Hey guys.
I got my rebuilt engine fired up yesterday, however it sounded ticky / tappy (hard to describe).
Could it be one of the lifters not pumped up with oil yet.
I only ran it for 30 seconds, then another 30 seconds after a few minutes later.

Top end was not rebuilt, only the bottom end due to low oil pressure and worn bearings. Crank was re-ground and new set of bearings put in.
Checked clearances with plastigauge before assembly and clearances were good.

Guess I will need to wait till next weekend before working on it again, however could it just be no oil yet at the valves ?. Should I run it for a few minutes and see if it clears up or should I pull off the covers and check valves (how do I check them for oil ?).

Thanks,
Rhys

 

Did you assemble the top end?? Mainly lashing in the valves.

 

I did not take any of the top end apart as it was fine before. just the bottom end.


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At the very least, take the intake manifold off and look down the lifter valley to make sure there isn't any rust or anything on the cam lobes that can cause problems. Then, undo the rocker nuts until every rocker has play and tighten the nuts (lifter fully down into bore/valve closed) until no vertical play in rocker arms PLUS between 1/2 and 3/4 turn. No more. If the noise continues after that, it may go away after a bit of run time. If not, you may have a lifter issue.

The thing you don't realize is that the oiling system in the 60* V6 is backwards. The CAM gets oil flow first, not the crank. This is solved with the GM PP Bow Tie aluminum block, but not in ours. If a rocker isn't getting oil, you may need to clean out the pushrod oiling bores...

 

ima second the valve lash.
rebuilt my friend honda motor and didnt tough the head but still it ticked and we just reset everthing and it was fine.

if your sure its not that get a stethescope or like a rubber hose and you can limit the guessing from there. hope this helps

 

Thanks guys.
I will start it up this weekend and have a listen with a hose or something, see if I can pinpoint the noise.

I'm a complete novice on the top end components. Do I have to pull the intake manifold off to see the lifters, not just the covers ?

Rhys

 

Yeah, the intake manifold has to come off to see the lifters. You have to pull most of the intake off anyway just to get the valve covers off so might as well just pull it all. How long did the engine sit? It could be that the lifters bled off and need to get oil in them again.
One thing you can do is pull the distributor out, get a drill with a socket and spin the oil pump to make sure you get oil all through the system.

 

Engine sat for 2 years. The last 6 months it sat upside down (complete) while I slowly worked on the bottom end.

I am going to pinpoint the sound tomorrow to make sure it's top end.
When I had a peek in the valve covers it looked REALLY sludgy in there. I was able to scoop some out with my finger.

If I was to remove just the valve covers, can I determine from there if the lifters have not pumped up with oil ?
How long a job is it to remove the intake manifold - then I guess I will then need new intake manifold gaskets. ?


As an alternate to removing and cleaning the intake etc, I saw somewhere that adding some ATF to the oil would clean it up. Is that worth a go instead of more disassembling (I was hoping to start assembling the car from now on in - hehe!)

Thanks,
Rhys

 

Tick Tick Tick - BANG!. Oh yeah, it stopped after about 2 minutes of getting it started. Seems to be siezed good. I am pissed to say the least.

Car is now pushed to the side of the garage while I ponder what to do with it.

Don't want to spend another 300 on crank re-grind and more bearings for it to happen again. It had not spun a bearing before I took it out.

I could buy an engine off CL or Scrap Yard, however I could be just buying another POS.

Decisions, decisions.

 

Look arround for another complete engine. IMO

Im not sure on what sort of market you have up there. But last fall I broke a ring and cracked a piston on my 3.1L. To me it was cheeper to just fine another complete engine and then check it out from the inside out. I found a running 1990 firebird(on CL)with the 3.1L that had 104K miles on it. I got the engine/trans as cheep as dirt out of the car. I took it down to the short block, pulled the pistons and then put it back together after I looked it all over well.

I have reved this baby to 6k rpms plus, put over 300Hp to it, and not had any issues as of yet.

These engines are pretty cheep. Even if you have to drive a bit. I bet you can find a complete good running 3.1/3.4L for under 500 bucks US all day. Best buys are to get one that someone wants to rip out to put in a V8.

 

Looking on CL there are a few S10 engines

Would an S10 engine fit it without taking a tremendous amount of stripping to get all the bird stuff on to it ?.
Is the cam different in the S10 engine ?

Thanks
Rhys

 

As long as its a 60* RWD engine it would work.

You had a MAF car before correct?? It was a 2.8L? A 2.8L would work well for ya if you can find a good one. IIRC the cam and converter on the s 10 was made for more TQ then HP. So it may have some more grunt to it but even less higher rpm power then you had before.

86-87 engines went from external to internal ballanced engines also (I think)

Also 2.8L s-10's are TBI(tuned barrel injection) IIRC. So you would want to toss the top end intakes and all the fueling items onto the 2.8L from the thirdgen

 

Hate to say it, but, since you're probably going to need to pull the intake and everything above it off anyways (if you go to an S10 engine), you should pull off the cylinder heads and look in the cylinders. Somehow, even though I had never dropped any bolts into the engine on my 2.8, a bolt ended up inside the #6 cylinder and wedged in the top of the piston.

May also be a cam issue...

 

dont bother with the 2.8 or a s10 engine it will be another 2.8 unles su get lucky and find one that is the 3.4 ht replacement engine.

u will be miles ahead if u can get ahold of a 3.4L out of a 93-94 camaro , much less miles on the engine and a bunch more power as a bonus.

if u get a 3.4 u will need to reuse the timing cover/ oil pan and intake off ur original motor but other then that it drops right in

 

Yes, the current engine has a MAF and is an 87. I'm not sure if it is internally or externally balanced (how does one tell ?)

I read about the 3.4 swap and there is some nasty innie plug that has to be pulled out - that puts me off a bit as I know I will be swearing at that (Unless someone has an easy method now to get those suckers out). Also the thread I was reading said you cannot use the 2.8 flywheel - you have to get a 3.1

I am all for getting a newer vintage engine tho, as long as it looks stock because I want to get Collectors plates (if I can ever get this bloody thing running that is!!).

Rhys

 

the best thing u can do is find a 90-92 3.1 fbody engine or even better is the 93-94 out of an f-body

the 3.1 u have to change only the intake , the 3.4 u have to change what i previously mentioned

3.1 = 20 hp gain
3.4 = 40hp iirc

it would be really dumb to put a 2.8 back in the car last year for the 2.8 in the fbody was 89 so by upgrading u will get a newer engine

 

eithe the 3.1 or 3.4 will look like a stock 2.8
what plug on the 3.4 are u refering to

 

Look arround for engines. The best bet is the 3.4L just becasue its newer and has a few extra hp to boot. But it all matters on what you can find in your area. Look on CL and any yards that you know of. Look for any and all. Then make a decision on what you are able to get.

Either way it doesnt matter on what you get. 2.8/3.1/3.4L there all the same to a point that you can easily toss it in your bird.

 

I was reading thru 'Dales 3.4 swap tech artical.' and in there it mentions a 2.8 has a fan sensor in the rear right head. The 3.4 has a innie plug in that location that you have to get out so you can fit the 2.8 fan sensor

I'm not sure what this sensor looks like - I don't remember a sensor in that location on my current 2.8 ?.

Also, Anyone know how I can tell if my current 2.8 is internally balanced (in case I need to re-use my flywheel).

Thanks,
Rhys.

 

Im about 99% sure your 1987 2.8L was internally balenced. Im sure someone will chime in to assure you of this.

So in 1987 the 2.8L crankshaft was internally balenced.

The flywheel or flexplate will have a weight on it if its externally balanced. In your case..the flywheel.

 

Oh I think I remember that Fan sensor now on the back of the right hand head. It's the starter side, pushed right up tight against a bracket.

I see a complete 1994 firebird on CL right now - has some body damage so is cheap, and 320,000 KM on it. It however does have a passed emmissions test - therefore probably will pass after the swap is done.

When I took the flywheel off I don't remember any weights hanging off it.

 

the plug is just a pipe plug a wrench or 3/8s ratchet will take the plug right out, though u may have to heat the head around the plug slightly with a propane torch or so to get it to break free , but its really not a hard job at all

 

http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/rd...544051149.html

This is the one isnt it? I like it. OBO=600 bucks or so...lol

 

Yes, your 87 is internally balanced. You will need to find an 88+ flywheel for it. The weight is on the engine side of the wheel... You can't possibly miss it.

Don't worry about the fan switch. It's a backup in case the ECM fan trigger fails. Haven't had one since 2004, and I'm not worried about it since the fan works fine without it. However, the one thing you DO need to worry about is the freeze plug in the back of the lower intake. If you swap over everything above the cylinder heads, you'll be fine, but if you leave the lower intake manifold, you WILL need to knock out the freeze plug in the back of the intake for the cold start injector, and the other plug next to the CTS for the CSI switch.

 

2.8s trigger the fan solely off that switch there is no ecm fan controll on a 2.8

 

I've gotta jump on the 3.4L train. Since you have to pull the whole engine anyway, your best bet is to get a 3.4 from a 93-95 Camaro/Firebird (if you want stick with a V6). I did this swap almost a decade ago and I LOVED it. Search CL and the junkyards in your area for a decent one and you'll be good to go.

 

Haha, no. Sorry. My 87 didn't. Even says in the FSM that the fan switch is redundant. Maybe on the 85s and earlier, but not on an 87. If that were true, then the ECM wouldn't turn the fan on when the A/C is running.

 

show me were the 302 ecm has a fan output
the ecm does not turn the fan on for the ac either thats done by one of the presure switches on the ac system

 

Yes, thats the one I saw. I emailed them tonite but no reply so far.
320k is a lot on the motor, but If it is running I get to hear it and drive it a bit before I pull it out.

So, been working on it tonite and got mostly everything back off the engine. Just need to drop the exhaust tomorrow and lift it out. Soon as it is out Im pulling the pan to see what happened. Will let you all know..........

 

pickapart.ca shows a 93 Camaro with the 3.4L engine and I think they're in Coquitlam. They are pretty cheap but I think you have to pull it yourself. Might be your best bet. Unfortunately the website doesn't list mileage. Seems to me they sell engines for $250 or something but I could be wrong.

Edit: their website says engines are $195 with $25 core charge

 

Pick-a-part is in Chilliwack, about 1 hr drive from me. Not a terrible distance, however I would have to make 2 trips there - one time to scope it out, and the 2nd to take my trailer and all my tools there to do the pull and cart it home.
I have never had much luck with junkyard engines so I am a little weary about getting one.

 

Oh dear - time for a new Engine I guess. OR should I do a new crank and rod ?.

Why did it fail after the rebuild?

I am still weary about buying a junkyard motor - I am not sure about how to check them to see if they are good or not.

 

Wow man. Im curious to how that rod broke like that on a 140Hp stock engine..... Who put it back together before?? Did they or you tq those caps down tight? Use some locktite? Im guessing you cap fell off, the rod/piston fell down and the crank just tore up that rod.

 

Maybe in the wee hr of the night or when you were away, someone took a crap in your cereal bowl, maybe to teach you a lesson about double checking your work, or to just be mean.

 

Maybe lol.
I borrowed a proper torque wrench from work to tighten all the caps. It was a special occasion for sure. I went over them twice to make sure all was good. damn it!

The motor ticked from the very moment it fired up after the rebuild. I wonder if it was already stressed. All the caps had numbers stamped on them, does that mean someone has been in the bottom end already (not sure if the factory numbers them ?)

 

You replaced that bearnings?? Did you check the clearences and such. Its just looks like the cap fell off from that pic. Can you find the studs in that mess> what do they look like?

 

that failure is directly related to the rod cap not being tightened. the cap fell off and the crank beat the hell out of the sides of the rod till it broke

 

Boohoo. I hope that it was not a loose cap
That will push me over the edge with this project.

 

a loose cap is the only way that would have happened , and as u can see the rod bolts are intact which right there tells me the nuts fell off if u can gather all the pieces and take a better picture of them including the bearings and inside the rod cap i can tell u exactly what the issue was.

but at this point im 95% sure the rod cap was never tightened, or was improperly tightened


if it was a weak rod it would have snapped the bolts or broken in a different place

it also looks like the bearing did not spin

 

It snapped right next to the bolts. Third pic shows them lying in the pan along with a chewed up bearing. I have not found the cap yet. Will have a look for that when I get home later.
The piston was right up in the bore - i had to pull it down to see the end of the chewed rod.

 

Found a replacement 2.8 engine. However.........
The guy no longer has the flywheel.
He thinks the engine was out of a 86 or 85 firebird. Mine is an 87.

I am not sure if my 87 flywheel will fit this engine. How do I know ?.

Took some pics of my flywheel, it has holes on one side and what looks like a cast in weight on the other side......that means it external balanced - right ?

Would be great if I can get my existing flywheel to work out for this replacement engine.

Thanks,
Rhys