Ok, Superchargers work on the concept of ramming air down the throat of the engine for better combustion of fuel.

Theory: What if you connect an adjustable speed fan between the air filter and air box? Will it give a few more ponies? Will this throw off the air-fuel ratio? If so can that be off-set by adjusting the a/f ratio via O2 sensor?

Has anyone tried this or have a better idea of what might happen?

-Erik W. '86 Firebird 2.8L MPFI

 

First off, haven't seen your name around, so welcome to the board, and glad to see someone local. We should swing wrenches when we're both back form school sometime. (I'm from Palatine, just in Normal for school). As for your idea, notoriously known as the "deckercharger," it's been tried, some companies even sell a version of it, but the math doesn't work out. No matter how high of a speed fan you employ, the technology just isn't there to displace as much air as you're sucking in n/a. I guess with enough gear ratio and a starter motor you could do it, but that's just not feasible. Keep coming up with the ideas though, they just might work!

-Reno

 

Not true! I could shove 800 cfm into my throttle body if I could get the 12 amps of 110v AC to each of the 2 blowers! =P (note this converts to over 150 amps of 12v DC.. it ain't gonna happen without use of a really big honda generator..)
Basically it won't work, sorry. We've tried, we've failed.. actually I think someone got it to work on a lawn mower..

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'86 Camaro SC, black /w silver racing stripes
2.8l MPFI/700r4
In search of new v8 engine & transmission
MSD coil, Accel 8mm wires, SplitFire plugs, Gabriel hijackers

 

Was there a leaf blower super charger by Black and Decker? I thought I saw one on top of the hood of a BMW once?? Ha!

 

There is a company that has/sells em... it flows 750cfm and is good for 1 lbs boost and claims 7 to 11 hp.... for 350.00. Go NOS for 450.00 and have 50 to 100 extra ponies on command. goto yahoo and keyword electric supercharger... you will have to find it but its there.

 

LOL.. my god, there is one.
http://www.electricsupercharger.com/...m/autoprod.htm
They claim it's good for 1 psi of boost, but closer inspection of the documentation states they're getting 1/2 psi of that from unrestricting the air box (decent intake piping and a conical K&N), so it's actually only good for 1/2 psi for those of us with cold air.. It's axial fan type, not impeller, so it sucks on the pressurization side.. but it can flow 780 cfm! =P
They make another version that advertises 1.7 psi too with double the current draw (the 300 buck one draws 50 amps).. I think I could make my leaf blower system far more effective than this just using a smaller leaf blower =P... .. holy cow.. I could.. make.. .. uhm....
Ok, site states 2.5l uses 265 cfm at 6000 rpm.. my calculations were WAY OFF.. that puts us around 300 CFM at 6000.. I don't think my engine even revs to 6000, so.. my little leaf blower thing calcs 400 CFM for 1320 watts.. 1/3 atmosphere at least? 6 psi.. hey.. this could work guys! I mean, even though the leaf blower is a pressurization effective impeller type, I'm sure it can't be THAT well sealed.. so I figure it can't produce more than 5-7 lbs of boost.. aww yeah... lol, their 1.7psi version draws more power than the leaf blower.. so if their test cars can take that 100 amp draw... whee!!!
This 400 cfm blower is 50 bucks at walmart, btw..


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'86 Camaro SC, black /w silver racing stripes
2.8l MPFI/700r4
In search of new v8 engine & transmission
MSD coil, Accel 8mm wires, SplitFire plugs, Gabriel hijackers

 

If the numbers are right, and you can maintain pressure, 6 lbs of boost should blow your rings real properly on a 100,000 mile+ engine. Hey, go for it and let us know! Consider though that after a certain pressure, the motor will back off, and then the whole pressurization thing might be a bigger problem then you thought...

-Reno

 

6 psi was a high estimate.. I seriously don't expect a leaf blower's impeller system to be that effective.. but it should at least put out 3-4 psi.. and that puts us with an extra 20-30 horsepower. sounds like it's damn well worth it for the money. about the most expensive part is going to be the inverter to run it.. 1500 watt continuous load inverters aren't cheap. Probably do most of my preliminary testing with an extension cord.. and hey, if it fails, I needed a yard vac/leaf blower anyway =P

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'86 Camaro SC, black /w silver racing stripes
2.8l MPFI/700r4
In search of new v8 engine & transmission
MSD coil, Accel 8mm wires, SplitFire plugs, Gabriel hijackers

 

If you pull it off, I think we all expect detailed instructions and parts lists ASAP!

-Reno

 

Unfortunate problem with that is I don't know if I'm keeping my 6 much longer, and the blower won't do anything for even a 305.. if for some reason I do keep my 6, I'll definitly be looking at this, but since I probably won't, here's a preliminary parts list:
1 Weed Eater top-of-the-line leaf blower, box states 400 cfm @ 12 amps 110 AC draw.
1 K&N conical air filter.
Misc metal exhaust piping for intake, including a preferably custom made T section which starts to point air flow in the direction of the throttle body before merging into the main intake duct
1 one-way air valve (this will have to be custom made.. and I do mean *custom*.. never seen one on the market)
Microswitch for WOT activation plus custom mounting
A relay capable of handling at least 120 amps of DC, 150 if possible for that 'just in case' feeling
A power inverter capable of delivering 1500 watts of 110 AC continuous load. (leaf blower will draw 1320-1440 watts)
I highly reccomend a boost/vacuum gauge which reads +/- 10psi
There might need to be a pressure bleed valve near the blower in case I'm wrong about its boost production.. don't want to go blowing up your engine.

The one-way valve is so you can still use a stock airbox with this system attached. When not running the blower will be highly restrictive, if not totally. The valve will probably be fairly difficult to tune perfectly, however the general idea is that the valve sits right after your stock airbox, and if the intake pressure drops below the outside air pressure, it opens up and allows air in through the airbox. I'm talking extremely light materials and sensitive springs for this, so a screen like those on TPI mass airflow sensors would be desirable. I also would reccomend using a clear tube when designing this to make sure it works right.
Without the inverter and boost gauge I expect this project to cost less than US$100.
There is no real documentation on how to put this together.. it's all in my head.. so I really couldn't write a how-to.. and there's no garauntee it'll even work =P But hey.. one can hope, eh?
For those willing to try this, first off, make sure you have a use for a leaf blower/yard vac (or don't modify it so you can still return it), second, at least borrow a boost gauge and rig it onto the blower to make sure the thing *does* produce boost.. kinda useless to go any further if it doesn't. I'd reccomend testing this in your driveway using an extension cord before dumping money into an inverter.. probably at least 300 bucks for an inverter this big. If it fails at this point, you're probably out about 50 bucks for the intake piping, K&N, valve, microswitch, and relay.. some of these might not even be needed to test this when parked.. and you'll have a yard vac! Besides, the intake piping and K&N can go ahead and be made into a usual cold air system =) means your remaining useless items would be just a valve, switch, and relay.

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'86 Camaro SC, black /w silver racing stripes
2.8l MPFI/700r4
In search of new v8 engine & transmission
MSD coil, Accel 8mm wires, SplitFire plugs, Gabriel hijackers

 

I dont think the leaf blower will work. Once the impeller runs into pressure it becomes very ineffficient. I seriously doubt this idea will get u very far but I do encourage trying it as I am curious as to see if anyone sees a diff. Just my .02

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91 RS W/carbed 350, Vortec heads, performer rpm, Comp cams Xtreme energy 224/230 duration and .477/.480 lift. BFG Drag radials. 3.42 posi,Corvette servoed 700r4, 3000 stallconverter. Edelbrock TES, 3inch cat, flowmaster with single 2.5 inch exit.
Best time yet to come
12's?? :crossthumbs:

 

Hey, ran some numbers this morning out of boredom. At 5500 RPM (my yellow line), the 2.8 (multiply more for 3.1/3.4) sucks 543 CFM, in short, a **** load (35%) more then even this miracle 400 CFM leaf blower would put out. I think you'd choke your engine after what then, 4500? 4000? Not even in it's powerband yet. Not trying to slam the idea, but I've worked on the same thing a few years ago. Whatever angle you go out, it's not gonna work.

-Reno

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'88 Firebird LB8
"Cerberus"
http://www.angelfire.com/il/Firebird28/index.html

 

Reno, your calculation is inaccurate. You didn't factor that the engine is only moving *half* its air per crankshaft revolution (4 stroke, not 2 stroke). The actual attempted air intake at 100% volumetric effieiency (yeah right) is approximatly 272 cfm @ 5500 rpm, 232 cfm @ 5500 rpm @ 85% volumetric efficiency. To illustrate my point here in real world figures, let's transform your miracle 543 cfm 2.8l v6 into a miracle 1086 cfm @ 5500 rpm 5.6l v8.. so what's so performance about a 700 cfm carb now? So you're not slamming the idea.. just letting me prove the possibilities further.

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'86 Camaro SC, black /w silver racing stripes
2.8l MPFI/700r4
In search of new v8 engine & transmission
MSD coil, Accel 8mm wires, SplitFire plugs, Gabriel hijackers

[This message has been edited by TechSmurf (edited February 21, 2001).]

 

<sigh> the oh so famed dekercharger.. ive seen the site for the electric supercharger before.. looks like a joke.. the gain it gives you you'll lose by placing a heavy load on the alternator.. at one time me and a buddy attempted to affix a gas leaf blower to a chevette's 4 banger with no success.. although in the field of lawnmowers, a rechargable battery operated leaf sweaper appeared to improve performance ever so slightly...

 

Hmm, edumacate me... What's this 2/4 stroke stuff? I thought 1 RPM was from TDC to TDC, so all pistons would have gone through their stroke fully once, right? Now if your displacement is 2.8l, then if everything moves in and out once, that should be 2.8l, right?

::scratching head::

-Reno

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'88 Firebird LB8
"Cerberus"
http://www.angelfire.com/il/Firebird28/index.html

 

wrong.......It takes 2 revolutions of the crankshaft to make one powerstroke.

Intake: 1 stroke
compression: 2 stoke
power: 3 stroke
exhaust: 4 stroke

2 strokes = One revolution

 

Since you don't understand the concept (which alot of people don't), I'll put my attitude away briefly and try to explain as best I can..
Let's start with the camshaft.. camshaft rotates only 180* per crankshaft revolution.. why? Simple.. an automotive internal combustion engine operates on 4 strokes for one complete cycle. Imagine a single piston, at TDC.

Intake: Crankshaft rotates 180*, during which time the camshaft rotates 90*, opening the intake valve, piston decends, sucking in air/fuel, intake valve closes.
Compression: Crankshaft rotates another 180, piston rises, compresses the air/fuel. Camshaft rotates another 90 but does nothing special.
Power: Spark plug fires (this actually happens at a variable time towards the end of the compression stroke, but for simplicity's sake..), ignites air/fuel, air/fuel pushes piston down, causing crankshaft to rotate another 180 and expending the energy of the air/fuel. Another 90 for the cam...
Exhaust: Finally the cam gets to do something again.. opens exhaust port, crank rotates 180, piston rises agian, pushing exhaust out, exhaust port closes, and a new cycle begins.

And this completes the life of our 4 cycle engine with 720* of crankshaft rotation and 360* of camshaft rotation.

If you need visuals search yahoo for 'how engine works' or something.. found a nice site with how an automatic trans works too..

Oh, forgot a slightly important bit that illustrates the overall workings, during all of these strokes, with a 4 cyl engine or larger, there is *always* at least once cyl on its power stroke helping the others to go. Now when you get down to metros, their engines are stuck trying to use the momentum of the rotational mass to keep everything going 1/3 of the time =P This is also why v8s produce so much torque.. there's always 2 cyls on their power stroke (when one is half complete, another cyl starts its)

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'86 Camaro SC, black /w silver racing stripes
2.8l MPFI/700r4 /w special 2nd gear delete option
In search of new v8 engine & transmission
MSD coil, Accel 8mm wires, SplitFire plugs, Gabriel hijackers, beginnings of cold air induction.

[This message has been edited by TechSmurf (edited February 21, 2001).]

 

yunno i thought bout this when i had my v6,,,but i thought bout usin a air compressor no kidding. yunno get a little one that would make about 90psi or so,,then use a valve regulator put it in the interior of the car so you can adjust teh pressure while you drive,and i dont mean usin this all the time jus havin like a switch to turn the compressor on.or have the compressor on all the time but usin like a on off valve along with teh pressure regulator and just run the air hoses right into the air intake ,i mean think about it yuh ever put yuh handz in front of a air comressor blower nozzle ? thas alot of air ! i dunno jus one of the lil things ive thought bout when i had my 6er btw its been about 3 weeks now an there still not done paintin my car. im gettin mad.i posted it in appearnce board jus incase yuh wanna c it ,its been awhile so yuh might have to go back a few pages..lol,,and with the valve regulator you could adjust how much "boost" yuh want sounds cool dont it but the all important question is will it work lmfao i dunno never tried but ive thought bout it alot .ponder that idea yall btw again how yall v6 guyz doin? i hear greame got rid of his 3rd gen? say it aint so!yall miss me? lmao


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89 pontiac firebird{looks like a trans am }
406 pontiac {carbed}
12 boly posi rear end
17 inch zr1 silver wheels
11 inch wide in back
bfg g force ta tires
maui blue hardtop
4th gen rear wing
fast as hell

 

While air compressors do great for producing pressure, they don't move very much air as far as volume is concerned.. simply wouldn't work.

------------------
'86 Camaro SC, black /w silver racing stripes
2.8l MPFI/700r4
In search of new v8 engine & transmission
MSD coil, Accel 8mm wires, SplitFire plugs, Gabriel hijackers

 

Yeah... I just saw it tonight (hence the bringing back of this post....) here it is:

http://<a href="http://www.bimmers.c...index.html</a>

I laghed my *** off when I saw this...

------------------
-------------------
-Steve-
--'87 Camaro LT --
Successful 2.8-&gt;3.4 swap...

 

Good site to see how an engine works and it has tons of other good stuff too, turbochargers, and well almost anything you could think of automobile or otherwise, and if you can't find it ask and they'll write up an answer!

http://www.howstuffworks.com

Yes i'll admit i never knew how an engine actually worked until i started getting interested readin this site and finally looked it up. Very interesting!

------------------
1992 RS 3.1
1985 POS (SC 2.8 CFI)

 

well lets see what I can come up with. First that 300 plus bucks for 1 psi is not worth it by any means.

The air compressor can work. It expells air at a given pressure I:E; PSI. Now the effectivness of it is pure hope because you would need at least a 6-7 horsepower compressor and the tubing would be a nightmare. The electical draw would kill any alternator you could get to fit.(youd need that nifty underhood generator they have for super duty trucks...) Now if you can mount a 16 inch around generator under your hood go for it. You would need to figure out the psi/cfm matching from a 1/4 inch peice of tube...No thanks I am not up for that...but roughly I would think that you would have to devide the psi you are looking for by 4 or something like that to equal what that 1/4 inch hose will put out. I dunno..if some one wants to go for feel free...thats my .02

 

Get the board to do a test on it to prove if it works or not.. get one member to buy it at a reduced cost with thrid gen backing and lets see what occurs.

 

Like everyone really says dollar for dollar NOS is the best...

 

lol the deckencharger idea again! Get nitrous instead. It will actually work.

 

I've heard of the deckercharger idea before & the fan idea before (like the ones in our computers) which doesn't force enough air into the intake, but has anyone considered the use of a "squirrel-type" fan? they move air much faster so they must work

 

If someone wants to grant some financial backing, I'm silly enough to do this.. I've already drawn up schematics for what has to be done, too.. 50 for the leaf blower, 30 for the conical K&N (I think), 20 for ducting and misc parts, and then it's just the bloody inverter, which I don't have a price on yet. If it's proven to not work and doesn't blow up the inverter in the process, I'll even return the inverter and split that investment back up among the contributors. (If it does work, I'm keeping it all as a gift for my time used to discover a really cheap forced-air induction system though, and will release full technical specifications with pictures to the board.. may even custom build the uni-directional air valve for sale for the guys that want to do it =P) Or if someone has a connection to get the inverter or air filter cheap, just send as such (1340 watts RMS minimum on the inverter).. .. whoops, need a boost/vac gauge too since it's for testing (may be able to find a friend with one).

If anyone wants to place that much faith into this project, be my guest.. otherwise it'll be at least 6 months before I get an income worthy of attempting what has been repeatedly stated as impossible...

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'86 Camaro SC, black /w silver racing stripes
2.8l MPFI/700r4 /w special 2nd gear delete option
In search of new v8 engine & transmission, now contemplating t5 swap to get me out of this mess.
Misc Mods: Cut air box, '83 Firebird spoiler.
Performance Parts: MSD coil, Accel 8mm wires, SplitFire plugs, Gabriel hijackers.
Audio Mods: Pioneer DEH-P3000, two 12" Optimus Pro Audio subs in hand-made enclosure each powered by a 260 watt Optimus amp. Working on shaving the box for weight.
My Homepage, with pics.