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Technical Questions - Cold Air Intake

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Old 05-29-2016, 02:45 PM   #1
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Technical Questions - Cold Air Intake

Hey bros!

I have started my first major project after doing all the little thing and it's the installation of a CAI (Cold-Air-Intake) system. Now i think i have understood the basics of installing a CAI, but i have some technical questions which i'm hoping to get answers from you nice folks!

1. Does it increase more horsepower, if you add multiple intakes?
I am planning on building the Version 1 intake system, but Version 2 seems quite interesting as well. My question is, will it give more horsepower (or is it significant)? Having the air intake coming from infront of the car should increase HP because of the air flow shouldn't it?

Version 1: http://www.transamws6.com/pics/formula/ac-delete.jpg
Version 2: https://www.thirdgen.org/ramair/

2. Why use PVC valves?
I am by education a chemical engineer. Why use PVC as a material? Shouldnt you use something like a PC valve? Its more safer since PVC can evaporate chloride. I wouldnt put plastic materials near a heated system where hazardous substances can evaporate. Thats just my 2 cents.

3. How to protect your air filter?
Lets say i build the Version 2 system. How do you protect the air filters? I understand that i would have to build a grill into the front bumper (for the air to come in). How would you protect the air filters from not getting wet? Would you have it in an angle? Also with Version 1, how do you protect the air filter since the stock uses a box.

4. What to do with the MAF sensor?
The MAF sensor is shown in the pictures i attached. The easiest MAF sensors usually go to the throttle body, but my Firebird has it next to the radiatior. Should i basically just connect the MAF sensor to the valves as a joint?

What is your opinion in building a CAI system on a 3rd gen?
Attached Thumbnails
Technical Questions - Cold Air Intake-engine-bay.jpg   Technical Questions - Cold Air Intake-engine-mafs.jpg   Technical Questions - Cold Air Intake-engige-angle-2.jpg   Technical Questions - Cold Air Intake-engine-angle-1.jpg  
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Old 05-29-2016, 06:12 PM   #2
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Re: Technical Questions - Cold Air Intake

Hi, version 1 isnt cold air. And wont gain you anything, except a washable air filter !

Version 2 is for the camaros which had a different intake system to us , having a squarer hood they could get straight over the rad to cold air .

Ive looked at version 2 myself, possibly at a latter date but I would have to modify the inside of the hood to work it.

I do have space to get around the side of my rad with a pipe, could be an option for you. ?
I am running without the charcoal canister so have run a nice 3" pipe from the tb round down to the maff then a cone on the end stuck as far into the hole into the wing as it will. Latter I will replace with a can filter like
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Universal-Carbon-Fiber-Forced-Cold-Air-Intake-System-3-Filter-Box-Induction-VW-/112011170248?hash=item1a1462d1c8:g:beUAAOSw9r1V~2mf
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Old 05-29-2016, 06:16 PM   #3
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Re: Technical Questions - Cold Air Intake

Oh yeah , any increase in hp is from access to colder denser air, so there is more oxygen the ecu will add more fuel and you have more hp.
Ram air will gain you even more if done right.

Everyone always talks hp but I also like to talk about drivability, an increase in throttle response can be just as useful as the gains in hp too.
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Old 05-29-2016, 07:11 PM   #4
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Re: Technical Questions - Cold Air Intake

When my camaro still had the V6, I made something similar to your Version 1 pic. But, instead of keeping the air filter inside the engine bay, I cut a hole in the tray there big enough to get a 3" pipe through. That way the filter is mounted under the car behind the fender to get a true "cold air" intake. Being a 92, it didn't have a MAF sensor, so I didn't have to mess with that. I can't say how much of an improvement it made over the stock intake though because I never drove the car with the stock intake on it.

PVC is used so much because it's cheap, easily available, easily cut and assembled, and the elbows have a nice smooth radius inside them.

Adding multiple intakes is not usually necessary, if you use a large enough single intake. 3" is plenty for a NA V8, let alone a V6. You can also decrease performance by using multiple intakes if not designed correctly. If the air from the intakes can't merge smoothly it will decrease air flow and velocity from the two air streams "crashing" into each other.
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Old 06-01-2016, 12:04 PM   #5
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Re: Technical Questions - Cold Air Intake

I have an 88 2.8 firebird and i believe it has an exelent CAi system you sould think about trying. ( Note on Camaro it will be routed on drivers side due to different battery locations between the two cars ). As you can see i ran it to the fender and down then attached a filter and it really wakes this thing up. Nothing but cold air. Also kept the MAF.
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Technical Questions - Cold Air Intake-cai_n.jpg   Technical Questions - Cold Air Intake-28be4go.jpg   Technical Questions - Cold Air Intake-2dgkmma.jpg  
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Old 06-01-2016, 08:35 PM   #6
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Re: Technical Questions - Cold Air Intake

OEM style paper filters are the best at filtering air, which means longest engine life. Do not underestimate the filthy air you live in, it is not clean and its particulate have a long term impact on engine health.

Many high performance engines which are also street driven need more than a stock paper element to supply their demand for air, so a custom box which can house a large paper(s) can be made using off the shelf OEM paper filters designed for high power vehicles that comes factory with paper elements.

2. PCV valves are part of the crankcase pressure system which is economy/cleanliness/emissions related and are very important to use just like a good air filter is. During idle/cruise the engine vacuum in the intake manifold (or anywhere it can be found) is used to supply the crankcase with a pressure below atmospheric, which helps remove combustion byproduct gasses which tend to collect in the crankcase as you drive. This is called positive crankcase ventillation. Those byproducts are generally fragments of carbon that have partially reacted with fuels and dissolve in engine oil, thus it is important we remove as much of them as we can to keep the oil cleaner. Proper PCV is associated with cleaner oil as its primary benefit.

3. the best setup is often OEM if you have no fabrication ability. the last thing you want to do is remove the high quality OEM filtration paper element system and replace it with a sloppy cone filter on the end of a stick. You can use other OEM vehicle's ducting and filters, or design your own (3d print a box is a good idea) to house a large paper element custom fit, that would be the best for a street engine you care about.

The maf sensor is a very sensitive to fluctuation in airflow, or perturbations. For example if you install a maf sensor very close to a compressor wheel, it will likely display voltage fluctuations that are noticable, and make tuning difficult, as the compressor wheel whips around the air near the sensor. The MAF needs to be placed in a tube of sufficient length that it cannot "see" any turbulence, so often there is a need for a severe length on either side without much bend. Used properly a maf sensor is superior to a map sensor configuration, solely based on the reliability with which fueling is achieved, and the ease of tuning. MAP sensor configurations are more difficult/time consuming to tune in most cases, and offer little in the way of extra tuning capacity if any, although there is something to be said for not having a maf sensor in the way of the air path, so many are willing to do away with the maf for that reason alone, so they can make their inlet tubes any shape they find necessary.
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Old 03-23-2017, 08:01 AM   #7
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Re: Technical Questions - Cold Air Intake

Hello All
Here's a brain teaser.
I have a TR7 with a 1989 2.8MPFI V6. The TB is quite near to the radiator so the stock snorkel doesnt work: the TB is about 12" from the radiator. There's also little to no room for the air filter housing.

For the time being Im using 3" aluminum flexi ducting straight from the TB to the MAF then a short piece of plastic pipe that I found with some sponge stuffed into it by way of a poor mans air filter. It looks crap. It IS crap.

I see some nice curved plastic and/or metal CAI pieces in the pics and elsewhere but they look expensive and besides my snorkel is toast.

Can anyone recommend a method and/or materials for routing the air to the TB? Im having a rough time through trial and error finding the right combination of connectors, elbows, tubing and so on. Bits from the hardward store or off of another car would work. Been tinkering with this for a few days now and its starting to get on my nerves lol

Thanks
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Old 03-23-2017, 09:11 AM   #8
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Re: Technical Questions - Cold Air Intake

I used EB ay , i bought a aluminium 90 same size as throttle body and then a meter length of silicone tube. It was all quite inexpensive. The silicone hose gets cut to whatever lengths you need, so you can have the 90 sitting against the throttle with the silicone tube holding it together. Mine was supplied with clamps too.
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Old 03-23-2017, 02:28 PM   #9
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Re: Technical Questions - Cold Air Intake

Nice one Z.
I had a look on ebay and found what I think I need.

Thanks man!
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Old 03-23-2017, 02:30 PM   #10
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Re: Technical Questions - Cold Air Intake

Quote:
Originally Posted by carltr7 View Post
.......Bits ...... off of another car would work........

......Been tinkering with this for a few days now and its starting to get on my nerves lol.......
If you went to the local "pick & pull" you could likely find enough of what you need from a different car (or two) , so your first sentence I quoted is pretty close to how I'd do it , were the situation mine .

And dude ? you own a British car with an American engine fitted to it , your supposed to have nerves of steel and ballz of iron to approach such a beast of a project , a little intake air ducting oughta be a piece of cake compared to what it's taken to get it to the point of just needing some intake plumbing .

Oh , and if ya don't have a local Pick & pull , I'd suggest a bit of "auto parts tourism" (like the way folks who don't have access to good medical care go to different countries for medical procedures , AKA "Medical Tourism")

Last thought , since your question is more "GM 60 degree V6" than it is third gen Firebird/Camaro related , and since there has been an effort lately to keep to the Third Gen F body intended topic of this Website , a source for engine specific information is ;


Forums - 60DegreeV6.com

I wish you well with your project ....
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Old 03-23-2017, 02:32 PM   #11
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Re: Technical Questions - Cold Air Intake

Nice , ya beat me to the post by two minutes
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Old 03-23-2017, 02:49 PM   #12
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Re: Technical Questions - Cold Air Intake

Thanks for the tips.

Im a brit living in Canada. I like british classic cars but Im not so wet behind the ears as to run one with the stock motor lol. Its -10C today with a foot of snow on the ground otherwise I'd be under the hood of something up the local boneyard.

Thanks for the pointer to 60degreeV6. I'll use that. However I do have to say the guys here, especially ZS in the V6 section have been super helpful.

Actually putting the V6 into the TR7 wasnt as bad as getting the 3.8L/T350 out that the PO had put in there. I just had to fab mount points on the TR7 subframe, and do some selective jeckyll-and-hyding of things like the clutch reservoir, brakes, springs, pedalbox, ECU, electrics .... lol now as I come to think of its yeah I should have kept it how it was. ha ha ha.

For the record, the GM V6, at least in 2.8MPFI form with a T5, will fit in a TR7, and rather nicely too. You can *just* get it in behind the steering rack, back and low, without bashing the firewall about or reconfiguring the gearstick portal.

Cheers!

Oh, and I made the exhaust system out of fence posts. Yep I get some odd looks at the car shows.

Last edited by carltr7; 03-23-2017 at 02:55 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 03-27-2017, 08:40 AM   #13
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Re: Technical Questions - Cold Air Intake

Simples.
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Old 03-27-2017, 08:54 AM   #14
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Re: Technical Questions - Cold Air Intake

Hey Z
Thanks for posting this man, thats a really useful pic.

I managed to frankenstein an intake duct rubber boot off of something from the boneyard at the weekend. It was a 3.1 or 3.4 GM 60'V6. Might have been a Grand Prix or something. I hacked together some PVC pipe to get to the MAF and now Im golden (dont judge me on the PVC pipe lol, its temporary until the Alum arrives and I wanted to get some flow so I could run the engine and check out my MAF and EGR arrangements; the one good thing about PVC is its cheap and easy to hack and dry fit as a template for something less ghetto).

Still, since your pic shows exactly where you put the boot, Alum pipe, MAF and sundry connections its a really helpful guide as to whats ideal.

The issue with the TR7 is that hood plunges so fast that it impinges on the TB (I have mine on upside down with the water heater cavity deleted - that tells you how tight it is height-wise) and also the hose to the rad is pretty radically shortened because theres way less room that in a 3G engine bay. This mean the boot I found has to immediately plunge from the TB to the piping which then has to find its way "under" that coolant hose to the MAF without messing with the cooling air flow. I have a solution for now but its ugly.

I'll post pics once Ive got it all working.

Last edited by carltr7; 03-27-2017 at 08:57 AM. Reason: typos
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Old 03-27-2017, 09:49 AM   #15
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Re: Technical Questions - Cold Air Intake

British car with an American engine is not terribly unusual. AC Cobra, Jensen Interceptor plus more. The other way round is more unusual like the Nash Metropolitan. The TR7 was originally designed with the 3.5 liter aluminum "Buick" V8 in mind but there were issues and it didn't happen until the TR8 if I remember correctly. My buddy has a TR8 with some mods and it's a little rocket but TIGHT in the engine bay.
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Old 03-27-2017, 09:52 AM   #16
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Re: Technical Questions - Cold Air Intake

As for CAI I'm looking at moving the charcoal canister and running the intake there instead.
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Old 03-27-2017, 10:22 AM   #17
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Re: Technical Questions - Cold Air Intake

Quote:
Originally Posted by Base91 View Post
British car with an American engine is not terribly unusual. AC Cobra, Jensen Interceptor plus more. The other way round is more unusual like the Nash Metropolitan. The TR7 was originally designed with the 3.5 liter aluminum "Buick" V8 in mind but there were issues and it didn't happen until the TR8 if I remember correctly. My buddy has a TR8 with some mods and it's a little rocket but TIGHT in the engine bay.
Yep. The TR guys keep trying to bully me into fitting a Rover(Buick heritage)V8 from a LandRover or something into the TR7. I can actually make more power in a more compact package with the 2.8MPFI compared to a stock TR8 - and the WC-T5's pedigree speaks for itself.

Besides, Landy V8s with manual transmissions at reasonable $ are like rocking horse doo-doo where I live. Maybe if one falls in my lap I'll think about it but for now I kinda like the idea that I can go to the parts store and solve basically any engine problem Im likely to have there and then for 20 bucks.

Its hard to be specific about engines in these days of globalisation. The GM 2.4 Ecotec has DNA in it from all over the place.
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