So I found online a guy put 20 psi of boost to a 2.8 and was making close to 500 hp... I be also looked around at doing swaps 2.8-3.4 seems to be the most common but I have also seen the 3500 swap and now im contemplating an idea of a 3900 swap with maybe a m90 or a m112 posssibly with a turbo to compensate for the hp drop at the top end with the supercharhger ill look up numbers for that later though, I think I can build my own intake to accept the supercharger but im just wondering what is all required in a 3900 swap? Horse power if I or anybody would build something like this would be (by a guestamation from superchargersonline.com) would be 490 hp? sounds like fun with a 400 lbs engine vs a 350 which ways about 700? Any ideas, or thoughts would be good

 

Just adding that th fuel im thinking of using would be e85 which is really avaliable in th midwest and it shows to be able to handle 18:1 compression ratio... it's also cheap $2.50 a gallon last I checked

 

I would use just turbo myself. With the turbo technology available now, they will spool quite low and breath all the way through the usable RPM range, selected properly.

I'm contemplating a 3900 swap in my car as well. Completely different chassis, so what I need to do to install one won't apply to your F-body.

 

I think that if gut going to swap an engine for more power you misewell go for the larger cubes even if it isn't as easy to install

 

I think you should post a link to the video, we all would love to see a 500 HP 2.8.

 

Hey I'm sure a 2.8 can make 500 horse.... once.....

Trust me it is NOT worth the money making a v6 car fast. Or trying at least. Especially one that old.

 

Thats a misnomer, esp depending on how fast you want to go, for example if you just want to keep up with a stock v8 car its not all that difficult, I reckon my car could hold off a stock 305. Once I get aluminum heads it could probably hold its own against a stock 350.

 

A 2.8L V6 could do it. It would have to be built though, you can't just ram 20psi through a stock 2.8L and expect it to live.

The Super/Turbo combo idea has been done.

One company makes the "twincharger" kit for ecotec motors in the Cobalt SS, they regularly make near 400 at the wheels.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Se9ry...eature=related

However, the Cobalt SS makes 260hp with a turbo, and the N/A ecotec makes 170hp, 30hp more than a stock 3.1L V6 did back in the day.

 

The ecotec motors also have a much more power minded design than the 2.8/ 3.1. Remember that the ecotec motors are not limited to a market bracket below a 155hp v8. Also, the 2.8/ 3.1, in other cars, filled a similar niche to that of the new ecotec motors. But in regards to power out put, I don't think all that much would have to be done to a 2.8 to get it to run 20lbs of boost, or make 4-500hp (boosted of course). I think the block and rotating assembly are strong enough, but that may be stretching the boundaries a little. The motor would just have to be purpose built to deal with the boost, if a 1.8l Honda can make an insane amount, why can't a 2.8l American v6?




EDIT: I just realized that I agreed with you while thinking I was disagreeing you. But the point was that I feel, from what I have read and interpreted, that building a 500 HP 2.8 wouldn't be as difficult as the general consensus would have one believe.

 

I know nothing about V6 cars - except that comparing Japanese motors to American motors is comparing apples to oranges, not even a good point for arguement - Japanese 4 cyl and 6cyl tech will win over American everyday.

Maybe a 2.8 could be built for 500. But, from a purely cost persepctive, you could just as easily do a LSx swap and be guaranteed 500 success. Sure, you could be the one kid on your block that can say he has a 500hp 2.8L V6, but is that really worth the several thousand Washingtons minimum to achieve. 99% of folks will stand there, and say "really cool man", but as they walk away they be making fun at your $ per hp cost.

 

*sigh*

People still don't get it....

It doesn't cost anymore to make 500 HP from a v6 than it does a V8.

A turbo is a wonderous thing.

Careful planning is an even more wonderous thing.

V8s are going be to be going away very soon, due to the fuel prices.

It's nice to have the efficiency in the most common driving (idle/low RPM cruise), and then the power only when needed, via forced induction.

I surprised and impressed many people with my turbo 3.2L, that I built for FAR less than a V8 swap would have cost me. (It was about $1300 USD at the time), and it kept up with and even surpassed a couple V8 vehicles in performance. Given what I know now, I could make that beast even better.

My Nissan 2.8L I6, that has all stock internals is well north of 200 HP, I don't have an exact nimber, because last time I was at the track, was just after I added the turbo and EFI, with no intercooler and it wasn't very well tuned. Trap speeds indicated 207 WHP at the time. I can tell it has gone well up since then with better tuning, DIS swap and an IC. That engine, is pretty asthmatic. Maybe slightly better than a stock genI 2.8, but no where near the flow of the genII or genIII 660 parts.

I'll stick with my 660s, because they are reliable, light, compact, easy to work on, and have untapped potential.

 

a 2.8 can infact make 500+ hp though i really wouldnt use a 2.8 as the base, deffinatly start with the 3.1 or the 3.4.

the good thing is if u use a 2.8 u hhave a really thick top ringland which will hold p to more abuse then a 3.1/3.4 piston

 

Also the statement about the japs being ahead of us on smaller displacement engines doesn't hold true anymore, clearly someone hasn't heard of the 3.6 llt and ford's counterpart v6 that both make about 300 hp stock.
Also I doubt the v8 is going to be going away, sure its not used in non performance oriented cars these days, but I don't see the american automotive industry axing the v8s on their performance cars, least of all the higher end models, v8s can get fairly decent mileage these days. They won't axe it for the same reason all the performance cars we make are rwd, a lot of americans just wouldn't readily accept a fwd car as a performance car, or anything without a v8 as what most people call muscle, personally I make the distinction between muscle and modern muscle, but most of the population these days calls all the american performance cars muscle cars.....I would however say that v6s and 4 cyls have definitely become more common and gained some more acceptance especially with current output levels exceeding older v8s, but a lot of people would be pretty POed if the mustangs and camaros could only be had with a v6 or 4 cyl. There is also the issue of how gd heavy performance cars are these days, I mean comeon....a 3800 lb camaro and a 2 ton challenger......the mustang is one of the lightest ones at 3500 lbs....

 

I want to see this video or any kind of proof of a 2.8 making those kind of numbers and holding. The gen1 660's will stretch the mains. There's a guy making 475whp and 550tq who asked us to make 4 bolt mains for his 3.2l TT in his Chevette, but he decided to keep buying blocks since it was cheaper lol.

We never got dyno numbers on the 3400/3500 turbo, but the trans spilled it's guts at over 300whp upper half way through rpm. The t3 housing was too small, turbo would choke at 12psi, but the Corsica ran 12's all day spinning 7" slicks, full interior, sound system etc.

 

It's a shame that your timing was locked when we were at the dyno that day. How much boost were you pushing, and what HP/TQ did it end up with again....?

 

I wouldn't call this crazy, but it's possible. the 3900's top end flows even better than my ported 3500 heads. 500HP would be easy.

 

LZ9 heads flow as good as LS1 heads I think. 60degree V6 has a flowchart on them. They are upper 250s. And this is with a 2v 1.87"/1.52" setup. By .300" they are topping 200cfm! L98 heads don't get anywhere near that at max lift.

Add this with variable cam phasing and variable intake track and this explains why the 3900 series motor is such a performer. Sadly there aren't many aftermarket parts for it. I can't find headers for my G6 GTP or I'd buy'em.

 

Generally when no aftermarket parts exist its boost or nitrous,lol, its the same way for fans of the 3.4 dohc and the quad 4s for the most part.

 

Not alot of room in the bay for a turbo and its piping.

Wonder what the heads could do with mild clean-up.

 

That's where aftermarket hoods come in, or modifying the stock one..

 

LOL That sounds accurate. I should have got an ebay t71 before I nuked my 2.8 and stuffed it with 20psi instead of 10psi and a 200 shot of nitrous.

Maybe I'll put compound turbos on it after all, I never took the block over to the scrapper. Why toss a good block? It could see new life uuber cheap with a 3400 top end and 30 psi... once.

 

Just run it on a tank of xylene. It'll be fine.

 

i am an old school believer ... "THERE IS NO REPLACEMENT FOR DEPLACEMENT" sure hondas and other jap cars are "peppy" but i have yet to be impressed with one. And that those thousands that youre gonna dump in a 2.8 and put it in a 350 and see what car produces more torque and hp...then run em my money is on the v8 my point is this...say you put in 3000$ in a 2.8 to achieve 500 pony's ok..now take that same 3 g's and put it in a 350 and i can gurantee to will surpass 500 by a long shot...my almost stock 350 carbed engine in my nova puts 356 ponys to the pavement and thats only with a cam,ported heads,and oversized valves (junkyard motor 240$,maybe 600$ in the machinework/carb/cam) imagine what i could do with what it will cost you to boost that 2.8?

 

While what you say is true you have to consider that most people don't mod their v8s past levels that a v6 can obtain with boost, how many street driven cars are out there with more than 500 hp that didn't come with near or close to that stock? If you only want 500 hp why take the extra weight on the nose with a v8, when you can stay with a v6 that will have quicker throttle response, better handling, and better economy, not to mention its unique, I'm absolutely dying to throw an m90 on my 3.4 with aluminum heads, should easily get 400 hp, might even try twincharging with 2 SCs, though atm I am still having trouble finding a job and have more pressing matters to deal with on the car. But there is also the uniqueness of having a beast v6, esp an older american one since most people don't bother trying with em. Btw how much does an all iron v8 weigh? I'm guessing 450-600 range? Cause should be noted the iron 60/6s only weigh 300-400 depending on how much stuff is on it, fully dressed is about 400 I believe.

 

What v8 are we talking about here? You can put $3k into a turbo L98 and still be in the 400hp range. An LS motor will eat up most of the $3k just getting it in let alone turboing. You could get an LT1 fairly cheap and vortec heads are decent but I think you're misinterpriting how cheap a v6 can be done. I can grab a salvaged 3500 for $500 and a $300 ebay turbo and be at 500hp.

 

depends ive seen a jy 350 built and run 9's for a few
hundred bucks on the turbo forums.but yeah for around 9 bucks u could deff have one bad v6 motor

 

very compelling arguement im interested in seeing what happens here (lol and btw i think my engine weight in at 7and change) pics and vids of this bulletproof 500hpp v-6 please please (and costs)

 

The 3500 weighs 340lbs minus the alt, ps pump and ac - that's with the forged crank and cast exhaust manifolds.

 

I'm just throwing out here the parts I would get for such a build and the cost...but....
forged pistons ~$550
twin 255 lph fuel pumps ~$90 for chinese knockoff
delta cams cam+reman lifters $120
62# injectors if memory serves? ~$350
dual 3 core intercoolers ~$300?
e85 for high octane rating, ~$250 for braided fuel lines
ms2 ECM $200-250
3x00 heads and intake swap ~$300 for the big stuff, probably another $200 for all the little things like DIS conversion
magnaflow cat+dynomax catback, ~$200 if the rebate is still going on
custom headers+ceramic coating ~$500
misc bearings for engine ~$100
sealed power rings ~$200
electric WP ~$160
electric PS pump conversion using mr2 parts ~$300?
twin turbos ~$400? I'll let project89 weigh in on if thats an accurate cost estimate for some appropriately sized and decent quality turbos...
MLS HGs ~$150
ARP studs everywhere ~$200?
windage tray+crank scraper ~$200
Add another $500 for margin of error and unexpected costs=
$5070 for a 2.8 that should make 500 hp with relative ease and decent reliability. By comparison the avg lsx swap costs about 4 grand I believe for stock swap including transmission, and some of my cost estimates could be a lot lower, like custom headers would be a lot cheaper if you could fabricate yourself and outsource for ceramic coating.

This is more or less the setup I would like to go with myself in search of 500+ hp with some differences being I want to do twin SCs cause I don't think its been done to a 60/6 before, and I would also probably get a 3500 forged crank, and if not titanium rods, I would at least try to get modified SBC rods.

 

forget twins the ebay gt45 turbo costs 279$ shipped and will be good to about 550rwhp
63# injectors wont get u close to 500hp worth of fuel on e85, lets just say i maxed out a set of 83#'ers on e90

ur engine rebuild parts prices are also over by a bunch

 

Yeah I honestly couldn't remember if I had specced out that #/hr for e85 or not on those power levels and didn't feel like checking,lol. But if one sub $300 turbo could get it to 550, that extra $100 can just work towards bigger injectors.

 

u need 90ish pound injectors to flow enough e85 for 500+hp at 42psi ,83#'ers squeak by with slightly higher fuel presures

 

Good to know, the main thing I've been wondering lately though is whether or not a 60/6 block could handle 20 psi of boost? And if some might handle it better than others? I know everything else can be made to handle it with non stock parts, and I would think that a cast iron block could handle 20 psi but I honestly don't know.

 

boost presure is irrelevant,its the tune and power levels that kill stuff.
400 hp at 7 psi is no different then 400hp @ 15 psi or 400 hp n/a

ive also spiked some of my stuff into the 25+ psi range couldnt tel u how high as my boost gauge stoped at 25 psi

 

According to RC Engineering's calculator, which with the parameters input assumes a BSFC of .65, a delta fuel pressure of 43.5 PSIG and a max duty cycle of 80%, 68 lbs/hr injectors will support 500 HP on a V6.

So pushing the injectors a little harder, say, into 85% DC, we get 64 lbs/hr rating.

Add a couple PSIG, say 48 PSIG delta, we get 60 lbs/hr injector size.

Or we can pull the DC back to 80%, because people are scared at running anything over that for some reason, with a delta fuel pressure of 50 PSIG, we get a flow rating of just over 63 lbs/hr.

Now you might be sitting there saying, these are just calculations, but in my testing it is very accurate.

I ran 19 lbs/hr injectors at 100% DC and a delta fuel preassure of 48 PSIG to achieve 250HP crank HP (on a dyno). The calculations say I was running a BSFC of .5 at that point which also goes along with the engine being slightly lean at max load.

I've also reverse engineered a few proven builds for injector size and show the calculations to be accurate for them as well, with the "undersized" injectors.

I don't understand why people want to put HUGE injectors in their cars, when it really is not needed. All it does is make idle tuning more difficult, which can cause tail pipe emissions to be poor.

I have a set of 42 lbs/hr injectors to go in my Datsun, but I don't think I'll install them and just run my 33s at higher DC or high pressure, for my goals.

 

when using gasoline those figures are great, but when moving to fuels as e85/e90 u need almost dbl the fuel flow for a given hp

 

What he said, reason being a unit of gasoline is more combustible than a unit of e85, hence a lot more fuel is required because it has less condensed power potential than gasoline. It's one of the main reasons you can't just put e85 into a car not setup for it.

 

So then tell me, why would you want to use E85?

 

cheaper then racegas lmao,

octane rating varies from winter to summer, but its between 106-112, and turbo cars love running on e85.summer blend is always higher since it contains more ethanol

hell look at my 3.0L with 11.0-1 cr it would never run on pump gas maybe without the turbo it would but it runs perfect on e85,but i also built the motor with the plan to run e85

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0Wp1MbNp-8 Yes our shity american V6s and the crappy turbos cant make a v6 faster then most V8s.... heres a video for proff, i know its not a 3.1/3.4 but its still an american v6

 

On the nail, cheaper than race fuel, higher octane the pump gasoline.

 

With quality control like that I can see why you'd want to run it.

 

e85 isn't anywhere near race gas. The race car has stock fp, bigger inj and tuned prom

e85 isn't worth it in the end when you need to run 30+ more % IMO.

 

its done like that based on temperature of the area its sold in
full e85 in the winter were its below 30* would have a hard time starting, thats why the blend varys from winter to spring time

first

u e85 has a wider range of afrs u can run then gas so with some tunning u will lose only around 1-2 mpg on most cars during normal driving conditions
depnding on how u tune it wot isnt to bad though the richer u run the e85 the more power it makes to a point

e85 will also make more power over race fuel if the tune is right

 

Terrible music but nice video. One of those scenes was here in denver and it was a 9 sec run. That takes some effort considering a 20% drop in power at this alititude (on a good day).

 

Hey sorry I've been busy putting my m62 blower in my 2.8 I have in my car now but anyhow what about using the 80# per hour e85 injectors from summit?

 

I know its a slightly old thread, but you need to google search for some calculators for injector size, and you will probably need to know how much boost and power you will make, which there are also calculators out there for, also you should change the fuel lines and get a bigger pump as well, and make sure its all e85 compatible, it can corrode certain materials.

 

And while yes there are plenty of fuels with higher octanes than e85, using such fuel in a DD car is extremely impractical, its not like you can just drive to the gas station and get that stuff at the pump.

 

Betcha I can. :P

It is only one gas station and it is located at a race track, so that might have something to do with it, but you can buy 110 any time from there.

 

What if you wanted to take it on the hot-rod power tour? Or another such trip? You would be limited in that you'd have to plan your stops to coincide with stations that carry 110, or you would have to carry enough fuel to complete the round trip.

Just playing devils advocate here. There are reasons to tune a car to run on regularly available fuel.