hey yall
i've got a 2.8l v6 and well i want to try and break 200mph at bonneville. this is a newly start project and so far all i know is that i need the 3.4l. the only catch to this whole endeavor other than the fact that its a v6, is that i want to keep it naturally aspirated, no turbos or superchargers. i know that many of you will say its impossible and it might just be but i want to give it a shot.. for anyone who may be interested i will keep updating as the project slowly moves forward. also the whole reason im posting this is that im open to all sorts of suggestions so feel free to comment.

 

Consider that the fastest production car in the world (Bugatti Veyron) has a quad turbo, 16 cyl. engine and tops out at 250mph... I mean, the Lamborghini Diablo has a 200mph top speed.

A NA, GM V6 will never come close to 200mph...

 

Just did some quick online searching and the consensus is that between 550 and 650 WHEEL HP is needed to achieve speeds of 200 MPH in a 3000 lbs or so vehicle with a cd of between .35 and .45. That means you will have to make 600 to 700+ CRANK HP.

I have yet to hear of an NA 660 even breaking 300 HP. With forced induction I can see these numbers being hit, it is after all one of my goals to hit these high HP numbers, but I'm planning on a non conventional forced induction set-up.

I'll suggest that you look at the rules for each class, and see where your planned assembly of parts fits and what has been run with similar parts and then what chassis' they were attached to.

 

I've started planning this too!! Not 200mph without the buckets of money and knowledge I don't have but whatever can be managed in the engine class (F? G?). I think the '91/'92 body has the best chance of highest speed as it looks like the most aerodynamic of the 3rd gen body shapes. Keep up the posts. I'll start a thread too if I have time to really start on it. I'm also thinking about a vintage motorcycle class attempt!

 

The Vortec 4200 inline 6 has been over 200mph N/A in a slick bodied Opel GT. Here is a link to the record breaker..


http://www.inliners.org/race/black_opel/black_opel.html

http://www.blackopel.com/

You need that much power and just as good aerodynamics. Goodluck.

 

Definitely going to need a very high range transmission and low rear end gears and will probably be better off with forced induction so you can still call your car the fastest 60*v6.

 

maybe if you put it on a crotch rocket? either way its a pipe dream, IMO.


200mph on the salt flats vs. 200mph on the texas mile....way different. The salt flats has way more friction than asphalt. Wind shear, humidity, drag coeffiecient, etcetera are to be considered.

 

If it was easy most of would have done it already. There is challenging fun to be had all along the way. The planning, building and traveling to the flats. Then getting through tech and going through the licensing steps at lower speeds etc. Even if you don't get on the salt for some reason it's still a blast hanging out there. I met folks there who'd been trying for decades to get a record in some class and had no intention of giving up until they couldn't show up any more. A record is the ultimate goal but what it takes to get there, or nearly there, is reward enough.

 

Car and Driver made a 3rd gen firebird go 200 many years ago i think,lots of aero mods and I'm sure they used a 350, might be able to find it online. I'm sure others have too. Big task, good luck

 

200 Mph in the flats with a N/A 60* engine..... sorry but thats not gonna happend IMO. Now, start messing arround with some power adders, a alluminum head 60* engine and a crap load of $$ and you may be onto something...

 

Subscribed...I'm curious!

 

You need about 500hp to break 200mph in a stock bodied 3rd gen - some may need a bit less, others a bit more.

But if you were to aerodynamically massage a car so it would only need 400 to 425hp to reach 200mph, it just may be possible with a big power adder. Considering that the 3.7L NA Nissan 370Z motor only makes 350hp (at over 7k); don't expect the 3.4L V6 you have to reach the 425hp on the motor alone.

A mild 350 can put out 400 to 425hp without breaking a sweat, BTW.

 

were are u located , it cant be done in n/a form but with the right gearing and a turbo im willing to bet u can get close but it would prolly take a shot of nitrous to reach 200mph on a 2 mile run

ill be running my twin turbo iroc at boneville this year and id love to give u a hand with ur car if ur somewhat local. im almost done setting up my iroc to go for 200mph on the salt this summer , im still in need of a fire supression system , and proper tires , along with that i have to remove the steering colum lock to be legal

im not sure how aware u are of all the special equipment and saftey rules ur car must comply with to go 200mph , but its alot and not cheap at all

the other alternative is to run in the 130 or 150 mph class which requires nothing more then the proper speed rated tires , a simple roll cage , and a 2.5 or 5 lb fire extinguisher mounted inside the car within the drivers reach


i can gaurentte i can make a v6 3rdgen do 150 across the salt

 

And a turbocharged V6 can do the same.

Im curious to see where he goes with the build though. Add a power adder and give her helll. Itll surprise some ppl. But I would go and work your way up from 130 then 150 if you can do that first, before you go farther.

 

200 MPH with a NA 2.8 ?

Dude , the only way your hittin 200MPH would be to drop it out of a plane at about 25K feet

 

Actually Id have to do the math on the drag, density,lbs, and cs area but im pretty sure that the terminal velosity falling from a airplane isnt quite 200mph for our cars. More like 120-150 id guess of hand

 

nm didnt see u said n/a , i agree n/a will never happen ,

what he needs is a 10.0-1 - 11.0-1 cr 3.4 on e85 or methanol with a t67/t70 at around 23 pounds of boost threw a manual trans with a 2:73ish gear

 

heres just how i would do it

3.4 out of a 93-94 f-body

typical bottom end work and parts with a set of 3.4 dohc pistions for the increase in compression

port the heads run a modified 3.4 sfi intake
120# injectors with e85 or 100% methanol
something around the 272 cam grind
full on tubular turbo headers with a t67 and 3.5 inch downpipe

with a gutted car that thing would be close to going right around 200


for 150mph u wouldnt need much more then my or fasteddie's basic turbo builds

 

No doubt, over 400 to the wheels, and he let off while it was still pulling...

 

Subbed Curious?

 

If the goal is 200mph then you can just get a worked on 8 and go from there. My thought is to see what can be done with a 3.0 or so n/a 6. F and/or G engine class I think. With the right engine work/gearing/tuning etc. etc. 130 maybe to 150 should be within reach. One factor I don't know enough about is ram effect at those speeds and higher. Any thoughts/knowledge on that? You'd think 150 mph air funneled straight into the throttle body would help some.

 

i dont know why u would even try to do it n/a , a simple turbo kit will push a 2.8/3.1 into the 150mph class trust me ive dam near maxed a 145mph speedo with mine

ive taken a bone stock 2.8 to 118/120 but it took forever so i have no doubt u could build an n/a engine to go that fast on the salt 150 is maybe even doable n/a

but for the cost stick a turbo on it and be done with it and have a much more all around enjoyable car

to do the same with the engine in n/a form ur going to have to goto high compression big cam etc etc , which for one is a huge mismatch for the stock intake


ur also going to have to prep the bottom end to spin some high rpm


u dont have to do that witht he turbo or even nitrous

 

In the first post the original poster mentions NA somewhere around his third or fourth sentence . I wasn't tryin to break his ***** so much as to give him the idea in a somewhat joking way that there is no way a NA 2.8 thirdgen is ever gonna see 200MPH . I like it when people use their imagination with their cars , lots of good stuff has come of those imaginations over the years . Course , sometimes the ideas are just a bit TOO out there to ever be considered practical , and that's the truth for 200 mph in the manner the OP discusses .

PS , just curious , exactly HOW light has the lightest thirdgen been that's been home modified ? Maybe if the OP puts his on a serious diet , and goes for the turbo , it would come close to his desired 200 mph ? Would the car need to be SO lightened that it would no longer stay on the ground at 200 mph ?

 

2600 pounds is very doable and would make a massive difference in making 200 mph
not even at that light it would still take a power adder to do it

with the combo i outlined above i firmly belive it would go 200mph across the salt the trick would be getting thew power on soon enough without tire spin to have enough room to reach the mph

my v6 car is a heavy pig at 3455 pounds with me in it , but thats in full street trim with the 2 12 inch subs built into were the rear seats once were, 3225 without me in it

my twin turbo iroc wieghs in at 3512 without me in it and only 2 gallons of fuel in the tank but that thing just has brute power and it wouldnt matter

 

I know ive been to 120 for sure, guy I was racing still had a 115 limted chip and I kept it to the floor till he fell far behind.

Just gotta get it to red line in each gear by the numbers

15 inch tires
t5 gears 2.95 1.94 1.34 1.00 .63
rear end 3.42

peak rpm 5500/6000 redline

5500 rpm
48 mph 1st
74 mph 2nd
107 mph 3rd
143 mph 4th
227 mph 5th

 

T56 with a 3.42 could reach 200 in 5th if redlining at 7000.
But agreed, N/A won't make enough power.

 

due to the amount of time at high rpm and full power id be more inclined to keep rpms around 6,500 if possible

a 3:23 rear gear with a t56 would prolly work out very well , with a standard 4/5 speed id be inclined to go with the 2:73's


i have a set of 2:29 gears for my iroc

 

A snowball has a better chance in hell than you do of achieving 200mph on a naturally aspirated V6.

 

I think my car would do 200MPH or close to it.

 

A thread I followed on another forum was about a guy and his quest to reach 200 mph in his '95 Corvette. It wasn't easy, even starting with a performance car packing an LT1.
More so than weight, I think aero is the factor here. Lower it, bigger air dam and extended in front of the wheels, and a "non-crappy-aero" spoiler. You will want a spoiler though, as I hear our cars are a little weird above 150 without one, probably doubly so on salt. Put "pizza pan" style flat covers on the wheels.
A 'bird would be better than a Camaro, and if I remember right, the earlier cars have better cd numbers.
Others have touched on the engine (ie: it can't be done NA), but you'd probably want a fresh rebuild on an auto, or at least low miles. Aluminum driveshaft, make sure it's balanced. And a higher flowing water & oil pump. Aluminum and titanium in the valvetrain would help.
That's all I can think of. For what it's worth, a totally middle class dude did this all himself in his spare time. It can be done.

 

lil more boost and it should do it , i think mine or fast eddis car would do with more boost as well


i may just have to find out one of these years as i only live 2.5 hours from the salt flats , the iroc comes first though i just put a TON of money in the small block 427 so that deff has priority over a v6 car

 

Normally i'd be offended, but this is true.


It's probably safe to say i've got the highest N/A HP 60v6 currently.. around 350 HP @ the crank. The 500+ it will need to get you there just isn't going to happen N/A w/o out way more work than it would take just to toss on a turbo.



Mars is right, his turbo 3900 with the right gears in the rear and a T56 should do 200+ easy. Safely is another story. My car sucks at 100+ (no front sway bar, skinny tires, stock brakes).. You'll need a certified cage, insane brakes, probably a parachute along with everything else just to make the car safe at those speeds.

You couldn't pay me to do 200 in a 3rd gen.

 

What I highlighted is going to be one heck of a problem - the gear spread between 4th and 5th gears. If it was say 2nd to 3rd, it would be fine - but dropping the revs that low on a gear shift meant to be a power gear is going to be a killer. Most exotic cars have a very small gear spread for the gear for top speed - sometimes 1, then 0.85 to keep the revs high for top speed.

 

A T5 would never last at the required power levels. I wouldn't want my transmission failing at near 200 mph either...

A T56 is probably the most reasonable choice for a manual; close-ish gearing (once out of 1st, anyway) and can handle the power.
Another choice could be the r154 Supra transmission, since it can bolt up with a Dodge Dakota bellhousing and handle lots of power. 1st and 2nd are shorter than the T56 but 3-5th are almost the same.

 

driving on the salt is an experience to say the least, when i went out on the salt last year it was like i was driving on a road covered with marbles.

gives u a really wierd feeling while ur flying across it, the car slides around a bit but its not like u cant control it

u can get away with stock brakes on the salt as u have more then enough room to slow down, but yes there is a ton of saftey equipment required to go 200+

by the time im done with my iroc ill prolly have just as much in equipment as i do the engine and turbo system

 

What if you had a custom set of gears made that start with 1st going all the way up to 60+ mph. I looks like a lot of cars that go through the texas mile and that really bog down for first gear but top out at 200+or some at the flats even have to be pushed since 1st gear is so tall.

 

Any one ever hear of Burt Munro? Check him out. With the technology out there, I'd say anything is possible. Look at the hp they are getting out of the new N/A V6's now from factory. The runs are from 5-7 miles long. It's all about aerodynamics, gearing, hp, and money.

 

Yes, but Burt Munro was also using a 200 lb vehicle.

I agree new technology has a chance of going 200 MPH with an N/A V6 in a 3rd gen or similar vehicle. But we're are talking about a 30 year old engine design that was even anemic back then. It was only designed to economically move the comparatively light economy cars and light trucks around, not to do it blazingly fast.

I'm not saying that making the kind of power needed is down right impossible, but it is very highly unlikely.

 

I still member a NHRA event on ESPN and them interviewing a guy with a early 3rd gen aro talking about having over 2000HP but having a hard time breaking 200MPH in the 1/4mi because of the aro problems, while cars shaped like a brick broke 200 easier.

 

I think you lost my meaning about Burt. I'm not comparing a motorcycle to a car.

 

No I got your point, but it's much easier to break 200 MPH with very little HP in a 200 lbs vehicles than it is with a 3000 lbs vehicle.

There are still physical limitations with the parts that the OP has chosen to use and the way he has chosen to do it. Even Burt would recognize that, which is likely a large part of the reason he chose a motorcycle over a car to run his 200 MPH.

 

The whole point was to fallow a dream no matter how far fetched it may seem. Burt was into bikes by the way, not cars. He was also a man with very little means, and he did it. That was my point. Now we are getting off track here. Back to the OP's original question; he needs help with a 3.4l that i know very little about. So, what could he do for aerodynamics and gearing, lighting up the car, along with cranking up the horse power of a 3.4l. What would the hp be with a bigger cam, ported heads and intake and a bigger carb?

 

I think I've built the "baddest" iron headed 660 on here. it was a 3.1, ported iron heads, big cam, high compression, headers, custom upper intake manifold, built 700r4 and 3.73s. it struggled over 100mph. it ran a best of a 14.97 @ 89.95 in the 1/4 but if I opened it up on an open road, it struggled over 100. just a little food for thought. I know the 3.73s hurt it on the top end but on the other hand, 3.73 is not really a big gear, either.

 

The NASCAR Iroc series car's, Bodies now, only bodies, Were hitting 200mph, so aerodynamically they should do it okay. So suppose you had 2.73 gears and seven miles, what kind of HP would you need?

 

Op are you trying to stay with the complete 2.8L? Or are you entertaining a hybrid?

The parts list is really going to depend on if he stays hybrid or goes ole fashion gen1.

He needs to up the compression a good bit. Can was go hybrid here? Because those heads will really help it. Dont expect to ever go above 160 hp with those stock heads. If you massivly port them you may reach 200 if you get a good set up going and some good compression ratio numbers. But believe me the stock heads are horrid for flow. If you look at 3100 or 3400 heads compared to ours youll be amazed.

Get a larger cam delta 272 or something like that. Roller tip stamped rockers 1.6:1. Port the living out of the intakes. Knife the thottle body blade, and open it up a few mm as its overlaping the gasket a bit stock.

Swap in either a 165 or 7730 ecm and dial in a new mask. $58 or something of that nature. Get into ecm tuning via tunerpro rt and get a wideband. Also up the fuel injectors to about 28lbs'ers. rather too much fueling then not enough. Toss on a better fuel pump also(walbro or something of that stature).

Get a msd street fire coil or something like that. Also lower ohm plug wires. I don't think hed need a 6al box though. But if your really wanting that big of a hp N/A engine, might as well go for that too.

Headers...headers! Also free up the exhaust piping. Im not sure what the rules are but either rig up a cut out or have it so that you can run free exhaust for the run.

Id worrie about the engine before you go shaving lbs. Camaro are pretty easy to shave down to 3k lbs. Doesnt take much and to be honest you need to build up a mean power plant first. 300Hp engine at least to reach those 150mph+ runs.


Drive train.... do you have a stick or auto?

Gears... 2.73-3.08? Or something very low. You have 2 miles to make up for speed right?

Aerodynamics? Cant help ya there but im sure theres ppl on here that can help you get some ideas of what will work good.

 

For Aero...you'll probably want the car as low as possible. Keep in mind that air getting under the car creates lift and that is not what you want at those speeds. I'd look into an old circle track Camaro nose pc as they don't have headlight cutouts. Car wont be street legal then but if you can put it on for the event then haul it....put stock back on later... might also want to consider fabbing a belly pan, and possibly a diffuser for the rear. make sure stock body panels line up as well as possible to prevent air getting in anywhere and causing turbulence.

 

haha hello again i appreciate all of the input from everyone.. i must say some of the jokes are a bit funny, but bring up good points. lowering the car is one of the first things i plan on doing.. i know work is going to be slow because im sure most of you already know money can be a bit hard to come by, but i will do my best to keep everything updated here. also I have been doing some looking around on the internet and i found out about the vortec 4300 motor.. its a 4.3l v6 gm used in the syclones and the typhoons. i am thinking i may have a much better chance with that in my car instead of a 3.4 any thoughts?

 

If you just want to pass the 200mph mark then just get a V8. By far the easiest and cheapest way to get there. I would like that too but my own long term plan is to run in a lower engine class to see what I can get to in that class. I've got a friend planning on running a Corvette which I may be able to drive just for the higher speed. It should make 150 - 160 relatively easily. All depends on what you want to experience.

 

The Vortec didn't come out until after the Sy/Tys stopped production.

The Sy/Tys used a turbocharged 4.3L.

If you're looking at a 4.3, just go V8 and then you will have the ability to make the power naturally aspirated like you want to.

If you are now changing your mind and want to go turbo, the 660 with the right parts can produce the power to do so, also while likely being lighter, if the parts are chosen wisely.

I don't know why people are assuming this will be a street car. When I hear "200 MPH 3rd gen" I think purpose built car that will only see duty on the flats.

 

The technological difference between 150 mph and 200 mph is about as large as the difference between horse-and-buggy and a Z28.

Strap on a couple JTOL bottles and aim for the horizon.