i have an 87 Pontiac firebird base coupe with the 2.8 v6 that is running rich. it fouls spark plug quickly and if i start the engine it runs ruff at idle possibly high idle, theres a ticking noise. if i rev the engine she smooths out and quiets down. what could be causing this? could it be the mass airflow sensor. if so would the crc mass airflow sensor cleaner actually work to fix this problem. the cheapest mass airflow sensor i can find new is 60 bucks and the cleaners only 7 so i was wondering that would fix the problem.

theres an exhaust leak on the passenger side of the engine {blown exhaust manifold gasket} and when i put new spark plug in it saturday she started right up {first time in a long while. and in less then a second of cranking}and as soon as i got to the end of road i stop so i could turn the corner and as the engine rpms dropped back to idle she stallled i tried to restart her and she wouldnt start so then i popped the hood. i could smell gas so i figured she was flooded i waited a while then tried to start her again. normaly with fresh plugs and a charged batery as soon as you turn the key she takes off immediately. not this time she cranked for 30 scenods or so and as soon as she sounded like she was going to pop a fireball blew out the passenger side of the engine. good thing the hood was open and i could se it. as soon as i let go of the key the fire went away. my best guees for it is that there was to much gas in her and it was going out the leeking exhaust gasket and with the new plugs giving a good strong spark it ignitited. Does that sound like a possible explanation. i put 2 of the old plugs back in that side and after cranking a while she took off with no fireball. every time i pulled a plug out it was completely soaked with gas. could a bad mass airflow sensor cause all this trouble.or at least all the flooding. any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

 

also was wondering if it could be a stuck fuel pressure regulator. i am new to EFI so i don't know much about whats causing the problem or how to fix it.

 

FPR could be leaking. Remove the vacuum line from the fuel rail and check for gas. Check for spark... Plugs should show a nice white spark. If the spark is yellow, the coil needs to be replaced. Remove the fuel rail and support it above the manifold. Cycle the fuel pump on and off. If any injectors drip fuel, they are leaking. Remove the MAF and look inside the engine side (without the screen). Hold the sensor so that a light shining through the screen side of the sensor is reflected off of the film on the circuit board. If the film appears wavy, the MAF is shot. Look on eBay for a new sensor. A seller named beckysbids is selling NEW GM MAF sensors for less than the cheap crap reman MAF sensors are selling for at the parts houses.

 

hi thanx for the help the fpr was not leaking but it was stuck in place which think was the main cause of my problems.the previous owner had the car sitting since the late 90s. they just moved it behind there garage in fall so they could plow in the winters and then back to his driveway in spring the only time i know of them actually driving the car while they owned it was 3 or 4 years ago and that drive was only a 100 mile round trip during which they blew the exhaust manifold gasket. and she was parked again as soon as the got home. so i think a lot of my problems are just from the car sitting so much. i gotta put new plug wires on it this weekend cuz now the number 2 piston is misfiring i broke the wire. after thats fixed. im gonna try some of that crc mass airflow sensor cleaner just to make sure thats clean then hopefuly the engine will be runing right in know since i freed the fpr she runs alot better other then the misfire. she no longer stals out as sooon as i drop the throtle. and if i shut her she starts back up.and best of all NO more fireball!

 

My mom's Plymouth Acclaim did that... those cruddy mechanical FPR valves stick like mad when they sit forever and a day... That car spat carbon chunks out of the tail pipe until I freed the diaphragm inside the FPR by pushing on it with a screwdriver.

That CRC MAF cleaner may not work, but you can try. Just make sure the MAF is completely DRY when you go to run the engine again, or you could cause problems. Don't forget to inspect it like I posted above when it's clean.

 

after i sprayed pb blaster thru the vacuum line to free the fpr. i checked the mass airflow sensor the film didn't look wavy but was a little dirty so i figured id try to clean it. the engine seems to be running smoother every time i start it. even with the number 2 cylinder misfiring. tomorrow ill try that cleaner and install the new plug wire. and see how she sounds. if she sounds good ill take her for another test drive and hopefully get further than the end of my road. lol. and if there are no other major problems hopefully get her registered and on the road by the end of next week. then get new tires and fix the exhaust gasket .

 

also is there anything else i should check over, before i test drive it, that could have problems from sitting all those years. this is my first car and id like too make her my daily driver. so i am trying to fix everything now. tranny seems to shift strong and brakes are good. is there any thing else i should be watching out for.

 

Get that plug wire fixed ASAP! If you don't, replacing that wire could be the least of your worries. The coil could short out, and the high voltage spikes could kill the ignition module.

Check the brakes over really good (including the lines and hoses), check the suspension bushings, replace ALL of the fluids and filters that haven't already been changed (including the brake fluid!), check to make sure the parking brake works and one of the cables don't freeze up (mandatory for passing inspection!).

 

i fixed the wires and cleaned the maf sensor today. the cleaner running back was a disgusting dark brown almost black. i ended up using most of the can i sprayed and wiped out the maf and throttle body till the cleaner running out was almost clear. i then removed the coil wire from the distributor and rolled it over a few times to clear it of any cleaner. then let i let her dry while reattached the air hose. then started her and man did she sound good nice and smooth idle and revved up nice. didn't take her for a test drive yet cuz it was down pouring all day today and the side yard where she is parked is completely flooded. the poor bird is sitting in 3 or 4 inches of water. i new it would just spin if i tried to drive her so I'll wait a few days for the yard to dry up. i also got the new exhaust gasket today so if it aint raining tomorrow ill try and fix that while i wait for the yard to dry. i know i need to let the engine get warm before i try to take the bolts out so they don't snap. is there anything else i could do to keep them from snapping also do i need to remove the, i think its called an egr valve. its the passenger side exhaust manifold. also is there any thing else involved in replacing the exhaust manifold gasket.
the brakes seem to be working good but i do plan on replacing them soon. there is some black gunk in the bottom of the reservoir. the lines look alright haven't checked the pads yet. jack broke last time i used it. pos. so brakes gotta wait for a new one and yard to dry. the tie rods don't look to healthy so they'll have to be replaced. once again thanks for all the help and sorry for writing so much.

 

I just replaced the pas exhaust manifold on my son's 2.8. Keep soaking the bolts in WD-40 or something like it. His had 2 broken bolts. Warmed up the engine, then everything came off ok. I soaked the broken bolts for a few hours, then smacked the expose ends with a hammer, and latched on with a vise grip, came right out. Good luck. The car my son and I picked up has been driven very little for the last 4 years, and we have had some of the same issues. I sucked a can of Sea Foam through the break booster vacuum line and it has helped. It was too god a deal to pass up. About 100k, T-tops, new battery fuel filter and air filters, good tires and no rust for $800.

 

i tried removing the pass exhaust manifold to replace the gasket today. the first three bolts came out with no problems. the top rear bolt was already snapped from the previous owner attempting to remove it. the first three i took of where the front ones then the top middle one and was amazed by how easy they came out. then i moved to the bottom middle bolt and after pulling hard for awhile she finally started to turn or atleast i thought it was but then the ratchet dropped and the bolts head was stuck in the socket i figured there would be enough of a stub left that i could get her with vice grips after i got the manifold all the way off.so i was gonna try getting the back bottom bolt. and of course my other 13mm for the 3/8s drive disappeared. and of course you got the collector so you cant use a deep well or the 1/2 inch drive. i tried every thing i could think of to get that head out of that socket short of cutting it. ill try taking it to boces with me tomorrow and use the press to force it out.

 

You should have let the engine warm up to operating temp before trying to remove the manifold. It's too late now.

Anyways, use a 13mm wrench on the bolts, not a socket. Find a 6-point wrench if you can, and soak the bolts in penetrant for a day before you try to remove the bolts.

 

Maverick H1L i have been spraying them bolts with pb blaster of and on for the last few days and i let the engine run for 20 minutes or so before i started to remove the bolts. i know it was hot because it melted/ burned my leather work gloves. and im must be stupid or something i never even thought of the open end wrench.


copyfixr you got a good deal on that car. mine aint a t top but i still think i got a better deal. mine is also rust free and only 73000 miles. the guy gave it to me for a straight trade for a broken and beat 99 silverado. that poor truck was completely rotted out, the tranny was shot and the engine had almost 200 thousand miles on it and the oil hadn't been changed in 2 years. i dont think that truck was worth 50 bucks. the poor maintenance was from the guy we tried selling the truck to 3 years ago. he ruined the truck then stopped making payments. so my dad took it back and gave it to me. i was about to scrap the truck when i gotta offered the car by a friends sisters boyfriend.

 

what does this
mean or do. iv never heard of this.

 

take that socket and lay it down on the pavement and give it a tap with a hammer on the side of it. That bolt head should pop right out.

 

i just looked up that sea foam stuff and that really sounds amazing
after i finish fixing the exhaust im gonna have to try this maybe next weakend i might get couple extra bottles for the tractors.

 

Sea Foam is some great stuff. I think its available everywhere. I run it in most everything i have that burns gas. Run a can through the gas tank, and a can through the top end somehow. It will smoke like crazy when you suck it through the intake. Sounds like you did get a better deal than I did. Good luck with the broken bolts.

 

the exhuast manifold on the passenger side has to be one of the worst things to work on. my poor bird has been sitting on a block of firewood all week.
i got the inner bolt off of the collector after after i removed the starter to make room for the ratchet to turn. the other bolt im gonna leave as it is.i finally removed the coil so i could turn that one from the topside but she stripped and i was using a 6 point socket that fit really tight on it.but with all the force i was applying to it with the breaker bar she stripped. so that bolts gonna stay there. the egr or whatever that thing on top of the manifold is called still has a socket. i tried to remove to make removing the coil easier. the bolts where so heavily rusted the 10 mm slipped so i pounded a nine on it and was gonna use the breaker bar to remove it but stopped myself before i could snap another bolt. all the bolts that hold the manifold to the head have been remove except for the top left one. the previous owner must have had an exhaust leak before and made an attempt to repair it. and during that "repair" they snapped that bolt flush with the head. then proceeded to replace the original gasket with 2 new ones on the same side. then only put 5 bolts back into the head. the fact that there was only 5 bolts dont bother me cuz im gonna do the same. what does bother me is that they would put 2 gaskets on the same side. which makes me wonder what other half-*** repairs that guy did. he was a nice guy but obviously not to brite if he was willing to give me the car for a straight trade for my truck. im gonna get a new bolt to replace the one i broke and a couple of cans of that sea foam tomorrow. then start putting every thing back together. thats pretty much a summary of my whole week. sorry for writing so much

 

tommarow i'll get three cans of that see foam some cheap walmart oil and some Valvoline then when i get every thing back together and running ill drain tho old oil poor 1 can of sea foam in there and fill it the rest of the way with the cheap oil then another can in the gas tank and then refill the tank the rest of the way. then i'll let the car warm up and slowly suck half of the third can into the brake booster vacuum line. the take her around the block a few times keeping her close to full throttle. and smoke out the neighbors. good thing i live in the middle of nowhere. there is only something like 8 houses on this entire block most of its just woods. but the few neighbors i do have like me so i doubt they would call the cops. and i never see cops around here. that would suck if one showed up. the car smoking no tags and me on only a permit. would not go over good at all. when the car stops smoking i'll park her and change the oil again this time to the Valvoline. and see what happens. i know this is a bit of over kill but the engine and fuel system will be completely cleaned out.

 

Couple hints: Craftsman Bolt-Out set and an impact wrench. Should've run the engine until warm before attempting to remove bolts, and sprayed the crap out of them with PB Blaster (best stuff I've ever used as I tried EVERYTHING on my exhaust manifold to y-pipe studs and got nowhere until the PB). Let the PB sit for a couple of days, respraying a couple of times, and then go to town with the Bolt-Outs and and impact if you have one.

:edit: And yes, I know you said you already tried heat and PB Blaster...

 

i dont have either a bolt out set or an impact. i dont think an impact would fit there anyway. i can barely get my hand in there.this is avery tight fit on this side which is why its been such a pain.

the heat and Pb blaster haven't been working either and now the outer manifold to y pipe stud bolt is stripped so that one is staying where it is. i got the rest of the bolts out except the one the previuos owner snapped. the one i snapped came out with no effort by my fingers after i finally was able to pry the manifold over. i pounded an old crow bar in between the block and manifold till it was past it. ill replace that bolt and reinstall the rest that i took out.and only put in 1 gasket. i have no clue what the previous owner was thinking.

 

i know the wiring is a nightmare that needs to be gone thru i can only imagine what other surprises ill find in the future fixing this bird

 

im gonna feel stupid for asking this but which way is the new gasket supposed to go. one side is metal other side is paper. which side is supposed to be facing the head. i was planing to match it to the original gasket but there was 1 going 1 way and 1 going the other way. which is probably why it didnt work

 

Does the paper possibly peel off? I would think that the paper side goes against the head and the metal side goes against the hotter manifold.

Oh, and if you have enough extensions, you can get an impact on those flange bolts. The driver's side is a piece of cake. The passenger's side requires longer extensions and a u-joint for the top bolt.

I strongly recommend Bolt-Outs to anyone needing to do exhaust work at some point in the future, BTW.

 

finaly got the exhaust and every thing back together. and the birds off the firewood. every thing just fell rite back into place so nicely. she runs a lot quieter. i put sea foam in oil and gas. but not in vac line yet. still trying to figure out how to pour the sea foam and keep it plugged off at the same time. anyone got any suggestions. also i put the gasket on paper side facing head hope that was rite.

 

i finaly got the sea foam in the vac line then waited 10 minutes and stared her drove around the block she didn't smoke much more than normal. she does run a little smoother idle still don't sound right. and there's a ticking coming from the #1 cylinder area. that goes away and the engine smooths out as soon as you rev it. ill worry about that later. i found another couple of issues that i don't like. after i got her parked back in my side yard i was playing with it rolling back and forward and i noticed 2 things. first there's a weird rubbing grinding noise coming from the rear end. its only there when you put her in gear and have the engine idling. as soon as you rev the engine she starts to pull forward and the noise goes away. tomorrow ill put her back on the firewood and check the fluid in the rear end. the other thing i noticed was really weird and i have no idea what to do. if you go from reverse to neutral she acts like neutrals supposed to act. but when you go from overdrive to neutral she acts like you got it in reverse. she slips but goes backward. pull it into reverse and she stops slipping and backs up normal. i have never seen or heard of a vehicle doing this. if any one has any ideas or suggestions please let me know. thanx

 

First, are you sure the noise is from the rear of the car and not the transmission? If the car is stopped, the rearend isn't moving at all, but the stuff inside the trans in some parts IS (oil pump, for one).
Second, check the adjustment on the shift cable at the transmission. The cable housing may not quite be in the right alignment compared to the manual shaft on the transmission, causing the trans to do weird things when shifted. Also, check the neutral safety switch adjustment (not that this will have any effect on the trans itself, but just in case). The engine SHOULD turn over in Park and Neutral and not any drive range (Reverse or 1, 2, D, or OD).

Also check the fluid color and level in the transmission.

 

i was looking at the Haynes Manuel and im gonna try adjusting the shift linkage tomorrow as far as the noise goes i'm not totally sure but it sounds like its coming from the drivers side rear tire area. but i could be wrong my hearing aint so great. ill get the car up on the wood tomorrow and see what i can find out. i mite see if i can get someone inside the car shifting it while i'm underneath to see if i can find the noise better. im also gonna check the parking brake cuz the lever was a b**** to release yesterday.

 

i hate rain.i figured cuz there was no school and i had no plans i could get some work done on my bird. but it was f-ing down pouring. i cant want till the garage gets cleared out. all the mowers are geting pulled out on the lawn tomorrow. and the birds finally gonna get put in there. just gotta rearrange the benches and drill press and put the weed eaters and chainsaws in the shed. thats gonna be a pan in the **** but im sick of laying in the mud.

 

I hear you with the rain... I hate being in the Rochester area.

Anyways, the parking brake stuff is possibly the worst thing to get at on our cars short of the gas tank. Right above the drive shaft and the torque arm, with NO clearance whatsoever for any tools, and you will need 2 wrenches to adjust it or whatever, and something to loosen or dissolve the rust that's built up. That doesn't count the special tool you may need, if the cable itself is frozen, for the brake lever end in the rear brakes.

The noise could also be something rattling against the exhaust, one of the heat shields, or something. Those noises are a pain in the rear as well. I ended up removing one part of the heat shield to get rid of the noise (because my engine pipe is pulling the entire exhaust out of alignment ). The shields are only held in place with the same screws as are holding the dash assembly together, and you probably know how small and skinny those are.

 

the idea that the noise could be a heat should sounds likely i might have move the exhaust out of alignment while wrestling the manifold.
ill check that and the parking brake in a couple of days. first i got to clear out my garage. i hope the bird will fit. if not ill pull a couple of my benches right out.
i know what you mean by those tiny screws. but if i do end up removing part of the shield at least ill have a few to replace the ones im missing from my center console

 

Trust me, those screws won't work with your console, being only about a quarter inch long or so...

 

i guess i don't know what dash screws your talking about.
its supposed to finally be nice out again today so i get home from school ill finish cleaning out the garage. the bird aint going anywhere for a couple of days cuz the side yard shes in is flooded again.

 

shes starting to run better but idle still is really ruff and sounds like it wants to die. as soon as it revs up smooths out. the hoses to the charcoal canister are shot so ill replace them next weekend. my Boces teacher says there's probably a vacuum leak causing the rough idle so i was gonna go threw them. does anyone have a diagram for the vacuum lines. in a few minutes im gonna jack her up and role the log back under her and see if i can find the heat shield that's rattling. and while im under there ill soak the parking brake linkages with pb blaster.

ps its fun to go muding with firebirds! she's covered.

 

http://s988.photobucket.com/albums/a...onssticker.jpg

That should get you in the right direction.

 

thanx that will help with the charcoal canister lines do you have any thing for the rest of the vac lines

 

That's the whole factory hose routing diagram for 87... If you can't find what you need there... I took that pic shortly before getting rid of my bent stock hood.

 

i forget to mention what heat shield did you have to replace i got the back of the bird sitting on a couple of logs with the back wheels of the ground. i hear the rattle but dont see it.

 

Mine was the heat shield at the front of the bend at the front of the rear axle... The shield was loose AND the exhaust is out of alignment. Took me 3 hours to get the damn thing out without dropping the axle OR the exhaust. Yours could be any one of the like 5 of them that's loose.

 

what about the vac lines under the intake and to the brake booster? also is that sticker supposed to be on the stock hood?

the exhaust rattle goes away if i grab the passenger side rubber hanger so i was wondering if i were to take some wire and connect it to the frame further back to give it some tension would that fix the problem?

 

...

No, the diagram does NOT show the line for the brake booster, HVAC, and the cruise control. The booster, well, you know where that connects. The HVAC and the cruise control are T-d off of the other port where the booster connects. The line running off of the plenum T should run into a blue check valve that has a large in and out port directly across from one another and a smaller port on the side. The HVAC connects to the small port. A line runs to the vacuum modulator for the cruise control (which is t-d into this line) and down to the "orb of power" under the battery.

 

im not sure buti dont think my bird has cruise control but h vac system hoses are some thing that id like to check out. i checked the lines in the pic you posted they all seem to be routed rite which is a mericle cuz i had them all out while i was fixing the exhaust manifold. one of the two that go around the back of the engine needs to be replaced. as well as all the ones on the charcoal canister.

 

whats the "orb of power" sound like some thing off of lord of the rings. is that the round thing by the windshield washer fluid reservoir?
what does that thing do?

 

That particular round thing is the cruise control modulator, which is vacuum operated similar to the EGR valve but with built-in computer-controlled valving for speed regulation. The "orb of power" I refer to is the vacuum tank ball mounted to the bottom of the battery tray.

 

i replaced the lines to the charcoal canister and the medium sized one from the brake booster also the one that goes down to the "orb of power" thing what does that do?

the car is almost running rite but its still not how i want it. after its idled a while or when you rev it it runs good and smooth. but after you've revved it awhile and drop the throttle it gets rough at idle and has a rough idle when it is first started. my other boces teacher said something about an idle air control sensor or something like that where would that be located and how do i check it?
tomorrow ill adjust the shifter and fix the rear hatch. i just got a new jack and jack stands for my b-day so that means no more scissor jack and firewood. yay!

 

The orb of power is a vacuum tank, storing vacuum for when the cruise control and the HVAC system need it.

It's not an idle air control sensor, it's a stepper motor, which the position is set by the ECM for however much air the ECM wants in the engine at idle. Check the timing, remove the IAC from the throttle body next to the big black pipe, and clean it if it's super black and carbon covered.

Also, due to age, the big black idle air pipe may have come apart at the union that's attached to the lower intake manifold, where the curved pipe coming from the throttle body, the one running to the charcoal can, and the PCV valve hose come together. This part CANNOT be replaced with a dealer part, as the dealer parts catalog lists the part as not having a part number and non-serviceable.

Check the sealing of the nipple that the metal pipe from the intake bellows runs into in the pass side valve cover, and the PCV valve to the hose and to the grommet in the driver's side. Check the valve covers to see if they may be loose. If you haven't already, replace the entire intake manifold gasket set (FelPro MS93020) to help with any problems that might be there. It's better to do the set as you have to tear just about everything down to get to the valve cover gaskets anyways, and you'll need the gaskets regardless. Also replace the injector o-rings (GP Sorenson 800-9220). Make sure that the intake boxes are sealed to the intake bellows and the MAF sensor by making sure the clamps are tight. :edit: And, with the lower intake manifold to cylinder head gaskets, they say you're not supposed to cut them to get them around the pushrods. Cut one side of the "DO NOT CUT" parts of the gaskets and slide them in behind the pushrods so you don't have to screw with the valve adjustment. The gaskets will stay aligned with the bolts and alignment pins, so don't worry about it.

Next time you go to BOCES, ask some of the instructors if they have a multimeter that you can use that has a frequency measurement for the MAF. If they do, take a frequency reading between the blue and black wires at the MAF connector. The frequency should be about 32Hz at idle. If you can't do a frequency measurement, you'll need a scantool to get a reading of the indicated air flow at idle. I'll have to look that number up.

 

I want to hop on this thread. Just picked up my first 3rd gen for my son's first car. It's and 88 with a 2.8. It has been sitting for 4 years and I am trying to get it running better. Maverick, I see your posts all over, man you know your stuff and really try to help. Thanks. The fitting that you referenced as non-serviceable, is there anyone that makes the part, or is it something that can be fabricated. I don't want to steal the thread, but this is exactly what I have been looking for.

 

This is the only way to fix it:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/v6/5...onnection.html

Read through the whole thing as you'll need to change some things when you use this. The part is NOT available through the dealer, but possibly through aftermarket. I did this because it was cheaper and I needed SOMETHING. The PVC fittings and the hose were a lot cheaper than I'm betting the replacement tube would be.

 

i haven't looked at that hose you linked to replacing. ill check that tomorrow why is there no part #?
the timing is rite i checked that a couple of months ago when i couldn't get it to start.
i have sprayed cleaner into the throttle body and mass airflow so there shouldn't be any carbon build up.
the intake and valve covers are all tightly on there. the nipple on the left valve cover came out while i was fixing the exhaust manifold gasket. ill make sure i got it in rite tomorrow and no they dont let us borrow the boces tools so ill just leave that till i get it on the road. it doesn't stall anymore and if you let it idle awhile the idle starts to smooth out. its just ruff when first starting and rite after revving awhile. and maverick thanx for all the help you really know your shiit about cars.

 

I was hoping you could use the school's DMM while you were in class as I was assuming you could work on your car there. I was also assuming that they have a relatively decent Fluke DMM or 2 there.

One word of advice: NEVER spray anything into the MAF that isn't designed for the purpose as this can kill it after a while. Been there, done that.

I don't know why there is no GM P/N for the 2.8 idle air inlet pipe assembly, just that there isn't. I tried to replace mine when it came unglued at the union where the big pipe meets up with the main union and that's what I was told, so that's why I decided to make my own (when I finally found out that's why the IAC wasn't and couldn't control the engine idle speed).

Let's just say I have a 23 year old car, that I've had for 7 years now, and that just about anything that can go wrong has at one point or another... I've been through just about everything, from flat tires, stuck brakes, and missing interior parts to a blown engine and malfunctioning transmission. I've gone through 2 sets of tires, 4 MAF sensors, countless missing bolts, screws, and the entire exhaust at one point or another. I graduated from auto tech school almost 2 years ago now and this has been a hobby of mine since I was around 10, but it seems, with the current economy, that this is going to remain a hobby until I can find a way to relocate to a place where there is a job available because there's nothing around here, that's for sure.