move because the money could probably have been used better elsewhere, but i just had to try it. I pretty much based my build on project89's "How to" thread.

I wasn't guoing to post until i had everything up and running but of course i ran into a little problem. I have everything pretty much done. I went to start the car and unfortunately it didn't start! It seems to be because of a lean condition. my narrowband fuel pressure gauge seems to think so, and we sprayed some starter fluid to the throttle body and had a backfire in the intake (this is caused by a lean condition right?). I have 19# injectors and there is good fuel compression. my question is how do i feed it more fuel? an aftermarket fuel pressure regulator perhaps?

 

Sorry for the low quality pics. Had to take pics with my phone. Now keep in mind I'm 18 and i'm in college so this was a low budget build as well. onething i didn't like was how the placement of the turbo ended up. It ended up a little too low,(thats what happens when you don't know how to weld all that great) but other than that I'm pretty satisfied. I'll try to get better pics up as soon as i can.

http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/x...100_130700.jpg
http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/x...100_131600.jpg
http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/x...100_130901.jpg

 

More fuel=tune the ECM to give it more, you'll need an AFPR yes, or a set one that has a high enough psi, you might also need a bigger fuel pump, if memory serves the fuel pumps made for our v8 brethren make for good upgrades. But I'm not sure if you need it or not, I think its something like if your fuel pump is performing at its new specs you're fine, but if not you might need a new one. Backfire could be from running too lean, but also you might very well have to run a higher octane fuel. Also I believe you have to change the timing with a turbo, if memory serves they like retarded or advanced timing. Another thing is try setting a lower PSI boost, what are you trying to run at the moment? And have you done any ECM tuning?
Backfiring is caused by detonation, which can be caused by numerous things, its also really bad for your engine, especially if the ECM can't compensate enough, once you get it to start find out if the ECM is recording detonations, and tune it till they're gone.

 

I agree, you would need some bigger injectors, or atleast an adjustable fuel pressure regulator. A TPI afpr should fit (at least bolt up) but I'm not sure if it'll fit under the v6 intake/plenum. Your narrowband air fuel ratio gauge is useless (I hate to say it), so I wouldn't rely to heavily on it.

 

Also if you haven't tuned the ECM at all, you deffinately have to, and in fact, I'm not sure but I seem to remember reading that our stock ECMs can't even handle boost.
19# injectors should be enough though, If I recall that's what was used in the posted build instructions, personally I would use bigger to give myself room to upgrade, but #19 can probably handle 5-10 PSI of boost I think. Stock injectors are 15# for what that's worth. If you DO have to do an ecm swap:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...take-look.html

 

Everybody seems to be missing a simple fact... regardless of what has been done to the car in terms of a power adder it should still start and idle like stock.

Even with the turbo in place the engine is still effectively NA during startup and idle, you dont need any extra fuel to start and drive under no boost. You need load to boost.

To the OP chances are you just forgot something during the buildup. Double check all connectors and be sure you didnt dammage anything.

 

That's it the engine should start & idle. Maybe even drive under light throttle. The turbo is not going to make boost until you open it up a little or wide open. Then the ECM is gonna go crazy. You will have to have a custom tune designed for your engine... compression ratio, cam lift & duration, timing retard under boost,etc ect ect.... You will have to have a fuel pressure regulator designed for boost.

 

I'm with the last couple replies... At idle (no boost) the stock fuel system should work just fine. For that matter if you disconnect the waste gate and leave it wide open it'll drive around like the turbo isn't even there.

Once it's running an adjustable fuel pressure regulator is still nearly worthless. It'd be more appropriate to install larger fuel injectors, and tune the computer. The stock fuel pressure regulator is already pressure referenced, and increasing boost will cause the pressure to raise just the same as it changes based on vacuum and engine load with the stock setup.

It looks fun from the pics, but how tiny is that turbocharger? Interesting that you hooked up the water cooling lines. In theory you could have left them disconnected without any problems.

 

True, didn't really occur to me, just got off work and tired =/

 

I'm thinking it could be the injectors then, if he didn't tune the ECM its quite possible it won't run them till he tunes it to run them correctly.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpM3PFL_BnE

video of a 2.8 turbo if you're interested, the guy who made the video used to post on TGO a long time ago, car died though and don't think he ever swapped in that 350

 

Thanks for the replys guys. Thats exactly what i was thinking. If at startup its the same as if the turbo didnt even exist then why am i having problems with not getting fuel especially since i have larger injectors? or could it perhaps be the spark plugs? (I think i read somewhere that you had to make the gap smaller?) as for the timing i tried retarding and accelerating it with no luck I'll try it again though just to make sure. I'll also double check to make sure i didn't miss a connection or something.

The wastegate has a 3.63 psi spring, so even when it does start it won't be under too much boost. I bought a manual boost controller just haven't hooked it up yet. I'm planning on ultimately running 5-7 psi. And hopefully learn how to tune the ecm as i go. But first things first. I have to get her running.

 

If anything your giant injectors are fouling your plugs. Without any tuning, you're dumping a lot of fuel at idle where you don't need it. With 21-22lb injectors (or Ford 19lb) a 2.8 or 3.1 will usually load up and die within 45 seconds at idle. A couple rounds and the plugs will foul.

What's the turbo off of? It looks really small. It'll probably spool very fast, but might choke the engine at the top end.

 

Pretty much what I said on my last statement :P

 

im trying to do this to my car, so yah what size turbo is that and how long did it take to finish

 

Turn your key on for a few second then turn it off. Go push the valve core in the center of the schrader valve on the fuel rail to make sure you're getting fuel pressure to the rail. (be careful as it may spray if pressure is present) Check for spark. Try to check timing while cranking to ensure you are close on the timing. you need 10* advance (at idle) with the little connector disconnected by your a/c accumulator. as stated, make sure all connectors are connected.

 

The motor should start and run exactly like it did when stock, the smaller gap is only needed to compensate for the demser and more energetic air charge that can tend to blow out a weak spark. A smaller gap helps a spark to be more stable for a given ammunt of energy.

So no, with no boost you dont need to reduce gap, reset your entire fuel/ignition system to bone stock, only change what needs to be changed when it needs to be changed.

You can instal a fuel management unit (FMU) to do basic fuel tuning for low boost, it should be good for 5-8 PSI easy, no computer tuning or altered specs. Use stock injectors until you need to push the fuel pressure past soy 70 PSI under boost. Others with experience with these motors can give you a better aproximation though.

 

Yay! well i finally got her running. I went ahead and took ya'lls advice and i put the stock injectors back on and it started right up. thanks. The #19 injectors seem to feed to much fuel for the car to start, but the stock injectors seem to be alittle on the low side. (I say this because the air/fuel ratio gauge is wanting to touch the lean side. Now i know the gauge is almost useless but i bought it so it could keep me away from trouble) Right now i have not installed the boost controller so the car is only running what the wastegate will allow (3.63psi). So my concern is that when i get the boost controller installed and bump up the boost the stock injectors won't be enough. In simple words the #19 are too much and the stock are too little. are there any injectors in between that i can use. or will i have to use an FMU or tune the ECU?


My father helped me out and we advanced the timing to were it ran pretty decent but its still a little sluggish. I'm not quite sure exactly were its supposed to be at. any suggestions?


The turbo came off a chrysler and is a garret .42/.48 it took me a little over three months, only working on it every once in a while. I did this project so i could learn so i went ahead and did all of the fab-work (thats why it didn't come out so well )

 

Yeah, I kind of figured that it was the injectors, you have to tune the ECM for non stock injectors, otherwise bigger ones will flood and stock will deffinately run lean, which is bad because it increases likelihood of detonation, esp since you/'re turbocharging. Or an FMU will work(i think), not sure though because I don't recall what they do exactly.

 

until I officially tune my ecm, I plan to run bigger injectors on a slightly lower psi and have a fmu raise the fuel pressure appropriate to the boost...

 

Don't put any faith whatsoever in your narrow band A/F gauge. They're pretty lights to impress passengers and bystanders. By the time it shows a lean/rich condition any damage will already be done. You'd be further ahead to monitor your spark plugs.

Are those 19# injectors Ford injectors? 5.0 Ford 19#'ers actually put out over 20#'s when you put them in a GM car due to the higher operating pressure. 19# 305 TPI injectors would be an honest 19# in a 2.8, but again I'd look at tuning the computer rather then cheating.

Stock timing is right around 10*, you might want to pull a little timing or run premium fuel, but your knock sensor will probably pull timing if there's a problem. You'll also want to keep a watchful ear on things and if you hear any detonation back off immediately. One step colder plugs probably wouldn't hurt either.

Invest in a wide band if you really want to know what's happening. If you really want to run larger injectors, start reading up about how to tune the computer.

 

You got the turbo off of a dodge/chrysler 2.2 or 2.5 liter SOHC 4 banger right? If so it's a very small turbo and will never do much on a 2.8L.

The OE's almost always go on the small side with turbos to give decent response, this is especialy true of the older turbos that had no good anti lag properties built in. In other words the turbo isnt just small for your motor it's small for the 2.2 it likely came off of.

The good is you shouldnt see much lag at all, the bad is the turbo will fall on it's face shortly after full boost and make heat rather than power.

Look at the T3/T4 combos on ebay, after a lot of complaints about quality they seem to actualy be decent to good units, the only time someone actualy posted a video of one of these units "failing" it turned out the guy had installed the center section up side down and blew the seals himself.

You'll be able to flow real CFM's with one and potentialy make real power, but tuning will be something you need to look at very hard.

An FMU and slightly larger than stock injectors is a good starting point on a budget. My friend turboed his 2.0 Probe and the only tuning he did was to splice in a set of ford/mazda 1st gen 2.2 turbo injectors and the addition of an AFPR to set a slightly lower base fuel pressure and an FMU (begi) to control on boost fueling.

After the mechanical instal the actual tuning took him all of 15 minutes and he had a nice stock like idle/cruise afr and solid safe boost afr's, we havent even seen the lean transitions that people who oppose FMU's talk about. The thing works perfectly in all driving conditions as far as I have seen. He dose use a real wide band though, it's the only way you can quickly and accurately tune a boosted motor.

 

I think you'll be happy with the turbo for now. One more thing about the FMU, just like FPRs, you can find adjustable FMUs that way you can really fine tune (instead of guessing ratios)...

 

I agree with the others in that there is defenitely a need to tune here. If you installed #19 injectors, and didnt program a PROM for the ECM, it still thinks it has #15'ers in there. Instead of the fine mist that should be getting in there, youll have a stream like a firehose. You have to tell the ECM it has #19 injectors and the only way to do that is to burn a chip for it.

 

I searched a bit and found that the 3.4 camaro injectors are 17lb. I was thinking I could use those and an FMU. but are those injectors a direct swap? and will these be too rich for the car that it won't even start?

and while i'm at it, if anyone is nice enough to post up links to some useful information and posts on tuning i would greatly appreciate it.

 

Idk about the injectors working without programming or not...but

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...take-look.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/promintro

 

3.4 injectors will probably cause problems down the road... They're too rich for the stock engine, so you'll have carbon built up in the cylinders, which can increase the chances for knock and detonation due to holding heat. The engine will run, but don't expect too much out of it unless you get a bigger turbo on there. But, yes, they are a direct drop in (the exact same part number as the ones used on the early 3100).

 

ok first up stop with everything.

#1 those njectors are perfect i ran 21# injectors on a stock engine no issues, ive done this exact build my first time around and put well over 2 years on it with the stock ecm as my daily driver and weekend track car
#2 u need to remove the rubber hose from the tb with the line going to the valve cover u will just blow boost into the crank case
#3 u have a maf car u do not need ANY COMPUTER TUNNING untile u get to around 12 psi with a t3/t4 hybrid turbo
#4 ur need to rotate the center housing on the turbo so the oil feed is uptop and the drain stright down u will blow the turbo the way u have it
#5 cant see were u have ur maf sensor but it must be on the inlet side of the turbo
#6 ur air temp sensor MUST be in the pipe goingfrom the intercooler to the throttle body

so start with fixing the rubber tube and also do u have an adjustable fpr on the car?

 

Better to route it to a point infront of the turbo, many people just run a cone filter over the turbo inlet but it's better to have that line in place for a daily driver. A large check valve will work also and let you keep the line in it's current location.

My friend has his between the IC and TB in it's stock location, no issues.

He'll need one to run any higher flowing injectors successfully. Another poster said running larger injectors would lead to carbon buildup and other issues but with an adjustable FPR this can be prevented.

Then with the FMU you adjust the on boost pressure.

 

i ran 21#'s with stock fuel presure for 2 years no issues so no he wont need one, and he could run the tube to the turbo inlet but it will suck oil into the turbo inlet without an oil catch can etc

 

Ran my 2.8L with 22# injectors (stock 4thgen 3.8 units) as a daily driver for over a year with no issues (now its a project car, but still no issues).

BTW, project89 has been successfully running a turbo on his 60* V6 for quite a while now. He knows what hes talking about!

 

Well i don't know how you ran yours with 21# because when i tried the 19# ford injectors it wouldn't start at all, do you have any ideas of what may be causing it to do that?

ok so what do i do to the opening on the valve cover? do i put one of those little filters?

Ya my maf sensor is right in between the air filter and the turbo inlet, and my IAT sensor is between the intercooler and throttle body.

and no i don't have an adjustable fpr.

Thanks for the help guys.

 

I'm guessing you mean the PCV valve, i you have emissions you need to have the map/plenum/FPR hose attached to it, if not, just slap a breather valve on it, its like a miniature air filter, but that's not emissions legal, but I'm pretty sure you don't have to do anything else with it, just as simple as putting the breather filter on as far as I know.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpM3PFL_BnE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mihED...eature=related



NOP, she aint dead yet !, i tohugh she was cauz she was sputtering like **** at the end of last year but i started it it yesterday and took her for a peel! maybe the ignition wires need to be changed.. I also have ford 19lb injectors and a fmu for more fuel in mine, i dosent idle lol well it does for like 10 seconds and then dies.. but thats ok why would u want it to idle i have my foot down all the time haah. My build is very ghetto/low budget but i did it when i was 17 aka no money no knoowledge, i still am lacking both haha, i have a 350 with a 3 speed that i wana build and swap but i have to say the turbo 2.8 is one of the funnest cars ive ever driven!

 

the pcv vale u leave alone( ds valve cover)
the passenger side one is the one u need to fix, the rubber hose you have on the tb has a tube that connects to the ps valve cover , u need to remove that and put a lil beathe filter on that valve cover. and out a regular coupler n the tb

i u dont when the turbo spools up it will just blow tons of boost into the vakve cover which will cause the rings to unseat and massive oil leaks and other issues

 

Sorry i haven't posted recently but I've been busy with school and all. I do have a few new questions though. We recently bought a code scanner, so i went ahead n checked the car and two codes came up: "22 throttle position is too low," and "32 MAF/MAP sensor too low". My question is, Could these be the problem to why the car wouldn't start up with the 19# injectors? If so how do I go about fixing them. Now the throttle position sensor i can adjust right? What about the MAF sensor do, i go ahead n replace the whole sensor?

 

Well, with more fuel, you need more air, so that could quite possibly be why it has issues with the 19# hr injectors. Idk about adjusting them offhand, but the tps you might try the screw that controls how far open the plate sits at idle. The Maf, I believe would just have to be replaced, but don't go out and buy a new one with just my word on that, because I might be wrong.

 

Someone has their codes mixed up. Yes, code 22 is the TPS code, but you may need to make modifications to the 89's TPS for adjustment.

As for the other code, if it's a code 32, it's for the EGR valve system. If it's a code 33, that means that the MAF is reading HIGH, not low, which is code 34. Remove the MAF and examine the orange film in the board. If the film is not completely flat, you will need a new one. If your engine is not turbo'd yet, yes, you're going to have some problems with 19# injectors (running rich), and the malfunctioning MAF, if you have one, will make this worse (code 33).

If you do have the turbo running, your ECM is probably spitting out a code 33 (high flow) due to the turbo. Which means, either way, turbo or no turbo, with the 19# injectors, you NEED to re-tune the ECM tables.

 

mav i strongly disagree
ur talking 4# per hour over stock
and at around a 3.2 ms idle pulse the diff in the amount of extra fuel will not make it run like crap
will it run slightly rich yes
will it run rich enough to turn the tail pipes black or to foul the plugs NO
the amount of extra fuel dumped in by the slightly larger injectors will be pulled out by the o2 sensor once the motor is warmed up except under wot conditions were the extra fuel is necasary infact im going to go dig out my old wideband logs that show just how a 19 or 21# injector run on a stock ecm ( maf setup)

i ran my car for i dont know how many years like that on a bone stock motor with a turbo

 

this is with 21# injectors check out the cruise section afr bounces from 14.2 to 15.8 afr
btw thirdgen is oing to auto resize the pics so right click on the picture and click view picture/image to see it were its readable

and here is cruising around with no boost the dips in the afr are from getting on the throttle a lil bit, but anyways the car cruised at about 14.5 afrs
same thing right click on the picture and click view image/picture

 

Project, the question is whether or not you tuned the ECM to match the injectors. Between the EXTREMELY long crank times and the code 45 the ECM couldn't help but spit out when I was running the 3100/3.4 injectors (18.4#), my engine ran, but ran MUCH better with the stock units with an untuned ECM. I ran the bigger injectors for a year until I decided that eating that kind of gas was ridiculous along with the ridiculous crank times that killed my battery on more than one occasion.

My MAF may have had something to do with it, but I couldn't tell you how long the film inside the sensor was FUBARed. I do know, however, that the fuel injectors DID leak. Which was the reason for the ridiculous crank time (pressure dropped so quickly it was laughable). Either way, I'm not going to run the 18.4# injectors again until the hybrid parts get swapped in (if ever).

 

I have a few mixed feels about running upto 12 psi on a stock internals. I thought the MAF could only handle 255mg on it. Anything else more than than 255 would get it an inacurate reading and more than 8psi would definetely be above 255 if I am not mistaken. The maf is more able to adapt to mild engine parts swaps, This is true. But when you start going to radical changes, it is best to repin your ecm to run a Map sensor. Another thing you might want to think about is taking a look at code59.org. You can put a 7730 or 7749 ecm with a AUJP chip and a $59 mask which will allow your car to run on a S/C or turbo and the ecm will automatically adjust for boost pressures. I personally have never had any faith in an FMU. But you need a WBo2, a 3bar map sensor, a tuning program, and a little patience.

 

my ecm was not tuned at all for the injectors it was factory stock chip in it, so yesur prolly had other issues,namley the leaking injectors will cause many problems

ib 12psi is a rough estimate, 12 psi from a t3 50 trim and 12 psi from a t3/t4 dont move anywere around the same amount of air.
with my t3/t4 i didnt run into any issues in the niebor hood of 12 psi but i didnt try to go past that without an fmu